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Disclaimer for the thick skulled:
I know hydras are not that great in zvt. However, because of their iconic imagery and usefulness in BW, I am forcing myself to use them. What I have found, amusingly I'll add, hydras are not as aweful as people suggested them to be.
Disclaimer 2 For those who msg me saying, "this shit wont work in masters!" Cough....
All these games are from masters NA.
Answering your questions about build orders/replays, ect ect
I always use the same build order unless its a 2 rax. My general BO is:
10 drone scout
16 hatch
17pool
18gas
17ol
(two drones in gas only, 3 if you read a marine all in (6 rax)
when pool finishes:
2 queens 2-3 pairs of lings
drone to 28
28 roach warren
2 ol
4-7 roaches (depending what my lings scout, if I see helions. I usually leave two roaches behind, so my queen + 2 roaches can handle them)
put third drone back on gas (now you have 16 drones on min)
rally both hatches down to natural hatch (all during yoru roach micro). Also, you will make all buildings, and sends into gas gysers only from your natural, so you always have 16 drones on min mining.
38-42 2ol
drone till 66. (assuming you lost no roaches) Take 3 gas gysers, evo, bane nest, third base ect ect. Now you will be making pure units.
Why: 16 + 16 drones = 32
+ 12 drones for gas = 44
+ 6 roaches + 2 queens = 60
+ 6 drones for buildings ----> bane nest, evo, 3 more gas gysers + 3rd base hatch
Gas order:
Lair
Sling speed
Bane nest
Evo armor + 1
Once lair is done.
Roach speed, Burrow, bane speed
Hydra den.
Rally all hatches to your third base.
(from here my BO will change based on what the terran is doing.
However, I get 1-2 more evo's + infester nest when 3rd base is satured and 4th base is building
The Dreaded Mech Style!
Very scary stuff!
However, I will force hydras to work, at all costs!
After part 1 of The Hydra Pilgrimage
Part 1: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=311746
I have been asked by the good folk of team liquid to investigate the possibilities of Hydra vs Mech.
Since I aim to please you all!
HYDRA VS MECH!
My Queen is packing her panties right now
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/4JFtf.jpg)
I'm Melting! Oh what a world, what a world!
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/46Kbg.jpg)
Mech army's are poweful! Take a look at my poor gold base!
One of the hard things about dealing with mech is:
Mech has Many Forms
One style of mech
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/tl0h3.jpg)
"This terran clearly had no idea that muta's exist!" VoidRH - Master Terran Player
Another style of mech
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/yw0kt.jpg)
Mech can also hit you at many different times. Sometimes there is a 1-2 base mech rush that hits while us zergs are droning! How evil is that?
Not as evil as this!
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/Voi0G.jpg)
Baneling land mines should be set off on helions/SCV's
"Here, Hold this!" Crazy Ivan - Red Alert
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/M6T7N.jpg)
This will buy you some time to build your hydra army up, as well as your tanking units.
However, zerglings are pretty crappy vs mech when they have Blue Flame Helions....
Kabooooom!
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/bah9o.jpg)
So, I have been using roaches and.....
Our EXTRA special tanks! "Land Battleships!"
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/SUNN8.jpg)
Hydras can really dish out the DPS from behind:
Ultra battleships
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/LCJ68.jpg)
So what if they so some sort of fancy blend of Mech with some bio?
You need to break out the:
Tenderizer!
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/9kCxx.jpg)
Banelings are really good at softening up terran meat sacks. (everything!)
In the Hydra pilgrimage part 1. I showed you this picture
FML!
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/OTJ13.jpg)
This picture really shows how badly hydras get owned without tanking units.
However, I was on to something.
Something really amusing and awesome!
What is the problem with hydra run by's?
Sometimes, it is ineffective due to defensive units, or a really good sim city.
you have seen it here first! The HYDRA RUN BY!
WTF EndOfLine - are you shitty me? Hydra Can't Run!
What do you think this is Brood War??!
Step 1. Your hydras need to:
Think Ninja
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/hSUvx.jpg)
Once the terran army is engaged in battle with your army, or right about too, pop them up.
SUNLIGHT YES!!
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/1wAME.jpg)
Then rush right to the terran third base:
My Roach has severe indigestion
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/Jkcqn.jpg)
Conclusion
Hydra's are actually more effective vs Mech then the usual marine tank.
their DPS is great at focus fire on thors.
UNLESS! They are making nothing but tanks!
If they do that then just break out the mutas for a very easy win.
For part 3, I I think I am going to do a ZVZ. Unless you all can give me some good suggestions on what you all want to see.
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Also, I would love your feedback + suggestions for future posts!
<3
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Nice Nice! Would definitely try hydras out zvt if I deal with Mech next time.
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I like this. Hydras have such sick DPS.
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On February 16 2012 14:03 ProRH wrote:
Nice Nice! Would definitely try hydras out zvt if I deal with Mech next time.
You are too pro mate <3
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On February 16 2012 14:04 Void_2 wrote:
I like this. Hydras have such sick DPS.
You have been quoted sir
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If they use anything that doesnt involve factory units, it is not mech
Playing anyone with a marauder/tank/hellion army is asking for mutas.
Just curious,
What league are you?
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On February 16 2012 14:06 IconicSC wrote:
If they use anything that doesnt involve factory units, it is not mech
Playing anyone with a marauder/tank/hellion army is asking for mutas.
Just curious,
What league are you?
Masters.
All pictures posted are from recent NA master ladder games
and the muraders is something mechers have been adding for zerg players that love roaches. Like me.
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On February 16 2012 14:08 EndOfLine wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2012 14:06 IconicSC wrote:
If they use anything that doesnt involve factory units, it is not mech
Playing anyone with a marauder/tank/hellion army is asking for mutas.
Just curious,
What league are you? Masters. All pictures posted are from recent NA master ladder games and the muraders is something mechers have been adding for zerg players that love roaches. Like me.
How do you play people like those in masters? The basis of mech is to macro and essentially force enough tech switches out of terran (roach force tank muta force thor bl force viking) where units are so expensive and nonversatile that they will lose. That is zerg. By making pure roach you are reducing the creativity that zerg offers and making it as brainded as ZvP was eons ago. If you play pure roach (or hydra i guess) vs tank marauder and lose then it is a well deserved loss.
Again, its not mech if there is marauders or marines. Biomech is not mech.
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On February 16 2012 14:15 IconicSC wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2012 14:08 EndOfLine wrote:On February 16 2012 14:06 IconicSC wrote:
If they use anything that doesnt involve factory units, it is not mech
Playing anyone with a marauder/tank/hellion army is asking for mutas.
Just curious,
What league are you? Masters. All pictures posted are from recent NA master ladder games and the muraders is something mechers have been adding for zerg players that love roaches. Like me. How do you play people like those in masters? The basis of mech is to macro and essentially force enough tech switches out of terran (roach force tank muta force thor bl force viking) where units are so expensive and nonversatile that they will lose. That is zerg. By making pure roach you are reducing the creativity that zerg offers and making it as brainded as ZvP was eons ago. If you play pure roach (or hydra i guess) vs tank marauder and lose then it is a well deserved loss. Again, its not mech if there is marauders or marines. Biomech is not mech.
This is not a guide. This is a hydra pilgrimage, showing amusing moments of my quest to find a use for them in zvt.
You should read part one.
I was talking about forcing myself to use hydras in zvt because Day + zenio's use of hydras in the mid game of zvp.
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On February 16 2012 14:29 EndOfLine wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2012 14:15 IconicSC wrote:On February 16 2012 14:08 EndOfLine wrote:On February 16 2012 14:06 IconicSC wrote:
If they use anything that doesnt involve factory units, it is not mech
Playing anyone with a marauder/tank/hellion army is asking for mutas.
Just curious,
What league are you? Masters. All pictures posted are from recent NA master ladder games and the muraders is something mechers have been adding for zerg players that love roaches. Like me. How do you play people like those in masters? The basis of mech is to macro and essentially force enough tech switches out of terran (roach force tank muta force thor bl force viking) where units are so expensive and nonversatile that they will lose. That is zerg. By making pure roach you are reducing the creativity that zerg offers and making it as brainded as ZvP was eons ago. If you play pure roach (or hydra i guess) vs tank marauder and lose then it is a well deserved loss. Again, its not mech if there is marauders or marines. Biomech is not mech. This is not a guide. This is a hydra pilgrimage, showing amusing moments of my quest to find a use for them in zvt. You should read part one. I was talking about forcing myself to use hydras in zvt because Day + zenio's use of hydras in the mid game of zvp.
I did not say anything about a guide. But whatever floats your boat bub. Youre posting in a strategy section about a strategy. I am commenting on it.
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i like hydras vs mech, because then i can go for landed vikings, they do really well against the hydra and provide anti air if the zerg thinks they could switch to air, bad part is, they need different upgrades then your common mech.
But yeah terran often forgets armor upgrades for their mech, making hydras do nice damage to thors and the likes. The issue with hydras is, they get melted before they can do their damage. This isn't really the case vs mech, thanks to the marine and tvt (siege tank nerf), making them more supply efficient then the roach and only a tiny bit slower. (still super fast compared to mech)
And paired with ultras they are able to spread, to avoid splash damage. (roaches block them pretty hard, best seen vs colossus). Guess the biggest problem is that hydras like ultras and broods, tend to be overproduced, which drops their effectiveness imo.
I usually use hydras only as a transition unit, as its super fast available on t2 and normally you can do alot of damage, before the hard conters are out, because of their high speed. (t2 speed ovis for isntant creep highway select the group let the creep flow, and right click minimap, deselect one etc etc, takes 4 seconds and your t2 push ride is done)
Another nice thing for hydras against mech is, they don't overkill as much as they for example do on marines (other low hp units). The sc2 ai is a bit to clever with non instant hit ranged units best seen with stalkers that all blink at the same time into the range of enemy units, with a heavily weakened one in the group. All stalkers will attack the 2 hp ling. (So remember if you snipe an undefended nexus prepare some different damaged lings)
Anyway funny pics (especially those mech composition gave me a nice horror) and good to see some ninja hydras. Nin nin nin. (especially ninja burrowing inside a sensor tower range)
Hope they'll make the hydra more useful in the future (offcreep speed is not the solution hehe. 1 supply would be funny, so you can replace the roaches with hydras, if you have the eco, but thats daydreaming sorry, but would love to see the hydras in all 3 rts games i currently play)
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The burrow thingy will not work if the T uses a Raven of course  But yes, with tanking units, Hydra can deal.....unbelievable DPS
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Well... the fact is.
Blue flame hellions rape hydras, thors rape hydras, tanks rape hydras.
Hydra are twice the gas of roaches. Roaches are in this case, more cost effective due to regenerative healing while burrowing, allowing for early game pressure with roach infestor into muta and then broodlords, then etc.
But, I love your ability to be creative, albeit not practical.
If ONLY IT WAS BROODWAR T_T R.I.P. THE HYDRA
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I think if you refine your build a bit it could be really effective versus mech. I'm not really sold on it versus standard play, but hydra/ling+Muta is actually what you did versus mech in BW; obviously there's a bit of a difference in how they've changed the hydralisk (slower, more expensive, build time, more supply). I think if you build less roaches and work mutas in on the long games while spreading creep, hydra/ling could be good at breaking tank lines
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Your Hydra threads are... at least entertaining and I like the idea to use the Hydra more frequently in ZvT.
I tried it too in a lot of variations: Nydus-Hydra, 3 base fast Broodlord Queen Hydra, etc.
I came to the conclusion that Hydras have a place in the game, but their actual worth is decreasing with every AoE Unit (For example Collossus, Tank, Infestor) in play.
To prevent my Hydras from being countered early I was trying fast tech switches like open up Spire + 5 Mutas (Enough to cause SMall SCV carnages) and toggle my army to roach Hydra.
So because you were asking for input, I recommend you to perform tech switches Into/from roach Hydra to surprise your Enemy.
And if you are Really crazy I would like to see you playing fast Hydra + Mass Queen.
Keep on the good work
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On February 16 2012 15:35 DontLoseSightOfIt wrote:The burrow thingy will not work if the T uses a Raven of course But yes, with tanking units, Hydra can deal.....unbelievable DPS
Ravens?!?!?!
Terrans dont make ravens silly! lmao (tho they should)
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On February 16 2012 14:38 IconicSC wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2012 14:29 EndOfLine wrote:On February 16 2012 14:15 IconicSC wrote:On February 16 2012 14:08 EndOfLine wrote:On February 16 2012 14:06 IconicSC wrote:
If they use anything that doesnt involve factory units, it is not mech
Playing anyone with a marauder/tank/hellion army is asking for mutas.
Just curious,
What league are you? Masters. All pictures posted are from recent NA master ladder games and the muraders is something mechers have been adding for zerg players that love roaches. Like me. How do you play people like those in masters? The basis of mech is to macro and essentially force enough tech switches out of terran (roach force tank muta force thor bl force viking) where units are so expensive and nonversatile that they will lose. That is zerg. By making pure roach you are reducing the creativity that zerg offers and making it as brainded as ZvP was eons ago. If you play pure roach (or hydra i guess) vs tank marauder and lose then it is a well deserved loss. Again, its not mech if there is marauders or marines. Biomech is not mech. This is not a guide. This is a hydra pilgrimage, showing amusing moments of my quest to find a use for them in zvt. You should read part one. I was talking about forcing myself to use hydras in zvt because Day + zenio's use of hydras in the mid game of zvp. I did not say anything about a guide. But whatever floats your boat bub. Youre posting in a strategy section about a strategy. I am commenting on it.
You once again are missing the point.
I know hydras are not great in zvt. They tend to not be cost effective, and weak vs AOE (Cough, tanks)
The point is I am forcing them in the match up, which should make me lose a alot. But the funny thing is, I am not. This suggests that hydras are not as useless as we all thought in zvt.
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On February 16 2012 15:10 FeyFey wrote:
i like hydras vs mech, because then i can go for landed vikings, they do really well against the hydra and provide anti air if the zerg thinks they could switch to air, bad part is, they need different upgrades then your common mech.
But yeah terran often forgets armor upgrades for their mech, making hydras do nice damage to thors and the likes. The issue with hydras is, they get melted before they can do their damage. This isn't really the case vs mech, thanks to the marine and tvt (siege tank nerf), making them more supply efficient then the roach and only a tiny bit slower. (still super fast compared to mech)
And paired with ultras they are able to spread, to avoid splash damage. (roaches block them pretty hard, best seen vs colossus). Guess the biggest problem is that hydras like ultras and broods, tend to be overproduced, which drops their effectiveness imo.
I usually use hydras only as a transition unit, as its super fast available on t2 and normally you can do alot of damage, before the hard conters are out, because of their high speed. (t2 speed ovis for isntant creep highway select the group let the creep flow, and right click minimap, deselect one etc etc, takes 4 seconds and your t2 push ride is done)
Another nice thing for hydras against mech is, they don't overkill as much as they for example do on marines (other low hp units). The sc2 ai is a bit to clever with non instant hit ranged units best seen with stalkers that all blink at the same time into the range of enemy units, with a heavily weakened one in the group. All stalkers will attack the 2 hp ling. (So remember if you snipe an undefended nexus prepare some different damaged lings)
Anyway funny pics (especially those mech composition gave me a nice horror) and good to see some ninja hydras. Nin nin nin. (especially ninja burrowing inside a sensor tower range)
Hope they'll make the hydra more useful in the future (offcreep speed is not the solution hehe. 1 supply would be funny, so you can replace the roaches with hydras, if you have the eco, but thats daydreaming sorry, but would love to see the hydras in all 3 rts games i currently play)
Hydras in everything would be awesome!
But, I love your point about overkill. Didn't even think of that.
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Got anymore replays of these games? I enjoyed the first set.
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EPT
