EPTObv the supply block hurt me a lot. However, is Idra's view true that when Toss hits FF Zerg can't win? This wasn't my best game but a lot seem to go down this way where I can't engage because of FF...any tips? I'm trying to get away from all inning ever ZvP and trying to emulate a Stephano style. (I think I need to start taking my gas earlier so I can get a higher roach count but FF would still stop me??) Any tips would be great. Master lvl Z
The Zerg Help Me Thread - Page 210
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Drmooose
United States390 Posts
Obv the supply block hurt me a lot. However, is Idra's view true that when Toss hits FF Zerg can't win? This wasn't my best game but a lot seem to go down this way where I can't engage because of FF...any tips? I'm trying to get away from all inning ever ZvP and trying to emulate a Stephano style. (I think I need to start taking my gas earlier so I can get a higher roach count but FF would still stop me??) Any tips would be great. Master lvl Z | ||
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meatbox
Australia349 Posts
On March 12 2012 00:32 Guamshin wrote: @Flonomenalz I didn't say i was bored i just want to know if there are any other options then just going macro style. @Ambtenaar In what way is my comment whiny? Did i say it was boring? You better read through the posts once more. The truth is zerg has the least options, infestors are key so if you suck at them you need to learn to use them fast! I want to know how drg pulls off his 6-7 roach hit after he's expanded... | ||
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KhAmun
United States1005 Posts
On March 12 2012 15:17 meatbox wrote: The truth is zerg has the least options, infestors are key so if you suck at them you need to learn to use them fast! I want to know how drg pulls off his 6-7 roach hit after he's expanded... Is this a question directed at the thread? If so, I know two roach pressure builds after hatch first: The first one hits earlier, with 5-7 roaches. 15 hatch 16pool 17 gas 2 queens, 2 lings 25 roach warren 26 double overlord. You will have enough for 5 roaches right off of the bat, 2 soon there after. I generally pressure with the first 5, then keep the 4lings and 2 roaches for hellion defense. The other one is hatch first with a double gas at 30, and a roach warren when you start mining gas, 2-5 more drones, 2 overlords, and roaches when the warren finishes. Sorry for not as much of a mapped out build order, I don't use that one very often at all. | ||
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meatbox
Australia349 Posts
On March 12 2012 15:28 KhAmun wrote: Is this a question directed at the thread? If so, I know two roach pressure builds after hatch first: The first one hits earlier, with 5-7 roaches. 15 hatch 16pool 17 gas 2 queens, 2 lings 25 roach warren 26 double overlord. You will have enough for 5 roaches right off of the bat, 2 soon there after. I generally pressure with the first 5, then keep the 4lings and 2 roaches for hellion defense. The other one is hatch first with a double gas at 30, and a roach warren when you start mining gas, 2-5 more drones, 2 overlords, and roaches when the warren finishes. Sorry for not as much of a mapped out build order, I don't use that one very often at all. What are the timings like? This is effective especially when the opponent scouts and doesn't expect early pressure. | ||
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KhAmun
United States1005 Posts
On March 12 2012 15:32 meatbox wrote: What are the timings like? This is effective especially when the opponent scouts and doesn't expect early pressure. I don't know what the in game timings are for each thing, but the timing works out where if they go tech lab straight after reactor on their barracks there is a marauder out in time, at which point you have to back off and use them for defense. Additionally these builds are are pretty goo don tal'darim altar, as there is no ramp for, so your roaches can be more easily micro'd vs a wallin+units behind it. | ||
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Vond
Sweden145 Posts
On March 12 2012 15:28 KhAmun wrote: Is this a question directed at the thread? If so, I know two roach pressure builds after hatch first: The first one hits earlier, with 5-7 roaches. 15 hatch 16pool 17 gas 2 queens, 2 lings 25 roach warren 26 double overlord. You will have enough for 5 roaches right off of the bat, 2 soon there after. I generally pressure with the first 5, then keep the 4lings and 2 roaches for hellion defense. The other one is hatch first with a double gas at 30, and a roach warren when you start mining gas, 2-5 more drones, 2 overlords, and roaches when the warren finishes. Sorry for not as much of a mapped out build order, I don't use that one very often at all. I've been trying to emulate jEcho (who tries to emulate DRG) lately in ZvT, with quite a lot of success. Heavy roach pressure that hits quite a bit later, lets you take third etc. Overall it lets you be safe quite some time into the midgame. Build-order... sort of: 15h 17p (works against 2rax aswell, just pull some more drones than normal, you'll be mining decently still) 4 lings + 2 queens 1 spine at normal time 2 more queens when the first two finish 3 gas around 40-44 supply Ling speed @100 gas Roach warren at 52 Ovies so you have xx/92 or xx/100 Plant evo-chamber aswell incase of banshees Baneling nest when roach warren finishes Make 12-14 roaches, mass lings Make sure both bases are saturated (16 drones per mineral line + the 9 in gas) Rally your units near T's nat, make as many banelings as you see fit and attack Whilst attacking (at the same time pushing back any annoying hellions) you take your third, a macrohatch, lair and drone up Pull back instantly if he has siege tech, even if you made a lot of units you're now quite safe + got your third + tech up and get sick creep-spread due to the 2 extra queens (they're there to help you defend against early hellions + spread creep. 2 queens+1 spine works fine with slowlings) Then just transition into what you feel is best, I go for double-evo ling/infestor Can win the game right away, but even when it doesn't you usually get to clear out his natural. I don't pull it off even close to perfect, but I still almost always manage to do heavy damage with it. | ||
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NeonFox
2373 Posts
On March 11 2012 07:03 Host- wrote: How do you hold a 14/14 ling bling all in when going 14 hatch 15 pool 15 gas. Even when I get my bling nest before speed, and a spine and my nat straight away I just die. Is it a matter of putting down 2+ spines? I don't see how else to hold it. What's your build after the pool finishes? If you get your baneling nest before speed you should be able to hold. You just need one spine, one queen and a few banelings to hold the first wave. | ||
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Honcepoi
Germany29 Posts
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ETisME
12686 Posts
On March 12 2012 20:26 Honcepoi wrote: you could also throw down a roach warren as your pool finishes and then just pump roaches. I do this witch 15 hatch 16 pool 17 gas and its really easy to defend 14/14 all in I don't like this as much as early baneling nest because roache warren is so expensive at the beginning, if I was the 14/14 and saw you went roaches, I would be very happy. | ||
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Olsson
Sweden931 Posts
I've been having problems fighting against muta. I get spores and I get like eight infestors and then I get hydras and expand. At this point they either have switched to mass roach and just crush me or they just keep massing mutas and either counter attack or just beat me in a straight up fight by having a third several minutes faster than me. How should I deal with mutas? | ||
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Rednaxela_19
United States150 Posts
On March 10 2012 17:39 sanddbox_sc2 wrote: Grandmaster zerg here; I never go hydras against mutas. They're slow, of course, but the main issue is sheerly how vulnerable they are to banelings. It's best to go roach queen infestor vs muta. Hey man, thanks. that was primarily my problem with a hydra tech. They can easily switch to speed banes and destroy them and go on to destroy my eco and bases with their remaining mutas. How many queens do you like getting, and spores too for that matter? | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On March 12 2012 21:53 ETisME wrote: I don't like this as much as early baneling nest because roache warren is so expensive at the beginning, if I was the 14/14 and saw you went roaches, I would be very happy. Yeah but if you were 14/14 all in you are guaranteed a loss unless zerg who opens roaches fucks up a lot. I like the roaches vs 14/14 all in but banelings are a better but easier to lose with option. Mess up with baneling micro and odds are you might lose the game now. Since most zergs 14/14/21 though I have started using baneling nest first as it works as well just easier to lose  . | ||
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Odinez
United States4 Posts
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KnT
Australia243 Posts
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
ZvP, Toss goes gateway expand, Zerg goes third before lair as response. Obviously, Zerg must make many units to defend possible sentry/zealot pushes, so must be careful in both droning and teching. What do you do if Toss actually just turtles and goes 2 base colossi? I've had a few games where I lost to this ridiculousness, and it really pisses me off sometimes that like, play so bad it's good, can win (I can't scout what he's doing, I'm preparing for his push, meanwhile he's actually turtling against my 3 bases, though he probably isn't even aware I took a third). I mean I know why it's bad, but sort of just have a question on what to do: 1. Should I go mutas? 2. Should I just mass pure roaches? 3. Should I make any corruptors? 4. Should I maybe go for a hydra based bust? I think I lost to it because I get kind of confused and make stupid decisions, like getting infestors or overmaking corruptors or making units, then droning, then units, and just fucking myself over economically. What should I be doing? I assume just drone up hardcore on 3 bases, but then what. Should I go pure roach, or should I go roach/corruptor? Or should I go balls to the walls mutas? Thanks. Just can't tell if to incorporate corruptors or not there. | ||
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EndOfLineTv
United States741 Posts
On March 13 2012 19:16 Belial88 wrote: I have a question. Mid-masters. ZvP, Toss goes gateway expand, Zerg goes third before lair as response. Obviously, Zerg must make many units to defend possible sentry/zealot pushes, so must be careful in both droning and teching. What do you do if Toss actually just turtles and goes 2 base colossi? I've had a few games where I lost to this ridiculousness, and it really pisses me off sometimes that like, play so bad it's good, can win (I can't scout what he's doing, I'm preparing for his push, meanwhile he's actually turtling against my 3 bases, though he probably isn't even aware I took a third). I mean I know why it's bad, but sort of just have a question on what to do: 1. Should I go mutas? 2. Should I just mass pure roaches? 3. Should I make any corruptors? 4. Should I maybe go for a hydra based bust? I think I lost to it because I get kind of confused and make stupid decisions, like getting infestors or overmaking corruptors or making units, then droning, then units, and just fucking myself over economically. What should I be doing? I assume just drone up hardcore on 3 bases, but then what. Should I go pure roach, or should I go roach/corruptor? Or should I go balls to the walls mutas? Thanks. Just can't tell if to incorporate corruptors or not there. Sup mate - (Mid Master answer) To punish toss players using that style, I usually make 6 lings instead of 4 -delayed cannons. and in the midgame I macro behind a burrow roach with movement timing attack to counter sents. which are there to delay for colli. | ||
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VoirDire
Sweden1923 Posts
On March 13 2012 19:16 Belial88 wrote: I have a question. Mid-masters. ZvP, Toss goes gateway expand, Zerg goes third before lair as response. Obviously, Zerg must make many units to defend possible sentry/zealot pushes, so must be careful in both droning and teching. What do you do if Toss actually just turtles and goes 2 base colossi? I've had a few games where I lost to this ridiculousness, and it really pisses me off sometimes that like, play so bad it's good, can win (I can't scout what he's doing, I'm preparing for his push, meanwhile he's actually turtling against my 3 bases, though he probably isn't even aware I took a third). I mean I know why it's bad, but sort of just have a question on what to do: 1. Should I go mutas? 2. Should I just mass pure roaches? 3. Should I make any corruptors? 4. Should I maybe go for a hydra based bust? I think I lost to it because I get kind of confused and make stupid decisions, like getting infestors or overmaking corruptors or making units, then droning, then units, and just fucking myself over economically. What should I be doing? I assume just drone up hardcore on 3 bases, but then what. Should I go pure roach, or should I go roach/corruptor? Or should I go balls to the walls mutas? Thanks. Just can't tell if to incorporate corruptors or not there. Depends on what kind of info/opening you have. Do you drone scout and see that he doesn't forge FE? If so you are in a great position. If he doesn't make forge/gate wall on his expo and builds sentries you can pretty much kill his expo if you take 2 gas and attack with a 2 base roach/speedling timing once ling speed finishes. If he makes a forge wall with cannons and builds sentries, he pretty much can't attack you with anything more than a handful of gateway units and you are in the same position as you would be against a forge FE with a standard 3 base opening, but delayed ~60 game seconds. I prefer muta if I scout colossus, but any composition should work as you'll have a massive eco advantage. | ||
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Olsson
Sweden931 Posts
On March 12 2012 14:30 Drmooose wrote: http://drop.sc/130055 Obv the supply block hurt me a lot. However, is Idra's view true that when Toss hits FF Zerg can't win? This wasn't my best game but a lot seem to go down this way where I can't engage because of FF...any tips? I'm trying to get away from all inning ever ZvP and trying to emulate a Stephano style. (I think I need to start taking my gas earlier so I can get a higher roach count but FF would still stop me??) Any tips would be great. Master lvl Z IMO Yes. When protosses are decently skilled and actually know how to forcefield, zerg can't do anything without air units. Perfect example is the two base immortal heavy sentry push, you often lose to it, even pros, when you are maxed with 50/50 roach hydra. | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
On March 13 2012 21:13 VoirDire wrote: Depends on what kind of info/opening you have. Do you drone scout and see that he doesn't forge FE? If so you are in a great position. If he doesn't make forge/gate wall on his expo and builds sentries you can pretty much kill his expo if you take 2 gas and attack with a 2 base roach/speedling timing once ling speed finishes. If he makes a forge wall with cannons and builds sentries, he pretty much can't attack you with anything more than a handful of gateway units and you are in the same position as you would be against a forge FE with a standard 3 base opening, but delayed ~60 game seconds. I prefer muta if I scout colossus, but any composition should work as you'll have a massive eco advantage. I do drone scout. And toss always make forge. Thanks, about what you say though. I guess I just overmake units too much. 3 gate sentry/zealot pressure can really hurt, so I think I make too many units and delay lair too much. I guess I'm not really sure how many units to make and when to start back up on droning. But that's pretty straightforward, thanks. Go mutas. | ||
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Effay
United States153 Posts
So my question is two pronged then: 1. What is the best lair timing if you are trying to play a 3 hatch before lair, roach based build? 2. When should you send an overlord into your opponents base (if ever) to see if he has lair? I usually send in an overseer after i get my lair but if mine is delayed it can be too late. | ||
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