EPTI am having trouble managing my gas intake, and am not ever really sure what I should be looking for when I tech to lair. Lets say I get a 15 hatch-15 pool, when should I take my gas? should I take drones out ever? Or should I keep them in and use it to get +1? I'm just not sure if I should take a fast 3rd or whatnot, and what to do with my gas. I'm not sure if this is a detailed enough question or not, so I will try to elaborate if it doesn't make sense still.
The Zerg Help Me Thread - Page 179
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Rednaxela_19
United States150 Posts
I am having trouble managing my gas intake, and am not ever really sure what I should be looking for when I tech to lair. Lets say I get a 15 hatch-15 pool, when should I take my gas? should I take drones out ever? Or should I keep them in and use it to get +1? I'm just not sure if I should take a fast 3rd or whatnot, and what to do with my gas. I'm not sure if this is a detailed enough question or not, so I will try to elaborate if it doesn't make sense still. | ||
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Kasha_Not_Kesha
United States71 Posts
On February 14 2012 04:15 Rednaxela_19 wrote: I have a question in zvt. I am having trouble managing my gas intake, and am not ever really sure what I should be looking for when I tech to lair. Lets say I get a 15 hatch-15 pool, when should I take my gas? should I take drones out ever? Or should I keep them in and use it to get +1? I'm just not sure if I should take a fast 3rd or whatnot, and what to do with my gas. I'm not sure if this is a detailed enough question or not, so I will try to elaborate if it doesn't make sense still. try 15 hatch-15 gas-15 pool, put three guys on gas when gas finishes, mine 100 gas, take two drones off gas. When that 1 drone gets you to 100 gas for your lair, it's time to go lair. A good timing for your third (And the corresponding macro hatch) is ~ 8:00 in game time, or whenever you see that you're floating 600 minerals and have no larva to spend it on (Or if you are fully saturated on 2-base and don't feel that you need to make lings to defend an imminent push). If you think he's going for some kind of big bio push, or a bio all-in, keep all three guys on gas, throw down a baneling nest, and depending on when you think/see he's pushing, go for +1 melee(If you've got time) or just make a lot of banelings. | ||
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XxMulexX
Canada57 Posts
I am having trouble managing my gas intake, and am not ever really sure what I should be looking for when I tech to lair. Lets say I get a 15 hatch-15 pool, when should I take my gas? should I take drones out ever? Or should I keep them in and use it to get +1? I'm just not sure if I should take a fast 3rd or whatnot, and what to do with my gas. I'm not sure if this is a detailed enough question or not, so I will try to elaborate if it doesn't make sense still. There are a crapload of different ways of managing your gas, but the most basic idea behind it imo is that you want to mine as little as possible in the very early game while still being safe, and you want to start mining a lot of gas once you hit optimal saturation on 2 bases, while getting lair and making still more drones to compensate. What the last post said is one way to go about it, but it depends on your style. For example, players who like to make roaches will have to keep 3 guys mining gas, while a player who prefers strictly ling/spine to defend hellions will almost always keep only 1 or even zero guys on gas after ling speed is being researched. Obviously this can change if you face a super aggressive opening from terran, but that's the general idea as I understand it. | ||
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halpimcat
215 Posts
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Kecos
United States22 Posts
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Tristanity
Malaysia45 Posts
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
I have a question in zvt. I am having trouble managing my gas intake, and am not ever really sure what I should be looking for when I tech to lair. Lets say I get a 15 hatch-15 pool, when should I take my gas? should I take drones out ever? Or should I keep them in and use it to get +1? I'm just not sure if I should take a fast 3rd or whatnot, and what to do with my gas. I'm not sure if this is a detailed enough question or not, so I will try to elaborate if it doesn't make sense still. Most zergs these days grab all 4 gas at 44 supply. Some, like DRG, get a single gas around 20 (once they know it's not 2 rax I suppose) to get ling speed, which is fine, but in which case you remove off of gas after you get speed, and then grab all the gases (and put back into gas) at about 50 supply (since you are going speed/lair, and you already got speed, so only take it later). Standard lair timing these days in ZvT is about 55 supply, and they grab their macro hatch at same time (going lair that late means you'll have a shitton of drones, so you can make that macro hatch, and then use superior production on 3 hatches to overwhelm any timing push). Just make sure to sac an overlord at about 5:30 to make sure T expanded. +1 carapace is started after lair, but there's nothing wrong with getting it before lair. You can't really go lair too late in zvt. Hey guys, how do you know if your base is saturated without clicking ctl and selecting the drones? And whats the best saturation? I always do a 24 (including gas) on all bases That's way too few drones. You can double left click on a drone, it will select all drones. You can also just box over everything. If a queen or overlord gets snagged into the box, it's okay, your just trying to see how many drones you have, and it's not a big deal if you are off by one or two, but you could always do the simple math (ie okay I boxed all drones and the queen got included, and I know I need X amount of drones, and the number of shit i have selected is Y, so minus 1 for that queen and that's how many drones I have, +1 for each drone hiding in a geyser). When you select all drones, 1 will always be hiding in a geyser. But you should have a full group of 3x8=24 drones, and then a 2nd box where there are 4 drones (those drones in gas). You want a total of 30 drones, which translates to 28 since 2 will hide in gas. So 24 no gas, 26 1 gas, 28 2 gas. This is a full box, full box +2, full box+4. So I always box over the mineral field real wide, and make sure I have a 2nd box (assuming I took gas, if I didnt, I just want the whole box filled up). It's okay if it's slightly under or oversaturated for purposes of being quick, but I just select all drones or box over the mineral field and make sure I have a 2nd unit box because the 1st one is so full. If I want to be accurate I make sure that 2nd box has 4 drones in it, and I subtract the queens or overlords that may have been included in my boxing. I have a question with pretty much everything.. I've run into a wall mid-plat and even though I feel like I'm macroing and microing and doing everything better than my opponents, I still lose.. I'm gonna upload some replays at some point but I'd appreciate someone watching a game of mine and tell me wtf I'm doing wrong =/ Sounds like decision making, but honestly you should take a more critical look at your macro. Study how well you inject into the 10 minute mark, see if you ever get supply blocked or make an overlord too early before 10 minute. I macro very well compared to opponents at my level (according to sc2gears) and I make some pretty glaring mistakes in regards to injects and early overlords, so you should look at yourself too. Also refine your lair and third timing, watch pros play and see how their lair and third timings go. Most lower level players take way too much gas too early and start lair too quickly and third too late. What's the best way to cycle injects between bases? I currently have all my queens hotkeyed on one key and I inject by cycling through them, but sometimes I misclick and all my queens end up traveling to one base. If you know one hatch is missing a queen, just hit hold/stop after cycling an inject. You could also just slow down a little bit to make sure you don't issue an inject command when that lone hatch pops up. But I just hit Hold after cycling an inject, I never have a problem. | ||
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Tristanity
Malaysia45 Posts
On February 14 2012 20:59 Belial88 wrote: That's way too few drones. You can double left click on a drone, it will select all drones. You can also just box over everything. If a queen or overlord gets snagged into the box, it's okay, your just trying to see how many drones you have, and it's not a big deal if you are off by one or two, but you could always do the simple math (ie okay I boxed all drones and the queen got included, and I know I need X amount of drones, and the number of shit i have selected is Y, so minus 1 for that queen and that's how many drones I have, +1 for each drone hiding in a geyser). When you select all drones, 1 will always be hiding in a geyser. But you should have a full group of 3x8=24 drones, and then a 2nd box where there are 4 drones (those drones in gas). You want a total of 30 drones, which translates to 28 since 2 will hide in gas. So 24 no gas, 26 1 gas, 28 2 gas. This is a full box, full box +2, full box+4. So I always box over the mineral field real wide, and make sure I have a 2nd box (assuming I took gas, if I didnt, I just want the whole box filled up). It's okay if it's slightly under or oversaturated for purposes of being quick, but I just select all drones or box over the mineral field and make sure I have a 2nd unit box because the 1st one is so full. If I want to be accurate I make sure that 2nd box has 4 drones in it, and I subtract the queens or overlords that may have been included in my boxing. How long should this run? 3 base? Meaning I should just have 90 drones and no more? If I do get a 4th, I should just transfer them over right? | ||
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SeinGalton
South Africa387 Posts
I'm busy figuring out a a roach-less, spireless ZvP style: I'm using lings, hydra and infestors to stay alive, and then I add on Ultras and banelings to help take on a death ball in a head on fight. The idea is to wind up with a more mobile late game army than the typical Broodlord mix, allowing me to keep taking bases and to keep on crashing into the protoss army. It uses a lot of drops and harassing, and relies on good head-on engagements with the death ball and quickly remaxing to wear it down. The main consists out of varying ratios of lings, banelings, hydras, infestors and ultras depending on the composition of the Protoss army. I suppose it's akin to Coca's ZvP. I'm having a little trouble with the opening, optimizing it and covering all the different protoss timings. I'm pretty sure it needs to be a two base play, followed by a double expand: I don't see a way to safely take a third and tech up at once. I don't have a replay as of yet - I don't get to ladder very often as I don't have internet at home - but I was wondering wether anyone knew about a good reference I could look at? I've been looking at Leenock's ZvP from MLG, most notably his games against Huk, and Zenio's games against Naniwa (from IEM, I believe?). Both of them transition into Mutas, however, instead of Hive tech. I've also had a look at Coca's MLG games, but those are slightly outdated as he uses NP to deal with larger threats. I'm still exploring the style and trying to figure out the timings for myself, so I don't have a specific question. Rather, I was hoping for thoughts on this style or, better yet, if someone could point me to some replays that I could really dig into? Thanks for reading! | ||
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XxMulexX
Canada57 Posts
Most zergs these days grab all 4 gas at 44 supply. I don't know who's streams or tournaments you watch but what you describe is basically the ice fisher build and I haven't seen that being used in a competitive game for ages. Every single zerg *always* gets at least one gas before 20 supply or so. You want a total of 30 drones, which translates to 28 since 2 will hide in gas. So 24 no gas, 26 1 gas, 28 2 gas. This is a full box, full box +2, full box+4. Umm I'm pretty sure that optimal saturation is 16 drones on minerals, while 24 is full saturation, which you basically don't want to get since your economy will be way better if you spread your drones on more bases. Getting 30 drones on every base is crazy, do you really get 90 drones on 3 bases??? | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
On February 14 2012 21:08 Tristanity wrote: How long should this run? 3 base? Meaning I should just have 90 drones and no more? If I do get a 4th, I should just transfer them over right? Well in early-midgame the supply cap isn't an issue so yea, get up to 90 drones provided your allowed to drone that much (ie don't need to make that many units). Then you just replace as spines until necessary but ideally you want about 80 drones, at least 75, so about 3 boxes full. Generally you want 3 mineral fields mining and as many gas bases as you can. I've never had an issue with having too many workers in a game, it means you can remax on broodlords or whatever quicker. | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
I don't know who's streams or tournaments you watch but what you describe is basically the ice fisher build and I haven't seen that being used in a competitive game for ages. Every single zerg *always* gets at least one gas before 20 supply or so. I wouldn't call it 'ice fisher' but most zergs now have incorporated the benefit of 3-4 queens in the early game in ZvT and the idea of taking all gases at 40+. You can watch any ZvT of drg, leenock, sen, idra, et cetera, any gsl zerg really, and you'll notice a theme of: - 1/none gases until 40+ supply, then all 4 gas taken. - Macro hatch at 45-55, lair at 55. - Using 3-4 queens for early game defense, with 1-2 spines, and creep spread being extremely important. Many, many zergs don't get any gas, and usually just get all 4 at ~45 supply. Sen, Nestea... any gsl zerg really. Some, like DRG, get a gas from 15-30 for speed, but usually remove drones. Some might leave drones in, but that doesn't change that they get all (ie 3-4 gases) at about 45 supply and get ~50-55 lair and a macro hatch on 2 base. The idea is that speed doesn't do anything useful against a walled in Terran, especially one who makes hellions, and that spine/queen is better for dealing with hellions in the early game than speedlings. Also, speedling is useless against 2 rax aggression since it won't finish in time, so a lot of zergs only get the gas 20+ supply when they know it's not a 2 rax (or rather, on a map where 2 rax is not useful). Umm I'm pretty sure that optimal saturation is 16 drones on minerals, while 24 is full saturation, which you basically don't want to get since your economy will be way better if you spread your drones on more bases. Getting 30 drones on every base is crazy, do you really get 90 drones on 3 bases??? 'Optimal' is whatever you need. You want to drone as much as you can, so 'optimal' when you know the opponent is never going to attack is a 24 drones on minerals. If you see T has expanded, then you know they can't really do any pressure that a few queens/spines can't handle, so yea, 40+ drones on 2 base. If you stop droning at 32 in ZvT against a hellion expand, then you are basically just all-in since you will be so far behind. So most Zergs go up to about 40+ drones in ZvT before really making units, and the idea is you want your third ASAP, and you'll want to completely drone up that third ASAP. Yea, you are fine getting 90 drones on 3 base before 200/200 becomes an issue. You can easily turn those drones into spines when approaching max, this is how ret, nestea, sen, etc usually play it. You want 3 bases full running, so having a grand total of 80 drones is about where people stop, just a few drones short I suppose of 30+30+30. Having about 80 drones spread on 4 bases is nice, where about you want to be. | ||
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Vega62a
946 Posts
On February 14 2012 23:31 Belial88 wrote: 'Optimal' is whatever you need. You want to drone as much as you can, so 'optimal' when you know the opponent is never going to attack is a 24 drones on minerals. If you see T has expanded, then you know they can't really do any pressure that a few queens/spines can't handle, so yea, 40+ drones on 2 base. If you stop droning at 32 in ZvT against a hellion expand, then you are basically just all-in since you will be so far behind. So most Zergs go up to about 40+ drones in ZvT before really making units, and the idea is you want your third ASAP, and you'll want to completely drone up that third ASAP. Yea, you are fine getting 90 drones on 3 base before 200/200 becomes an issue. You can easily turn those drones into spines when approaching max, this is how ret, nestea, sen, etc usually play it. You want 3 bases full running, so having a grand total of 80 drones is about where people stop, just a few drones short I suppose of 30+30+30. Having about 80 drones spread on 4 bases is nice, where about you want to be. I think you're misinterpreting what he means by "optimal," and answering a different question than what was asked - the most efficient (in terms of drones built to income rate) way to harvest off of a base is 22 drones - 16 on minerals (2 per patch), and 6 on gas. As an aside, something I've been doing lately in zvt is droning to saturation (or slight over-) on 2 base + macro hatch, and then committing to making units until my 3rd goes up (which is at a fairly normal time). At that point you can saturate it with a round of drones as quickly as you would have by transferring oversaturated drones, and it's safer since you have a window where you can make units without putting yourself behind (if you just blindly made drones, you would just over-saturate yourself and add nothing to your income rate). I've no idea if this is right-minded thinking, since I'm not doing it at a particularly high level, but it's something to play around with if you're having trouble getting your saturation right on 3 bases. | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
As an aside, something I've been doing lately in zvt is droning to saturation (or slight over-) on 2 base + macro hatch, and then committing to making units until my 3rd goes up (which is at a fairly normal time). I think that's the idea with zvt these days. Get ~50 drones on 2 base, make units, get third as soon as safe, instantly saturate it as soon as you hold the 2 base timing (or before, if you are confident in your abilities). | ||
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Vega62a
946 Posts
On February 15 2012 00:10 Belial88 wrote: Yes, I understand what he means. Above 16 workers means marginally diminishing returns on each additional worker. I know that. But I think he's confusing on what you need, if you were to just stop droning at 16+16 in a ZvT, you would just lose in any macro game. And having only 16 on minerals would probably mean you can't support your gas income, even with mutas. I think that's the idea with zvt these days. Get ~50 drones on 2 base, make units, get third as soon as safe, instantly saturate it as soon as you hold the 2 base timing (or before, if you are confident in your abilities). Agreed, you can't stop droning at 2base saturation in a zvt entirely, though I think the point at which you stop until your 3rd goes up is open for debate. | ||
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shroomdizzle
1 Post
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Maggost
Venezuela296 Posts
On February 15 2012 01:11 shroomdizzle wrote: So when i play i seem to get supply blocked fairly often or close to it and i panick and just make say 5 overlords all at once. Is this bad? It opens up alot of supply but i do spend 500 mins not sure if this would be considered bad macro. That happens to me a lot but if i have a good saturation, i think it's not big deal to loss those minerals. | ||
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Amaterasu1234
United States317 Posts
On February 15 2012 01:20 Maggost wrote: That happens to me a lot but if i have a good saturation, i think it's not big deal to loss those minerals. Until I got just under high masters, this was never a problem for me. Then, when I was making drones vs FFE, the toss would own me hardcore in harvesters because I spent so many extra minerals in unnecessary overlords to have a supply of 40/102. I don't think it matters so much in zvt, though. | ||
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Sway.746
United States95 Posts
It feels like I'm always going to lose my third if I take one early, because I can't make enough lings and roaches to beat that army (especially with decent forcefields). The only way I've found I can beat it handily is to take out sentries with baneling drops, but that seems a bit fragile. Robo tech means an observer is around, so I don't think burrow movement is a great strategy... What do you guys think? | ||
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TFS
United States53 Posts
Now, I've been doing some reading of this thread (mostly the most recent posts) and have already got some good information on how much to drone vT, when to take a third/make a lair, etc. I still have a few issues, though. One major problem for me is vP when my opponent is fast expanding and I take a fast third, I will either get lucky and he won't attack me for long enough to drone a little more and start pumping out units, or he'll come in soon after I take my third and crush me. I try to have good scouting with overlord spread, keeping a few lings at his front, taking towers, etc. But even if I see the attack coming, I usually get smashed. One example was on Cloud Kingdom today (first time playing the map, aheh) when I took my third, droned a bit, and saw his attack coming, but managed to get around 24 roaches. Now, upon watching the replay I see he had 8 gateways, so it was a little all-inny, but I'm wondering if there was something I could have done better to hold this off. He had 1/1 and I had nothing. I was thinking I should get faster upgrades, but I'm not sure if that's the whole answer. My biggest problem, though, is I don't know how to spend my money. I get this sweet economy going with 2-3 bases that are really nicely saturated and start to get my lair and then I just get this huge bankroll that builds up and I feel stupid. I get supply blocked every now and then, but it isn't an extremely common thing. I know not getting supply blocked will help, but surely there is something else I can be spendnig my money on? When I'm just making drones, the money stockpiles. Like I said earlier, faster upgrades may be one option. But one thing I never do is take a macro hatch. Is this commonplace in all matchups? Should I be getting a macro hatch every game? If so, when? Sorry for the wealth of text I presented you all with. I really appreciate anyone taking the time to read this and help me out. :D | ||
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