EPTIf they're both viable, what maps do you guys think you should muta/ling/baneling and what maps do you think you should ling/infestor on (if any at all)?
The Zerg Help Me Thread - Page 212
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Effay
United States153 Posts
If they're both viable, what maps do you guys think you should muta/ling/baneling and what maps do you think you should ling/infestor on (if any at all)? | ||
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Falcon-sw
United States324 Posts
On March 15 2012 12:41 Effay wrote: On IdrA's stream the other day he said mutas aren't so good vs. T anymore except on certain maps...if this is true it would make me quite sad since mutas are my favorite unit. Up to this point i've been under the impression that muta/ling/baneling was THE way to play vs. marine/tank/medivac, and ling/infestor was gimmicky at best. So which is it? If they're both viable, what maps do you guys think you should muta/ling/baneling and what maps do you think you should ling/infestor on (if any at all)? Mutas just melt to marines and turrets and are not exactly cost effective vs. Thors. Just too many ways to handle them as Terran, and if you mis-mico your mutas once, they all die instantly. | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On March 15 2012 12:41 Effay wrote: On IdrA's stream the other day he said mutas aren't so good vs. T anymore except on certain maps...if this is true it would make me quite sad since mutas are my favorite unit. Up to this point i've been under the impression that muta/ling/baneling was THE way to play vs. marine/tank/medivac, and ling/infestor was gimmicky at best. So which is it? If they're both viable, what maps do you guys think you should muta/ling/baneling and what maps do you think you should ling/infestor on (if any at all)? I think it's good to know and do both styles, but I think I will always prefer the muta style just because of how annoying it is to deal with drops with ling/infestor, especially as the game goes on and marines become stronger with upgrades. I think both styles are fine though just both have their weaknesses. | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
On March 15 2012 13:21 Falcon-sw wrote: Mutas just melt to marines and turrets and are not exactly cost effective vs. Thors. Just too many ways to handle them as Terran, and if you mis-mico your mutas once, they all die instantly. So don't mic-micro them? When I was struggling a bit in ZvT, I practiced some games with high masters and GMs. If you can be active with your mutas and keep them alive, there's really nothing terran can do, you just end up crushing any push and force T to stay in his base so long that you can get BL tech. I have noticed a lot of pros going toward roaches to secure their third against hellions and then going fast hive, on maps where it's limited on how many bases you can take, or the fourth is really hard. | ||
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Moosegills
United States558 Posts
On March 15 2012 12:41 Effay wrote: On IdrA's stream the other day he said mutas aren't so good vs. T anymore except on certain maps...if this is true it would make me quite sad since mutas are my favorite unit. Up to this point i've been under the impression that muta/ling/baneling was THE way to play vs. marine/tank/medivac, and ling/infestor was gimmicky at best. So which is it? If they're both viable, what maps do you guys think you should muta/ling/baneling and what maps do you think you should ling/infestor on (if any at all)? Ling infestor isn't gimmicky at all, just certain timings (bf hellion stim, etc) can be near impossible to deal with unless you have some addition tech like roaches or banes, because these timings hit before infestors are out. This generally just means that you have to make your scouting is perfect if you plan on playing ling infestor because you generally won't have the bane nest to deal with these pre-infestor timings. I'm not sure if ling infestor will ever be considered the way to go vs T, but the style definitely seems like its making a surge now. | ||
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CursOr
United States6335 Posts
I'm probably headed to Broodlord tech anyways. 10 mutas or more is a great way to force turrets and deter drops. Just for that they are worth it. I much prefer infestor play, because I feel it is more defensive and stable, but if I can I will usually spire first. Which pretty much means I will do it vs anything except mass marines. | ||
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sanddbox_sc2
United States173 Posts
On March 15 2012 13:30 Belial88 wrote: So don't mic-micro them? When I was struggling a bit in ZvT, I practiced some games with high masters and GMs. If you can be active with your mutas and keep them alive, there's really nothing terran can do, you just end up crushing any push and force T to stay in his base so long that you can get BL tech. I have noticed a lot of pros going toward roaches to secure their third against hellions and then going fast hive, on maps where it's limited on how many bases you can take, or the fourth is really hard. You're probably simply playing bad Terrans. The simple fact of the matter is that ling infestor is much stronger than ling muta and also offers a much better hive tech transition. | ||
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Elem
Sweden4717 Posts
Not to mention that going mutas is a massive gas investment which will not last you into the late game (unlike Infestors) for a hope of the Terran screwing up position-wise. Ling (bane) infestor means you can focus your gas to moving onwards in the tech tree as you will not spend as much gas on infestors as you will on mutas at that stage. It is also much easier to choose an Ultralisk transition too since Ultras do not synergise with mutas at all. As you have ~20+ mutas just sitting there you feel obliged to head towards a Brood Lord/Infestor/X composition. As Ling Infestor focuses heavily on upgrades it feels relatively easy to deny pushes from the terran player and safely saturate your 3rd. The only big problem imo is with drop heavy play before Infestors are out but I think that is a case of spreading overlords to better spots and getting better positions on buildings/spines. Also the roach after 1st spine version of 15 hatch is really awesome. Easy 3rd and they can't deny your creep spread if you go 4 queens (like MorroW does for example) without risking losing 1-2 hellions per scan. | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On March 15 2012 16:05 sanddbox_sc2 wrote: You're probably simply playing bad Terrans. The simple fact of the matter is that ling infestor is much stronger than ling muta and also offers a much better hive tech transition. I wouldn't go that far to say ling/infestor is "much" stronger then muta/ling/bane. Both have their advantages and disadvantages imo. With ling/infestor mass drop play is a much bigger pain in the ass to deal with then muta/ling/bane. I have seen many top foreign zergs just picked apart by koreans who just drop the hell out of them when they see that ling/infestor style. With muta you don't have that problem (most of the time and it won't be as big a pain as without  ).So Yeah wouldn't go saying it's not much stronger I feel that's very false, but it is a very strong style and should definitely be something you use so you aren't predictable  | ||
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[F_]aths
Germany3947 Posts
Can someone advise me which ZvZ BO is generally good and worth to be practiced, so that I can practice at least one BO instead of switching by BOs around, and care about the optimal BO for the each map later? I am still in silver. I don't need a complete "if you scout this, do that" guide, just a good BO and the general idea behind it. | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
At your level just stick with 14g/14p/21h with baneling nest afterwards. I find that there's always some sort of pressure about 30-35 supply with lings or ling/bane, so you are good if you have a spine and 4 banes by that point. Afterwards you just want to make sure the opponent is droning up and going for lair/third, and not doing a roach/ling all-in, and then go lair and third yourself (faster third if early game is really aggressive, since you are both banking up minerals, faster lair if it's more pasive, imo). Here's kind of an outline of how I play it: Opening (I go hatch first, but you can go 14/14/21 since you are lower level, and just keep 1 in gas, then banelings) Make sure to put overlord by opponents natural to see if they expand to make sure you are safe to drone up and expand yourself (or if you went hatch first, if you need to pump defense/units), and 1st overlord made in front of his base to watch if he pushes out with units. When he takes natural, move overlord by natural to behind natural mineral line to watch his drone count, and send 3rd and 4th overlord near his main to see lair timing and in front of your base to see if he morphs banes, which one you send where depending on size of map or aggression. By 30 supply, get 4 banes and spine Drone up to about 40 supply, poke with overlords and speedlings to make sure he's droning and not going roach/ling all-in or super fast mutas ~45 supply, get evo chamber, 2xgas ~55 supply, get roach warren Take third if opponent drones up, gets third, or goes lair with minimal units or spines. Go lair if opponent is making lots of roaches behind his drones. That's sort of how I play it. The rest is based on reactions. so vs... 2 base infestor = drone up 3 bases hard, then mass roaches, then push and kill off his infestors. he will counterattack, but your superior econ means you'll rebuild your army instantly and then be able to push back while teching to your own infestors 2 base muta super fast = just defend on 2 base until I can get my later lair mutas out 2 base muta normal = 3 base defend with queen/spore until I can get infestors out. Morph a bunch of banes because a ling/bane/muta attack can just own your queens and infestors before you have many roaches out. 2 base speedroach = defensive roaches, maybe some spine support, possibly hydras. I don't drone up third until I make sure opponent isn't doing this. | ||
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Ckalvin
Australia150 Posts
On March 15 2012 16:54 [F_]aths wrote: With getting more and more zerg opponents to play on ladder, I need a strategy. I feel absolutely clueless when I play a ZvZ what I should do. I tried to hatch-first (15h14p), gas-pool (14/14) with hatch on 21 or 28, 10-pool with early pressure and even 7RR. I usually fail with any build order. My best strategy so far is a +1 speedling all-in but of course that is an autoloss versus either ramp block with roaches or versus early banes. Can someone advise me which ZvZ BO is generally good and worth to be practiced, so that I can practice at least one BO instead of switching by BOs around, and care about the optimal BO for the each map later? I am still in silver. I don't need a complete "if you scout this, do that" guide, just a good BO and the general idea behind it. Personally on ladder I'm preferring an 11overpool into 13 gas. Stop droning at 15, queen then ling then ovie. First 100 gas goes into speed, pull 1 drone off gas, get bling nest at 50 gas and pump lings nonstop. You can pump a tonne of lings with the early queen, hold off any cheesey 6-9 pool with overpool, do stacks of damage if he chooses to go roach since he won't be able to have a ball in time. Try it and let me know how it goes. ps baneling/ling micro is wicked fun, don't get why people don't like zvz. | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
You should have a very strong reason to be going pool any earlier than 14, and I just don't see it with 11 overpool. However, 10 pool is a very viable build in ZvZ. You drone scout (or overlord scout if you can) to see if the opponent is going hatch first (you could also just gamble and coinflip and hope he is, because that's basically what 10 pool is, a coinflip). Once you see the hatch first, you just pull 8 of 12 drones (since you drone up to 12 drones after pool) and rally constant lings, and it should be a straight up build order win really against pool later than like 2:40 (theoretically i think it'd win against 17 pool too, ie that's why you can't cancel hatch and throw down pool asap and survive it). I suppose 11 pool isn't much different than 10 pool in terms of timing, but why do 11 pool when 10 pool is just better at the same thing? If the opponent goes 14/14, then you just doublequeen expand and get defensive banes (since your speed will be later than 14/14). You could also just open 10 pool baneling in case the opponent is going 14/14, it's safer I think against 14/14 while also still being a bo win against hatch first (you just have that small chance you fuck up and lose though if going 10 pool bane against hatch first, although that's really a small chance...). You will be way behind the 14/14, but you can still play it out. As for dealing with 6-9 pools, well, I've already written about that here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=295586 And any sort of 9+ pool is easily dealt with when going 14 pool. But yea. I don't agree with the advice of 11 overpool into 13 gas... either go 14/14, 10 pool as a coinflip, or hatch first in zvz. | ||
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DogBite
37 Posts
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Bahamuth
134 Posts
I actually came to this thread with the same question as [F_]aths, so thanks for answering that. Do you think it would be possible that you post/pm a replay or two of you (or anyone else if anyone has one) using this style? That would be very helpful. | ||
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PresenceSc2
Australia4032 Posts
After scouting no expo from your opponent do you build a 2nd queen? Do you go for a quick bane nest yourself? do you just spam lings and try cancel his banes morphing in? It seems so silly that ling bane allins are easier to hold off with a hatch first build than a gas first build (to me anyway). Thanks in advance for any help bump | ||
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RibsNGibs
64 Posts
I keep usually keep my forward lings on hotkey 1, and all my injecting queens on 6. I often "66" and inject all my larva, then "11" and move my lings somewhere. Every once in awhile it'll turn out all my forward lings died, so my 1 hotkey didn't select anything, so all my queens were still selected, and then 30 seconds later, I'll notice all my queens are walking across the middle of the map. Does this happen to other people? Is it just something I have to deal with, or does anybody have any tricks for preventing it? Thanks, | ||
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Lithios
Canada3 Posts
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PresenceSc2
Australia4032 Posts
On March 16 2012 07:02 Lithios wrote: When playing against toss, how would you defend a 2 gate zealot rush and still be able to win the game with a good eco? This is the mian way I lose to toss and I was wondering if you know any counter builds or strats that render the rush useless. I usually attempt to put up spines and get roach, but then the toss cannons up and goes air and my eco can't handle it. Any tips? 15pool 15 hatch Try to surround them before they can get in a good position behind your minerals. You should be able to hold with just lings and queens. Also another option is to counter attack with some of your lings but it can be risky | ||
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PresenceSc2
Australia4032 Posts
On March 16 2012 06:53 RibsNGibs wrote: Hi, stupid question here; was wondering if anybody had any mental tricks or anything to help with this. I keep usually keep my forward lings on hotkey 1, and all my injecting queens on 6. I often "66" and inject all my larva, then "11" and move my lings somewhere. Every once in awhile it'll turn out all my forward lings died, so my 1 hotkey didn't select anything, so all my queens were still selected, and then 30 seconds later, I'll notice all my queens are walking across the middle of the map. Does this happen to other people? Is it just something I have to deal with, or does anybody have any tricks for preventing it? Thanks, It's just practice man. When i started playing SC2 i had to look at the keys half the time >.>. Now i can use 1 -7 without thinking about it. A trick might be to just look at your ctrl groups and see if you do have the right things hotkeyd. | ||
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