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In ZVZ if I go 14 gas/14 pool when do I get my Baneling nest or expand?
I gotta ask...
Why are you opening 14/14 if you just plan to expand and play macro? Why don't you just go hatch first? If you are worried about 10 pool cheese, why don't you just go 14 pool 16 hatch 15gas?
It doesn't really make sense to open 14/14, and then play defensively. You could at least go 14pool/14gas and just opening baneling expand.
But 14/14/21 speedling expand... 21 you expand... most zergs just take 2 drones off gas if they plan to expand after 14/14. When they get 50 gas, they throw down bane nest, keep single drone in gas or add if necessary.
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hi folks,
I'm interested in ZvZ replays where the non-muta strategy player wins the mutalisk strategy Can anyone share?
This mid-game occures when your aggressive early game strat (ling/bane, ling/roaches) is successful defended while the opponent is teching to muta.
If I'm not trying to catch up with the muta count (good ling run bys and good muta micro + upgrades bring you up to speed) I'ld normally play hydra/infestor/lings/spores. Although the den is quick to build, I'm finding the hydras cost too much minerals and gas to be making hydras infestors lings, vs muta lings.
One tactic I'm trying these days is to bring spore colonies to his bases with the hydra, ling (maybe infestor) army, but its difficult on some maps, and muta's great mobility is a great advantage to the opponent.
Still, the only way to play ZvZ with mutalisk opponent without mutalisk is hydra, so I'm happy if you'ld share the successes you have.
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^ ZvZ these days is all about the third. Since you can't protect your third from mass roaches when going mutas (sinc eyou cant spine both main and nat), most zvz these days is roach/hydra. I think dimaga had a game recently in zvz (search sc2casts for dimaga) where he went roach/infestor/queen, but the real reason he won was because he went fast third vs 2 base lair muta, and just simply had 3 bases running.
Personally, my answer to mutas is always just later lair muta with a much stronger econ, and then I just have 2x the mutas pop out. If they go 30 lair, I go 2 base 50 lair, and have way better econ. If they go 50 normal 2 base lair, I go fast third. Either way, I defend with spores, then pop out mutas like 10-20 supply later and overwhelm them. I've never lost to 2 base muta play by doing this, unless I just simply didn't know they made a lair and screwed up scouting on my part.
But a lot of people will go roach/queen/infestor on 3 base and just deathpush into the 2 base muta player. If they go standard 3 base before lair, then you just simply run in the roaches you made to kill off their third and bust them up. Maybe follow up with roach/infestor/queen or something, you've already won if it's 3 base vs 2 base.
Don't make hydras to deal with mutas though, unless they like super super super rushed their lair (like 6 pool into 1 base lair kind of thing). Speedbanes rape them too much. In general, you should never make hydras against mutas. Although if you go standard 3 base before lair against 2 base muta, hydras can be okay if you just mass roach/hydra, lose the army to his lingbanemuta, and then you remax faster than he does and go kill him with the 2nd or 3rd push, but again, that's a win due to 3 base vs 2 base. Ling/bane/muta is actually the best straight up combat composition in ZvZ, but roaches take a while to die, and you cant secure your third vs roaches when going mutas since they take a long time to come out. Kind of like why you never see pro PvZ deathball play anymore, teching that hard on 2 base just dies and can't secure it's third vs mass roach.
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I have a question: Can anyone link some vods where a zerg holds off a 2 base 7 gate blink stalker all-in? Thanks.
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On February 20 2012 10:10 Belial88 wrote:I gotta ask... Why are you opening 14/14 if you just plan to expand and play macro? Why don't you just go hatch first? If you are worried about 10 pool cheese, why don't you just go 14 pool 16 hatch 15gas? It doesn't really make sense to open 14/14, and then play defensively. You could at least go 14pool/14gas and just opening baneling expand. But 14/14/21 speedling expand... 21 you expand... most zergs just take 2 drones off gas if they plan to expand after 14/14. When they get 50 gas, they throw down bane nest, keep single drone in gas or add if necessary.
with all due respect... I don't know who you are or how good you are at ZvZ... If you are better than Zenio and Day9... http://blip.tv/day9tv/day-9-daily-387-p1-walking-through-a-zvz-w-liquidzenio-5820986 ... then ignore my implicit doubts regarding your skills... 
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Is it not an unreasonable question to ask why you are going for speed if you are just going to expand and play macro?
If you plan to do aggression against hatch first or something, then maybe it makes sense. Or maybe if you like to roach/ling all-in a lot, it makes sense.
But with the way the post comes off - how do I get my bane nest or expand - it sounds like this guy just expands and gets defensive banes.
So if you aren't going to be aggressive at all, why in the world are you getting speed?
Or does my question just completely blow your mind away? Does it just make zero sense why I would ask why you would get speed if you just plan to sit in your base?
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On February 20 2012 19:18 Belial88 wrote:
Is it not an unreasonable question to ask why you are going for speed if you are just going to expand and play macro?
If you plan to do aggression against hatch first or something, then maybe it makes sense. Or maybe if you like to roach/ling all-in a lot, it makes sense.
But with the way the post comes off - how do I get my bane nest or expand - it sounds like this guy just expands and gets defensive banes.
So if you aren't going to be aggressive at all, why in the world are you getting speed?
Or does my question just completely blow your mind away? Does it just make zero sense why I would ask why you would get speed if you just plan to sit in your base?
map control/scouting/etc?
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What map control/scouting do you need if you are just going to expand anyways?
His post sounded like he always expands behind his opening and wants to be safe. If he doesn't want to just do that with hatch first, he could just go 14pool/16hatch (with gas somewhere in there) or 14pool/14gas.
If I was mistaken in how he plays, then sorry. But if he just wants to expand right away, I'm saying, why bother opening 14/14, you could just go 14p/14g and just go straight banes.
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Actually i have realized alot of mistakes i make during games and i think this is so very hard for zerg. I am just inexperienced and that game i was totally exhausted of gaming... That day i had been playing for 13 again THIRTEEEN hours cause i want to become a progamer. I'd like to thank the moderator for his kindness, i really greatly appriciated it!
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On February 20 2012 21:42 swift94 wrote:
Actually i have realized alot of mistakes i make during games and i think this is so very hard for zerg. I am just inexperienced and that game i was totally exhausted of gaming... That day i had been playing for 13 again THIRTEEEN hours cause i want to become a progamer. I'd like to thank the moderator for his kindness, i really greatly appriciated it!
13 hours @@ Don't over do it man, take good care of yourself.
I would say archon toilet is just honestly uber insanely strong though, currently the most effective (only?) way to deal with it is to get np, and burrow an infestor and try to mind control the mamaship and just spam vortex
I have seen destiny tries to throw infested terran eggs and one time it worked, another it didn't (the time it didn't, the eggs just vanished after everything got out...)
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On February 20 2012 23:24 ETisME wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2012 21:42 swift94 wrote:
Actually i have realized alot of mistakes i make during games and i think this is so very hard for zerg. I am just inexperienced and that game i was totally exhausted of gaming... That day i had been playing for 13 again THIRTEEEN hours cause i want to become a progamer. I'd like to thank the moderator for his kindness, i really greatly appriciated it! 13 hours @@ Don't over do it man, take good care of yourself. I would say archon toilet is just honestly uber insanely strong though, currently the most effective (only?) way to deal with it is to get np, and burrow an infestor and try to mind control the mamaship and just spam vortex I have seen destiny tries to throw infested terran eggs and one time it worked, another it didn't (the time it didn't, the eggs just vanished after everything got out...)
Best ways to deal with it is just to spread out broodlords, possible position on top of some cliffs where its impossible for archons to enter into vortex. Chain fungal the archons so they cant entry into Vortex. Mass infested terran eggs on top of vortex should push the archons away unless the eggs get killed by somthing like storms or collosus.
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Very standard zvt, i hatch first he goes for the hellion expand.
My macro was good but around 10 min he goes a push just when i try to take a third which destroyed me i don't know why but i think i overdroned a little bit or engaged to early :/.
http://drop.sc/115374
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Ok guys, a droning question. I usually do a 30 drones (include gas) on 2 base. When I get a third, I usually transfer 8 drones from each to saturate the 3rd and make 6 more just for gas. However, what if I get a 4th base? Do I transfer my main base drones there, or do I drone up again? And I notice drone saturation differs with each match-up, is it true?
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I have a question, wouldnt Hydras be an ok choice in the ZvT matchup? i get the feeling that Mutas are expensive and when terrans get good at defending harassment they lose their value, wouldnt hydra ling bling be a good combo vs the Marine/tank build? I get the feeling that the Hydras will melt the tanks and the lings and blings will act as a tank and dps to the marines.
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On February 21 2012 02:30 Beijerinator wrote:
Hydras will melt the tanks This could be true if the terran somehow forgot to get siege mode. Otherwise, no... not at all.
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Alright, new question:
How do you deal with tanks on the low ground on shakuras outside your main in that little area protected by rocks? Or should I just go back to keeping shakuras voted down because of that ridiculous cheese? So dumb that they can just get a few tanks down there at the edge and prevent mining at your main with a couple medivacs of marines just going back and forth
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On February 21 2012 02:30 Beijerinator wrote:
I have a question, wouldnt Hydras be an ok choice in the ZvT matchup? i get the feeling that Mutas are expensive and when terrans get good at defending harassment they lose their value, wouldnt hydra ling bling be a good combo vs the Marine/tank build? I get the feeling that the Hydras will melt the tanks and the lings and blings will act as a tank and dps to the marines.
Hydras die to everything, and they're way too slow off creep.
Mutas dont lose their value, they force a bunch of turrets and even then if the terran doesnt leave enough defense back they can wreck a base before flying home to help with the push. Mutas give you a ton of map control and equally important: an easy way to deal with drops.
Everything becomes twice as hard for terran once mutas are out. If I were terran (I'm master zerg EU) and I saw hydras, I'd LOL and expand a bunch, while making nothing but tank/marine/medivac. I'd make every single expansion an PF, good luck killing that with ling/bling/hydra.
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If for some reason you really want to use hydras there are two threads by EndOfLine about this topic: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=312435
But beware. Mutas give you more than simple harass. They give you a lot more freedom to pick stuff up at the edges of a push and give you vision of the army. And probably lots of other useful stuff. Just because the terran has turrets up when your mutas hatch does not deny them. Look at any game of DongRaeGu. He finds spots that are easy to harass.
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On February 21 2012 03:13 TheRabidDeer wrote:
Alright, new question:
How do you deal with tanks on the low ground on shakuras outside your main in that little area protected by rocks? Or should I just go back to keeping shakuras voted down because of that ridiculous cheese? So dumb that they can just get a few tanks down there at the edge and prevent mining at your main with a couple medivacs of marines just going back and forth
Just attack the rocks with first lings what you got, spread creep in your main base towards that spot, make extra quuens to focus on medivac and possible place spine crawler on the ledge.
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On February 21 2012 01:32 Tristanity wrote:
Ok guys, a droning question. I usually do a 30 drones (include gas) on 2 base. When I get a third, I usually transfer 8 drones from each to saturate the 3rd and make 6 more just for gas. However, what if I get a 4th base? Do I transfer my main base drones there, or do I drone up again? And I notice drone saturation differs with each match-up, is it true?
Depends on match up and units what you are making, if you are making like infestors and you want to tech to broodlords just take the gas geysers and saturate them and once your main is mined out of minerals transfer those workers to your fourth bases mineral line.
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EPT
