EPTThe Zerg Help Me Thread - Page 183
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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. | ||
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Biz
Canada10 Posts
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Mrvoodoochild1
United States1439 Posts
On February 18 2012 03:07 Biz wrote: As a bronze zerg player I've read many times that I should come up with one build/strategy against each race and use this almost exclusively until I improve. What are good verstatile builds? How are they modified to survive early all ins or long games? At the bronze level, you should do the 14 gas/14 pool speed ling expand opening against both zerg and protoss. Versus terran, you should open 14 hatch into 14 pool. As you get better at micro and holding off bunker rushes, then you can start going 15 hatch into 15 pool. These are the safest builds you can do in all the matchups. | ||
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yakitate304
United States655 Posts
On February 18 2012 03:07 Biz wrote: As a bronze zerg player I've read many times that I should come up with one build/strategy against each race and use this almost exclusively until I improve. What are good verstatile builds? How are they modified to survive early all ins or long games? I'm only a high plat zerg player but these are the core builds that I use in 75% of my games. ZvT: aXa's Zergling Aggression Build I started using this a few months ago and I think it's a good way for a lower level Zerg to get himself into the mid game against Terran. Some feel it's somewhat of an over commitment to Lings early on, but as you get familiar with the build you'll figure out what you can/can't hold with the amount of Lings the build explicitly tells you to make. Depending on what you see, you can skip Lings and make drones instead, but at a lower level I don't think your opponents will be good enough that making one round of Lings instead of Drones is going to put you at a big disadvantage. I know the conventional thought of Zerg is that you make Drones Drones Drones Drones Drones until you see something coming, and THEN make just enough units to survive... As I've gotten better at the game I've been able to do that, but I also feel that sticking exclusively to that thought process hinders Zerg's chances of winning. Simply, there are too many games both at ladder level AND at the pro level where you see a talented Zerg player lose the game because they droned too hard for one round, and couldn't deal with the push, and then when they do make units they are simply streaming in to their death. This build allows you to get a decent Ling 1/1 (and then 2/2) Ling army to dictate the pace of the game so that even if your opponent has some timing in mind, you are able to hit them AWAY from your base so that you have time to re-make your army before they're at your front door. The key to this style is to use your Speedlings to make the most of your map awareness and don't let them get too close to your base. I'm about 65% in ZvT with this build. I highly suggest reading the thread rather than just following this numerical order. 9/10 Overlord 13/18 Scouting drone 15/18 Hatchery 15/18 Extractor: Mine 100 gas for speed and pull drone off. 14/18 pool 16/18 Overlord 16/26: 2 Queens, 2 set of zergling 28/28: 2 spine crawler, 2 evolution chamber. 5 set of ling to be safe against hellion run by. 6:00: macro hatch, followed by 2 extra Queens (3 to injects, 1 for creep) Then 2nd extractor, pull back 6 drone in gas. Start +1 melee +1 armor asap. Then tech to lair. T3 depends if you have 70 drone on 3-4 bases or not.. ========== ZvP (note: my ZvP is my worst matchup) 12 Pool 13 Scout 16 Queen (constant injects) 18: 2 extractors, 4 Lings, cancel 1 extractor (extractor trick) - 3 drones in 1 gas 19/18: Overlord 19: Hatchery (your Lings should have popped and will be able to kill any Pylon block or Cannon attempt at your natural) 22: Zergling speed, pull drones off gas 26: Queen - 1st tumor in your main, then tumor at natural 31: Overlord 31: Queen (injects @ natural) 36: Put drones back in gas Your gas priority should be: Zergling Speed, then Lair, then +1 Missile attacks, then Roach production or Roach speed depending on the pressure Again though, my ZvP is my worst by far (35% I'd say) so take this with a grain of salt. I just like the early portion of the opening because it's safe to cannoning players and allows you to smoothly get your expansion up without having to pull drones to kill anything. Frankly, I am thinking of using this general opening but instead applying gas priority to Muta play instead. ========== ZvZ - heavy speedling aggression (65% I'd say) I used to play a really conservative style of ZvZ and frankly, died in the first 8 minutes 75% of the time. I found this build somewhere on TL and have been using it to great effect ever since. You're safe against other Ling-heavy openings as well as Ling/Bane all-ins, so long as you have good unit control. I'd say I win about 80% of the games I play against Ling/Bane when I use this build. Your goal here is to apply heavy, constant aggression to deny their natural, kill their Queens and when possible, take out some Drones. You need to be careful if you go up their ramp because 1 well positioned Baneling can ruin your whole army, so make sure you lead with 1 solo Ling first. If you see Roaches, just remember that you can deny their natural for quite some time since they need to worry about plugging their ramp. Use this time to drone up and put guys back in gas, and create a Roach army of your own. If they are going Ling/Bane and manage to secure their natural, you need to either throw down a Baneling nest of your own, or lay off the aggression and make a few defensive Roaches while droning. 13 gas (only put 2 drones in Gas) 13 Pool 15 Hatchery 18 Speed (pull drones off gas) 18 Overlord 4 Lings 20 Queen 20+ Lings Lings and more Lings | ||
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RibsNGibs
64 Posts
Personally, whenever I see zealots I just get this gut reaction where I want to pull my lings away because they melt so fast (the same gut reaction I get when my mutas see a bunch of marines or thors - just instant pullback). Should I feel this way, or do zerglings actually trade sort-of-kind-of cost efficiently with zealots? I guess my real question is: do people attack zealots with zerglings because they trade OK if they get a surround, etc., or is it that people are cutting corners and either not getting gas or saving gas for something besides roaches, and so they actually don't have anything else besides zerglings to attack with? | ||
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[Noman]
19 Posts
On February 18 2012 07:36 RibsNGibs wrote: I have a question about zerglings vs zealots in ZvP - I see a lot of games where people attack zealots with zerglings, especially in the early and early-mid game. Personally, whenever I see zealots I just get this gut reaction where I want to pull my lings away because they melt so fast (the same gut reaction I get when my mutas see a bunch of marines or thors - just instant pullback). Should I feel this way, or do zerglings actually trade sort-of-kind-of cost efficiently with zealots? I guess my real question is: do people attack zealots with zerglings because they trade OK if they get a surround, etc., or is it that people are cutting corners and either not getting gas or saving gas for something besides roaches, and so they actually don't have anything else besides zerglings to attack with? There is a point in time where zerglings are decent against zealots - when they have speed and zealots don't have +1 attack (that makes them 2-shot lings). My main thought is that in this case, zerg decides whether to engage or not (because of the speed). When zerg has enough lings to win the engagement, it will usually also be cost effective. You can try retreating injured lings to improve efficiency, the toss cant do much against this. But its mainly in small numbers. Also, lings vs zealots in the early-mid game (Probably between 6 to 8 minutes into the game) is also about map control. If you take out his zealots he can't just send a probe to plant a forward pylon, and that delays any potential P attack, giving you at least another round of units (after you've seen what he has). This is the main advantage of lings over roaches for this role - their speed allows you to have map control until P has a force big enough to take them down. | ||
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BushidoSnipr
United States910 Posts
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Purple Haze
United Kingdom200 Posts
On February 18 2012 08:28 BushidoSnipr wrote: Quick question. Do queen timings matter all that much? I follow a decently strict build order each time, but I dont normally pay much attention to my 2nd queen timing. Do you think it really matters much? And if so, would u suggest a decent timing to get it at? What does the rest of your build look like? Unless you're doing some kind of fast three bases I'd get it as soon as possible, and put down a creep tumor instead of an inject if you feel you don't have the economy yet to make use to two injected hatcheries. | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
In ZvZ I go hatch first, and the larval production on 2hatches vs 1 hatch 1 queen is somewhat similar, and I rely on banelings (not larval intensive) for early game defense, so I don't get my first queen until after spine/lings/bane nest, and my 2nd queen I get like at 30 supply (sometimes earlier for ramp block against aggressive opponents). In ZvP, since you can't really hatch first, i just get 1 queen when pool pops, and 2nd queen either when natural finishes or 1st queen finishes, whichever is first. In ZvT, I start 2 queens immediately when pool and hatch pop simultaneously, and then I start a 3rd as soon as they pop. Creep is so important in ZvT. I used to go inject/tumor with them, but then I started to go inject/inject. Inject/Inject is way better, you wouldn't think you would have the income for it, but if you time your overlords right, you end up with about 3 more drones by going inject/inject instead. Just have the 3rd queen connect the bases. | ||
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Vega62a
946 Posts
On February 18 2012 08:28 BushidoSnipr wrote: Quick question. Do queen timings matter all that much? I follow a decently strict build order each time, but I dont normally pay much attention to my 2nd queen timing. Do you think it really matters much? And if so, would u suggest a decent timing to get it at? Depending on your build, I would try to work in the 2nd queen as soon as your nat comes up. Even if you can't use the extra larva, you can always use the extra creep. | ||
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di3alot
172 Posts
i dont get it -.- i played 20 matches 11of them where zvz and then i had enough i decided to play terran to get then 7tvts in a row with a cannon rush on ck trowed in. i just can not find a way to play this match-up safe without getting behind. i open 15pool>gas>exp in to losing my expo i open 15pool>gas> in to getting weirdly 10pooled i open hatch first into 11pooled into one base infestor. my general understanding of this match up equals my English grammar. how do i react properly to a baneling allin i usualy have 2queens in time to block the ramp with a spine. but then i feeeel sooo behind and my minerals are soo high because no exp. do i need in this case banelings? or can i go roach? when i go baneling i tend to screw up my macro because of the micro when i go for roaches i feel safe but i also feel that im behind. and when should i stop building roaches? do i have to do something with them? and how can i do that without getting counter attacked? i also have problems in midgame. i dont rly know when and what i should get."infestation pit/hive/should i get burrow etc. is roach hydra better than roach infestor with the same eco? | ||
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Orgiastic
United States43 Posts
He using like 4-8 for each hatchery. | ||
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KimJongChill
United States6429 Posts
On February 18 2012 17:55 Orgiastic wrote: What's the benefit of hotkeying each hatch on a different hotkey? As DRG does and a lot of other pros. He using like 4-8 for each hatchery. I used to use this method, and the only benefit I really saw was having general 'locations' hotkeyed, allowing you to quickly jump to a particular place. Otherwise, I just don't see why anyone would use this method. Backspace method with queens on one hotkey feels so much more efficient. | ||
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Orgiastic
United States43 Posts
On February 18 2012 18:05 KimJongChill wrote: I used to use this method, and the only benefit I really saw was having general 'locations' hotkeyed, allowing you to quickly jump to a particular place. Otherwise, I just don't see why anyone would use this method. Backspace method with queens on one hotkey feels so much more efficient. I thought of that, but it makes no sense. Most pros hotkey the view locations with Ctrl + f5 anyway, so there must be another reason why they hotkey each hatch. Btw, MMA never said that. :/ | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On February 18 2012 18:21 Orgiastic wrote: I thought of that, but it makes no sense. Most pros hotkey the view locations with Ctrl + f5 anyway, so there must be another reason why they hotkey each hatch. Btw, MMA never said that. :/ I do the same thing and I think part of it is bw habbit possibly. I know for me it was a bw habbit and I feel I have more control. When I hit my hatchery button like 55 I want to go to a certain hatch. I don't want to click on the minimap and I use f2-f4 for other stuff. I know nestea does it as well but he also has them all on 0. I would like to ask DRG though to see why he does it I know personally I just feel I have more control with waypoints and what not but thats me I am not drg and I am way worse then him ^^. | ||
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TheGreenMachine
United States730 Posts
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CookieMaker
Canada880 Posts
On February 18 2012 12:56 di3alot wrote: how do i react properly to a baneling allin i usualy have 2queens in time to block the ramp with a spine. but then i feeeel sooo behind and my minerals are soo high because no exp. do i need in this case banelings? or can i go roach? when i go baneling i tend to screw up my macro because of the micro when i go for roaches i feel safe but i also feel that im behind. and when should i stop building roaches? do i have to do something with them? and how can i do that without getting counter attacked? i also have problems in midgame. i dont rly know when and what i should get."infestation pit/hive/should i get burrow etc. is roach hydra better than roach infestor with the same eco? Don't whine, just rewind. Defending a Baneling all-in: If you open hatch first and your opponent opens 14/14, then you have to get speed with your first 100 gas and a banenest with your next 50 gass UNLESS you get a lucky/good scout of his main and see no baneling nest. It your opponent opens 14/14, the perogative is on them to do damage or else they will ultimately be behind. If you see his baneling nest or are playing blind, you have to throw down a crawler as far forward as you possibly can on your creep and bring your queens up tot he front. You will want to have banes morphing of your own as fast as possible, and you want to delay as long as possible before engaging (focus banes with crawlers/queens). You CANNOT hold this by opening hatch-first into roaches. You MUST get your own banes, and try to delay him until yours are out. Tips for delaying are using your lings and sending one or 2 at a time to explode his banes, remember that for him a this point they are precious, and each one you kill on just 1-2 lings is a big hit to his push. | ||
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RaiZ
2813 Posts
On February 18 2012 09:03 Belial88 wrote: Depends on match-up. In ZvZ I go hatch first, and the larval production on 2hatches vs 1 hatch 1 queen is somewhat similar, and I rely on banelings (not larval intensive) for early game defense, so I don't get my first queen until after spine/lings/bane nest, and my 2nd queen I get like at 30 supply (sometimes earlier for ramp block against aggressive opponents). In ZvP, since you can't really hatch first, i just get 1 queen when pool pops, and 2nd queen either when natural finishes or 1st queen finishes, whichever is first. In ZvT, I start 2 queens immediately when pool and hatch pop simultaneously, and then I start a 3rd as soon as they pop. Creep is so important in ZvT. I used to go inject/tumor with them, but then I started to go inject/inject. Inject/Inject is way better, you wouldn't think you would have the income for it, but if you time your overlords right, you end up with about 3 more drones by going inject/inject instead. Just have the 3rd queen connect the bases. Do you have any ZvT replays ? I find it really hard to spend all the minerals on drones only when there are too many things a terran can throw at you, especially the bunk rush between the hatch and the mineral @ the natural... I can easily do it against an easy computer, but when it comes to a human player, it's just another story. Do you even take gas ? If so when ? do you get speed first before lair ? do you put a spine ? Etc etc... | ||
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LazinCajun
United States294 Posts
On February 18 2012 17:55 Orgiastic wrote: What's the benefit of hotkeying each hatch on a different hotkey? As DRG does and a lot of other pros. He using like 4-8 for each hatchery. You can check the timer on your larva to pop at each hatchery, making it easier to nail injects. It's pretty nice early game when sometimes your injects aren't synced up, especially if you're using a build where pumping lots of larva is key. Additionally, you can get some small advantages out of better control over which hatches your units come out of. As a simple example, if your main and nat are saturated on drones but your 3rd needs 5 more, you can obviously build drones out of your 3rd hatch (duh). For people with all their hatches on 4, they tend to just hit 4sddddd, and have 3 drones build at their main and have to transfer across the map. | ||
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Madera
Sweden2672 Posts
On February 18 2012 19:45 LazinCajun wrote: You can check the timer on your larva to pop at each hatchery, making it easier to nail injects. It's pretty nice early game when sometimes your injects aren't synced up, especially if you're using a build where pumping lots of larva is key. Additionally, you can get some small advantages out of better control over which hatches your units come out of. As a simple example, if your main and nat are saturated on drones but your 3rd needs 5 more, you can obviously build drones out of your 3rd hatch (duh). For people with all their hatches on 4, they tend to just hit 4sddddd, and have 3 drones build at their main and have to transfer across the map. Yeah, I play with this setup aswell as it gives me more control over my hatcheries and when I'm active out on the man I can just tap 5-6 to check up on the inject timer in my main and nat. Another advantage with this setup I feel is when you're moving your queens around a lot you can just tap back to your hatcheries and inject with the nearest queen without changing up your hotkeys. I bind all my hatcheries on 4, my main, nat and third on 5-7. This way I can choose to produce from either all my hatcheries or a single one whenever I feel like. I believe this is the exact setup Zergs like Leenock and July use. | ||
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Orgiastic
United States43 Posts
On February 18 2012 20:17 MaderA wrote: Yeah, I play with this setup aswell as it gives me more control over my hatcheries and when I'm active out on the man I can just tap 5-6 to check up on the inject timer in my main and nat. Another advantage with this setup I feel is when you're moving your queens around a lot you can just tap back to your hatcheries and inject with the nearest queen without changing up your hotkeys. I bind all my hatcheries on 4, my main, nat and third on 5-7. This way I can choose to produce from either all my hatcheries or a single one whenever I feel like. I believe this is the exact setup Zergs like Leenock and July use. So with this method, you don't hotkey you're queens? You just snap to the hatch, select and inject? I'm watching a replay from Leenock and he doesn't seem to hotkey the queens at all. | ||
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