EPTThe Zerg Help Me Thread - Page 181
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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. | ||
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Klumpmeister
United States31 Posts
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MalditoKyo
France76 Posts
On February 15 2012 19:06 RedZ wrote: What are the best and fastest ways to get better at playing the game, in your opinion? I've heard that new players should learn an easy all-in and practice that until they are gold or beyond and I've heard that they would be better off learning how to macro from the very beginning What are the most important things for a new zerg to know? What are the key unit compositions? edit: I am a silver level zerg btw :[ I would definitely watch the answer of this post! | ||
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Tristanity
Malaysia45 Posts
Will this math do for saturation. I remember seeing this somewhere: (Mineral drones) + (Gas) 24 + 6 24*2 + 12 16*3 + 18 16*4 + 24 Meaning, after 3rd base, saturation per base (inc gas) is 22 workers which will total up to 88 drones with 4 bases. Is it ok? And what is the best timing to get a 3rd base? I always hear people saying you must be +1 base of your opponents ( vs T/P) Are there any specific timing? | ||
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halpimcat
215 Posts
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courtpanda
866 Posts
On February 15 2012 19:50 MalditoKyo wrote: I would definitely watch the answer of this post! i say the learning an all-in. when youre starting off, strategy doesnt matter as much as "having more stuff". the best way to get aforementioned "stuff" is to have decent mechanics, like: -constantly build workers -don't get supply blocked -keeping your money low -dont miss injects/mules/chronoboosts after you have those down on a smaller, 1-base scale, then you can go on to more strategic stuff, like -doing all of the above with more bases -scouting and reacting to information (if you FE and theyre going for a one-base stuff, you need to know how to react, like turrets, spores, bunkers, spines, cannons, etc.) -army compositions (hey i have more stalkers than you do marauders. i guess that means ill win derp) -getting upgrades -multitasking (harassing, defending harasses, etc. while keeping up with the first part) dont know whats after that, im mid-high diamond and im still on the second part. edit: to answer more of that: my rules of playing zerg: 1) NEVER miss an inject. (i think) nestea once said if your queen ever reaches 50 energy, its gg. although at lower (non-professional) levels, its not as extreme, your game should be based around your injects. 1.5) (if youre going for any mass-ling strategy, get a macro hatch) 2) be as greedy as possible without dying. that means as many drones as you can as early as possible. 2.5) spread creep. i try to do it after each inject cycle, its so useful for map control, scouting, and defense. its not bad to have an extra queen as a "creep slave" 3) NEVER let T or P get a 3rd base without a fight. 3 is the magic number here. terran and protoss armies are terrifying when theyre supplied by 3 bases of income. deny the third by any means possible. 4) army compositions: the "meat" of your army until late-game is roaches and speedlings (and banelings). for support, you have hydras, mutas, and infestors. late game, almost always goes broodlord. 4a). ZvT: early game: lings/roaches (banelings if necessary) to defend while you drone up. mid game: IF they go for marine tank, THEN you go muta-ling-bling. mutas harass whatever they have, lings and banelings handle everything on the ground. make sure you move your banelings instead of attackmove if possible. IF they go for mech, THEN you get roaches. here, you can use mutas or infestors for support, mutas if their thor count is low, infestors if their tank count is low. expand heavily early, then trade roaches with your better economy while going for hive tech. late game: broodlord-infestor for the ground, corruptors for the air. ultras if youre winning by a lot or he has a lot of vikings. ZvP: not too sure. roaches for the most part, because ling-bling gets torn apart by zealots, archons, storms, collosus, sentries. basically everything except stalker immortal. either kill him with whatever the hell you can, or get a deathball army of roach infestor broodlord corruptor. ZvZ: early game: if you have more lings than him, try to pick a fight. if you have less lings than him, get more lings. if he has banelings/roaches and you dont, get banelings/roaches. this is the "be as greedy as possible" part. mid game: you can go for roach-infestor(-hydra), or muta-ling-bling. IF roach-infestor(-hydra), get more roaches and infestors, keep up on upgrades, and go win. if you see he has mutas, or if youre almost maxed, add a few hydras in. prioritize fungaling mutas, and dont fight unless you have a decent concave and youre sure you have more army. IF muta-ling-bling, pick off OL and workers and tech structures with mutas, deny his third base. if you think hes going to base-trade, get spines ASAP. make sure you target hydras with banelings so that your mutas can kill everything else. muta-ling-bling is about map control. you have the weaker army in a straight up fight, so never let them have a straight up fight. also, you learn a lot from listening to casts and commentary. specifically, i rank artosis, dApollo, day9, and wolf (along with most current pro players) to be on a different level when it comes to analytical casting. im not saying everyone else is bad, but those 4 are the best in my opinion. but don't be afraid when you cant imitate the pros. i used to try to get up to 80 drones like Liquid'Ret ASAP and die to any push before 16 minutes. dont feel bad if you get roaches to defend hellions, or if you get gas before 44 supply. theyre pros for a reason. 5) theses are standard build orders. you dont have to do them in every game, but this is what usually happens in the first 3 minutes of "standard" games ZvZ + Show Spoiler + 9OL 14 gas 14 pool 16 OL @100% pool queen ling speed ZvP + Show Spoiler + 9 OL 12 pool (16 gas) 15 queen 17 extractor trick, 4 lings 19 OL 19 hatch ZvT + Show Spoiler + 9OL 15 hatch 16 pool 18 OL @100%pool 2 queens and 4 lings i like going gasless early vP and vT, but thats personal preference. im sure better players can give you better info, take my wall-of-text with a grain of salt. also, if anyone wants to call me out on anything terribly incorrect, go ahead. tl;dr zerg is hard. | ||
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SeinGalton
South Africa387 Posts
On February 14 2012 22:39 SeinGalton wrote: Hello. I'm busy figuring out a a roach-less, spireless ZvP style: I'm using lings, hydra and infestors to stay alive, and then I add on Ultras and banelings to help take on a death ball in a head on fight. The idea is to wind up with a more mobile late game army than the typical Broodlord mix, allowing me to keep taking bases and to keep on crashing into the protoss army. It uses a lot of drops and harassing, and relies on good head-on engagements with the death ball and quickly remaxing to wear it down. The main consists out of varying ratios of lings, banelings, hydras, infestors and ultras depending on the composition of the Protoss army. I suppose it's akin to Coca's ZvP. I'm having a little trouble with the opening, optimizing it and covering all the different protoss timings. I'm pretty sure it needs to be a two base play, followed by a double expand: I don't see a way to safely take a third and tech up at once. I don't have a replay as of yet - I don't get to ladder very often as I don't have internet at home - but I was wondering wether anyone knew about a good reference I could look at? I've been looking at Leenock's ZvP from MLG, most notably his games against Huk, and Zenio's games against Naniwa (from the recent IEM, I believe?). Both of them transition into Mutas, however, instead of Hive tech. I've also had a look at Coca's MLG games, but those are slightly outdated as he uses NP to deal with larger threats like Collosi. I'm still exploring the style and trying to figure out the timings for myself, so I don't have a specific question. Rather, I was hoping for thoughts on this style or, better yet, if someone could point me to some replays that I could really dig into? Thanks for reading! I'm still looking for replays to analyze in helping me develop this style; does anyone know of a zerg that does not go roaches against Protoss at all? I'm pretty sure that any roachless build will have a ton of things for me to learn from; as I mentioned, I've looked at Leenock, Zenio and Coca but ideally I'd like to get a number of replays of the same style or same player so I can take a look at deviations and conditional plays - which is implicit in this style. Does anyone out there play a roachless ZvP style? Thanks for any help! | ||
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XxMulexX
Canada57 Posts
Ok guys, several macro questions again ( Im still a low level player) Will this math do for saturation. I remember seeing this somewhere: (Mineral drones) + (Gas) 24 + 6 24*2 + 12 16*3 + 18 16*4 + 24 I don't think you need to apply a strict rule like that, beyond 16 drones. As soon as you have at least 16 drones on minerals, you should consider this base saturated, but that shouldn't let that stop you from making more drones (up to a max of about 80-85 imo) if you feel safe since you will be able to transfer those later. And what is the best timing to get a 3rd base? I always hear people saying you must be +1 base of your opponents ( vs T/P) Are there any specific timing? There are specific timings, but they depend on the MU and the situation, and your playstyle. The general rule of thumb is that you should always expand when you feel safe, i.e. when you see the opponent being passive or when you are in total map control, such as when you go ling/muta in ZvP. For more precise timings, you should read some of the guides in the recommended guides thread, and experiment yourself. | ||
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courtpanda
866 Posts
On February 15 2012 22:30 XxMulexX wrote: I don't think you need to apply a strict rule like that, beyond 16 drones. As soon as you have at least 16 drones on minerals, you should consider this base saturated, but that shouldn't let that stop you from making more drones (up to a max of about 80-85 imo) if you feel safe since you will be able to transfer those later. There are specific timings, but they depend on the MU and the situation, and your playstyle. The general rule of thumb is that you should always expand when you feel safe, i.e. when you see the opponent being passive or when you are in total map control, such as when you go ling/muta in ZvP. For more precise timings, you should read some of the guides in the recommended guides thread, and experiment yourself. the 2 100% always follow these rules about saturation: 1) NEVER have more than 3 drones/mineral patch. theyre more useful distance mining at that point. 2) dont have more than 2 drones/patch on a base IF theres another base with <2 drones/patch. i dont worry when i have 48 drones mining on 2 bases. yes, its not optimal, but i have more income than if i only had 32 drones. and when i expand, ill have 3 perfectly saturated bases. | ||
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ThA_BuZz
Norway1 Post
i am currently top gold on eu account.... its kinda crazy strategy but it will work very good vs toss ffe if a couple of things goes your way.. (like if your nydus dont get stopped) point here is to simply just make a really fast nydus rush into hes main with lots of lings and i like to do 2 queens and some drones.. just make the nydus in hes main.. take out nexus and gates while you creep up way against the natural expansion.. then make spines and set them on the cliff and let them do theyre work on canns etc.. (most maps have cliffs) then expand inside there if you want to.. nice and cozy there now  if he should counter you can just send all drones into your new home  dts shouldent be a problem since you have lair allready and just look for voids.. which will take him some time.. anyways i think he will just leave the game.. dont know if this will work as well in higher leagues and im no pro so.. but think it can help out a lot of guys at my level please comment and give inputs and thoughts.. peace | ||
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rebuffering
Canada2436 Posts
So, ive been going ling/infestor vs Terran, as i feel it is very strong, and i feel like i always hold off the early pushes since i have so many lings out with some banelings if im worried. But right now, im thinking of going the regular Muta/ling/bane style, im just wondering, is it viable to stay on 2 base with just ling/bane, as to not die to early pressure, then get that 3rd up quicker, then go Mutas? Or is it to late to go mutas at that point? Im preety terrified about a good push at like 9 or 10 mins, so id rather skip mutas and just get a lot of lings with upgrades to stomp the 1st push, then get a 3rd and go muta afterwords, but worried about going mutas after the 10 or 11 minute mark as im not sure if they will be that effective. Thanks for the input! | ||
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Olsson
Sweden931 Posts
On February 16 2012 03:37 rebuffering wrote: Hey guys, Terran here switching to zerg, i was High Masters in T and now im around mid masters with Zerg, for what thats worth. So, ive been going ling/infestor vs Terran, as i feel it is very strong, and i feel like i always hold off the early pushes since i have so many lings out with some banelings if im worried. But right now, im thinking of going the regular Muta/ling/bane style, im just wondering, is it viable to stay on 2 base with just ling/bane, as to not die to early pressure, then get that 3rd up quicker, then go Mutas? Or is it to late to go mutas at that point? Im preety terrified about a good push at like 9 or 10 mins, so id rather skip mutas and just get a lot of lings with upgrades to stomp the 1st push, then get a 3rd and go muta afterwords, but worried about going mutas after the 10 or 11 minute mark as im not sure if they will be that effective. Thanks for the input! High Masters Zerg. Yes sometimes I chose to delay mutas in favor of getting more lings, upgrades and a faster third. It is completely viable. You'll be able to build alot more mutas faster than 2base muta because of a faster third with gases so that makes up for later mutas. | ||
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rebuffering
Canada2436 Posts
On February 16 2012 03:58 Olsson wrote: High Masters Zerg. Yes sometimes I chose to delay mutas in favor of getting more lings, upgrades and a faster third. It is completely viable. You'll be able to build alot more mutas faster than 2base muta because of a faster third with gases so that makes up for later mutas. Thanks very much!! time to go have some fun! | ||
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Amestir
Netherlands2126 Posts
I took a break for S5 and plan to come back next week. I was gold player in S4. I'm just looking if my builds are still useable. For ZvT I go 14 hatch 15 pool ZvP: speedling expand ZvZ: a really weird 13 pool, speedling +1 timing attack build, keeps working better since people expand more often nowadays in zvz. So are these builds still useable or should i change? Tyvm in advance | ||
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Vond
Sweden145 Posts
Gold EU/Plat NA zerg, recently started playing again after 3 month break. Have worked a lot on injects after coming back as that was my strongest point before, and feel I'm satisfied with that enough that I should focus on other areas of my play. - Scouting on 4 player maps. If my first ovie fails to scout right away, I have massive problems getting decent scouting off. I do dronescout (on 12, sometimes on 10 on maps where I feel I won't be able to get in before walloff otherwise. What would be a good way to improve scouting on 4 player maps? I've considered keeping a drone long-distance mining at my natural while the hatchery there is building (to scout for bunker/pylon shenanigans) so that I can use that overlord to scout in a different direction, but it feels risky. Suggestions or comments on that idea would be appreciated! - Overlord timings. I don't (often, fuckups happen some games) supplyblock myself during the early game, but in mid- and late-game it happens, more so once I got injects down to a good level. Say I'm on 3 base and at 80/102 supply, with larvae just about to pop at all 3 (possibly 4 if macro-hatch already) hatches. Should I already there add in an extra 2-3 overlords with the larvae that pop, or wait til I'm closer to current cap? In example above I often find myself building drones/units for all larvae and then getting ovies with additional larvae-spawns. The problem is that if a push is incoming, being close to being capped and having to build ovies can slow down my defence and sometimes lose me the game. Building ovies too early however can slow down the economy, so I'm not quite sure how to balance this properly. Any rule of thumbs that people live by would be very helpful here! - Hatchery timings. In ZvP I go for early 3rd vs FFE and earlier lair on 2 base vs gateway openings, while taking 3rd as they take their natural. In ZvT I go for a macrohatch around 6min mark usually, and 3rd when I have taken back mapcontrol. I feel these are decent timings to live by, but in ZvZ I'm very unsure when to get my 3rd, and I also am very bad at 4th/5th timings in every matchup which often leads to lost mining-time as my main/nat runs out. This means I can be ahead and then fall behind in the lategame as I haven't managed my expansions properly. Again, any signs that people go by for these timings would be very helpful. - Crisis management in the early game. Banshee/stargate pressure puts me in panic-mode most games, and I let my macro slip bigtime putting me way behind. These openings can even get me in trouble when scouted (though it's the unscouted ones that REALLY put me off) as I'm just not quite sure how to react. I feel I have good evochamber timings in ZvP (5:30 vs gateway, 7:00 vs FFE) to get spores up, but vs double stargate or banshees I feel that I usually defend very poorly unless I have LOTS of spores up, which puts my economy behind as panic mode puts me off. Any general tips to defend vs early banshees/stargate (esp double stargate) other than simply "get spores" would be helpful, such as tips on placement or amount of spores per base etc. Also any mental checklist you go through in your mind in those early-airpressure situations might help a lot. - ZvP vs turtling toss. I feel I have a decent grasp on how to defend the 6/7 gates that happen at my level. I do get problems with the mass-sentry pushes however, but I still feel my biggest problem with toss is when they build up a decent army at 2base that makes it look like 2base push is incoming, and they then instead go for a third that they can easily defend while they turtle up to a proper deathball. Usually in these situations I scout what I think looks like a 2base push, mass units to defend, they instead take third and turtle up and I can't really do much about it with roach/ling as attacking into cannons+army doesn't work well usually. If I go aggressive it usually ends very badly in these situations which puts them in a good position to move out and I'm 'stuck' with a non-optimal armysetup. What do you generally do in these situations to ge the edge, just try to bust and then try to remax on a better army composition and hope they don't hit a timing where you're vulnerable? - Any other tips on macro/scouting etc would be very helpful. | ||
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llKenZyll
United States853 Posts
On February 15 2012 19:43 Klumpmeister wrote: I have been playing better Protoss players lately and they have been able to crush me every time with sentries. Either by blocking my ramp or splitting my army. What are some tactics or guidelines that a Zerg should follow when playing a Protoss? You should get a good flank and never engage in tight positions. I went through a phase about a month ago when I thought force field was completely imbalanced, but it turns out I was just taking bad positions in fights. If you are playing against an opponent who has about 15+ sentries, then you should consider getting drops and dropping roaches on their army, OR getting tunneling claws. Both work fine. You can also go mutalisks vs heavy (15+) sentry play, as they are immobile. But other than that, just get good positioning in your engages. Flanks are a plus. | ||
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Steglich
Denmark282 Posts
It seems near impossible for me to beat the "sit on your ass on 2-3 bases and mass up an indestructible deatharmy" derp strategy that so many protoss players are using. I feel so lost in this matchup. I usually go for mutas, mass expand and denying their expos. Which seems to be going really good, until the protoss decides to move out and a-move. I played a match some ~20 minutes ago, where i denied his 3rd 2 times (he did not cancel the nexus) and his fourth another 2 times (still no cancel) I even killed 40 probes with my mutas. But then he moved out with the ultimate derpball, you know, collossus, stalkers, storm, archons and mamaship and completetly obliterated my blord/infestor/muta army. I am mid-high masters on EU. What do my fellows do in this matchup, if the match is not over before lategame? | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
On February 15 2012 20:51 Tristanity wrote: Ok guys, several macro questions again ( Im still a low level player) Will this math do for saturation. I remember seeing this somewhere: (Mineral drones) + (Gas) 24 + 6 24*2 + 12 16*3 + 18 16*4 + 24 Meaning, after 3rd base, saturation per base (inc gas) is 22 workers which will total up to 88 drones with 4 bases. Is it ok? And what is the best timing to get a 3rd base? I always hear people saying you must be +1 base of your opponents ( vs T/P) Are there any specific timing? I don't think you should ever worry about 16 vs 24 drones. You just worry about getting 24 workers on minerals. Stopping at 16 is just going to cause you to lose the game. The marginal loss is not that much. | ||
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Amaterasu1234
United States317 Posts
On February 16 2012 12:44 Steglich wrote: I just lost my billionth ZvP in a row. It seems near impossible for me to beat the "sit on your ass on 2-3 bases and mass up an indestructible deatharmy" derp strategy that so many protoss players are using. I feel so lost in this matchup. I usually go for mutas, mass expand and denying their expos. Which seems to be going really good, until the protoss decides to move out and a-move. I played a match some ~20 minutes ago, where i denied his 3rd 2 times (he did not cancel the nexus) and his fourth another 2 times (still no cancel) I even killed 40 probes with my mutas. But then he moved out with the ultimate derpball, you know, collossus, stalkers, storm, archons and mamaship and completetly obliterated my blord/infestor/muta army. I am mid-high masters on EU. What do my fellows do in this matchup, if the match is not over before lategame? if at all possible, watch Stephano vs the colossus deathball including the mothership. The guy...has the sickest positioning and unit control that roflstomps his opponent. http://www.justin.tv/mstephano/b/308357637 @ about 1 hour 34 minutes...look at that spread...that's how you do it... | ||
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Steglich
Denmark282 Posts
On February 16 2012 13:03 Amaterasu1234 wrote: if at all possible, watch Stephano vs the colossus deathball including the mothership. The guy...has the sickest positioning and unit control that roflstomps his opponent. http://www.justin.tv/mstephano/b/308357637 @ about 1 hour 34 minutes...look at that spread...that's how you do it... Thanks, I will go watch it immediately (; But what really bothers me, is that it seems so much easier to play Protoss than Zerg in ZvP. Most Protoss do not have more than 70 apm, while im flying at around 120 average for a 30 minute game. While we have to focus so much on unit positioning, constant unit movement (lings mutas) and more bases, the protoss can just sit back and wait.. And wait until he moves out. But I guess it was similar in broodwar. Somethings do not change apparently | ||
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ETisME
12387 Posts
On February 16 2012 13:03 Amaterasu1234 wrote: if at all possible, watch Stephano vs the colossus deathball including the mothership. The guy...has the sickest positioning and unit control that roflstomps his opponent. http://www.justin.tv/mstephano/b/308357637 @ about 1 hour 34 minutes...look at that spread...that's how you do it... yea, it's possible. But it is really difficult because I have seen quite a few zerg progamer losing to it, like dimaga (twice in a row) He tried to spread it out but it wasn't enough, the ones that didn't get vortex would either get another vortex or just sniped by stalkers | ||
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