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blackwaltz3
54 Posts
I need some help with 2 base immortals timing. Here is the replay http://drop.sc/108492 Can someone point out how I should have engaged the push? Is it the unit composition? (since all I had were roaches) Should I have built more spines at the third as well as lings to come in from the back? | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On February 11 2012 18:21 blackwaltz3 wrote: Hi I need some help with 2 base immortals timing. Here is the replay http://drop.sc/108492 Can someone point out how I should have engaged the push? Is it the unit composition? (since all I had were roaches) Should I have built more spines at the third as well as lings to come in from the back? You can't hold an immortal timing with just roaches. You have to have either hydra's in the mix or infestors (like 5 infestors I imagine). I have never tried holding with just roach/infestor or ling/infestor but roach/hydra can hold it fine. I make a hydra den so that if I see this timing coming I can just pump roaches to defend vs the immortals. But yeah pure roach/ling will die to a properly done 2 base immortal timing with FF of course. Without FF you can hold with just roach/ling I think but with FF its near impossible. | ||
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Host-
New Zealand459 Posts
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
But recently, what I've been doing, is going 1 gas (ling speed you know), keeping on gas (or 1 drone in gas until roach warren), and then ~35 supply get third, and ~35-40 get roach warren. At 40-45 supply, just pump 100% units to defend, then get lair once you can hold him off (either you hold off the sentry/zealot, or you know you can) on 3 gas. Maynard drones perfectly so you get a slightly higher income using 3 mineral fields with the same worker count. It's what's been working for me recently. Then just play it out like fast third vs FFE - mass roaches, deny third, win, or get mutas and play that whole muta game. I like to max out roach/ling, and if the game isn't decided then, get roach/banedrop/infestor at 200/200 (not any earlier) and push, trade, get bl/infestor. | ||
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Obbalord
Germany166 Posts
ofc superearly gateway allins there u need rroach, but why in the midgame? i never have problems against roach als p :/ | ||
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Baseic
Netherlands310 Posts
On February 12 2012 00:43 Obbalord wrote: One simple question: Im master protoss and offracing zerg atm, i never understood why zerg only build so much roach in this matchup imo MASSS hydras + corrupter is just better ,hydras have more dps and dont get so much dmg from stalker and immortals are useless, and hydras dont get owned by forcefield that easy ofc superearly gateway allins there u need rroach, but why in the midgame? i never have problems against roach als p :/ Not enough gas, collosi rape hydras, hydras are very slow. | ||
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Olsson
Sweden931 Posts
On February 12 2012 01:02 Baseic wrote: Not enough gas, collosi rape hydras, hydras are very slow. And hydras suck if you go high numbers with them. They're too fragile they actually just die to blink stalkers if you only got pure hydras. | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On February 12 2012 01:02 Baseic wrote: Not enough gas, collosi rape hydras, hydras are very slow. This. Colossi kill Hydra's so fast and both that unit composition is way to gas heavy. | ||
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Tribuno
Italy261 Posts
2 question: 1. i have a very nice win% in ZvT but when my opponent plays mech i ALWAYS lost.. i have already asked here and someone told me go for fast 3 base, 70 drones and mass roaches.. but i need some more help. I always have to defend blu flame hellion so i have to build some roaches in the early stage of the game instead of drones because i simply can't defend BF hellion with only lings/queen/spines. and especially on tal darim if i want a fast third i have to take it a little bit far away and its not easy do defend effectively. And when the terran pushes with some thor, BF hellion and tank i can't fight him with my roaches, i always lost.. should i go for counter attack? Is there a guide? a build order or something that explain some steps on how to play vs mech? 2. Vs toss FFE i always play fast third losira/nestea style and its great.. but how have i to react to 2 stargate play? generally i tech to idra as fast as possible but i also need some static defense (spore) and some more queens.. how many of them i need on each base? i think many times i overreact building 3 spore per base. | ||
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Synergy
United States90 Posts
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
1. i have a very nice win% in ZvT but when my opponent plays mech i ALWAYS lost.. i have already asked here and someone told me go for fast 3 base, 70 drones and mass roaches.. but i need some more help. I always have to defend blu flame hellion so i have to build some roaches in the early stage of the game instead of drones because i simply can't defend BF hellion with only lings/queen/spines. and especially on tal darim if i want a fast third i have to take it a little bit far away and its not easy do defend effectively. And when the terran pushes with some thor, BF hellion and tank i can't fight him with my roaches, i always lost.. should i go for counter attack? Is there a guide? a build order or something that explain some steps on how to play vs mech? I mean, you are on 2 base. You have 2 spines, you defend the hellions just fine. If you notice it's blueflame or mass hellions, obviously more than 1 fact, then you get a roach warren, a panic spine or two, build a few extra overlords so you can make enough roaches to hold his 1 base aggression and come out ahead. Otherwise, it's just standard play. I generally sac an overlord at 5:30 in ZvT to make sure they expanded and see if they are going banshees or mass hellions, then get lair and spire and macro hatch. With an overseer if I see mech, I'll keep the spire (eventually want GS) and throw down roach warren. You only need a few roaches to secure that third, just drone up on 2 base until getting those roaches out. Even against mech, unless they are doing 1 base hellion all-ins, you don't want to make roaches until 50+ supply in any match-up anyways, for like you said, they hurt drone count a lot. Then once you bust out with roaches, you double expand, drone up hardcore, then max 200/200 roaches. If he goes pure hellion/tank, you have that spire to punish him for it. I try to stay on 3 gas until I get the third up, then 4 gas. Stay off the gas, more on minerals, until you hit 200/200, to which you go for infestors, then BL. If you are losing to mech, it sounds like your macro is just off. Provide replays, but it shouldn't ever be a problem to get a 200/200 roach army, a-move to terran's base, do at least a somewhat favorable trade that at least buys you time to get infestors, maintain security with roach/infestor (mass IT fucks mech up) until you can get BL. Mech just can't get enough to match a 4 base zerg massing roaches. 2. If toss is going double stargate (4 gas taken quickly, you saw with overlord at natural, with 2 sac'd overlords you saw empty base if not the double stargates, ie no mass gateways), it's an all-in, and treat it as such. Drone up hardcore since he won't have any gateway units, get 4 gas and lair and tech quickly, and put down lots of spores. Start off with 1 spore at main and third/natural (whichever is more vulnerable), then get a few extra queens and add spores incrementally. Eventually you'll want 3 spores per base, 1-2 queens per base, and 1-3 extra spores moving around or at the rally points so he doesn't pick off overlord or what have you. Eventually pop out the corruptors, push back with mass ling/corruptor. You can go speedbane and finish him off if he really dedicated (means no sentries to block them), or just play with a huge lead and deny his third while securing your fourth. The main thing is don't put 3 spore down immediately. Just 1 spore, and then add on. You want to spore up the places you think he'll go first, first. So like, I'll put 2 spores down at my third, and 1 at main. Then when the first 2 void rays arrive, I add 1 more and maybe a queen, and 1 more at main and 1 at natural. And, you know, incrementally add them up. Eventually, bam, 3 spores and 2 queens per hatch. Not all at once though. You want to be droning really hard too. | ||
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jadenx2
4 Posts
so far i've found tier 3 air to work best, ive tried roach/ling/infestor and i get destroyed. | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On February 12 2012 13:31 jadenx2 wrote: whats the best chance of beating an almost max army of Colossi, stalker/immortal ? so far i've found tier 3 air to work best, ive tried roach/ling/infestor and i get destroyed. You have to have corruptors if he has more then 2 colossi. Or broodlords those work to if you can tech fast enough corruptor/bl/infestor will beat thatn combo. But normally that combo moves out before broodlords but roach/ling/corruptor/infestor should be able to hold it (especially with spine support) | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
On February 12 2012 13:31 jadenx2 wrote: whats the best chance of beating an almost max army of Colossi, stalker/immortal ? so far i've found tier 3 air to work best, ive tried roach/ling/infestor and i get destroyed. You should be able to max out on roaches 200/200 and roll any Toss who's going mass colossi. More likely it's a macro issue than a composition issue. In fact I guarantee it. In all of my ZvPs, you use roach/ling to defend, then use speedroaches/ling to deny third. If toss goes for colossi, mutas just deny that and wreck him for teching so hard. Or, you can use 200/200 mass roaches on 3 base, just deny the third forever, and then simply trade armies when maxed while he's at 120 supply and can't get enough to stop it. If toss gets a third and colossi, you should be able to field t3 units. | ||
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Amaterasu1234
United States317 Posts
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
Ling when pool pops, see if it's reactor hellion, or he keeps rax at front (usually banshees, could be expo, could be all-in). 5:30 overlord sac, to confirm expo. if it's mass hellion, hellion/marauder, or hellion/banshee, you'll see gas/nogas and the stuff, since there are no marines with these builds. if it's mass rax, obvious mass rax... If 3+ marines, likely banshees, usually tech, see if he has double gas to confirm but marines = no hellion, usually means banshees. That's it really. You can't really deny an overlord scout, because anything more than 2 marines is usually a huge tell, anything more than 3 is like a dead on confirmation he's making banshees. Otherwise you get the overlord in. You can't hide a CC, it's huge, and always either next to their main or by the ledge to natural. So either overlord gets in and you see, or overlord gets denied by 3+ marines before it could see anything. If he has marines to deny overlord, it means you can poke his front with ling to confirm what's going on. | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On February 12 2012 14:45 Belial88 wrote: You should be able to max out on roaches 200/200 and roll any Toss who's going mass colossi. More likely it's a macro issue than a composition issue. In fact I guarantee it. In all of my ZvPs, you use roach/ling to defend, then use speedroaches/ling to deny third. If toss goes for colossi, mutas just deny that and wreck him for teching so hard. Or, you can use 200/200 mass roaches on 3 base, just deny the third forever, and then simply trade armies when maxed while he's at 120 supply and can't get enough to stop it. If toss gets a third and colossi, you should be able to field t3 units. What lol. 200/200 roaches will not roll a toss who's going mass colossi, especially if he uses force field. If that were true no toss would go colossi ever. Mutalisks/corruptors deal with colossi yes but just roaches do not. Also a toss can take a third vs roach/ling aggression if he plays it correctly. You should also be factoring in the stalker/immortals as well. | ||
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halpimcat
215 Posts
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Tribuno
Italy261 Posts
On February 12 2012 09:57 Belial88 wrote: I mean, you are on 2 base. You have 2 spines, you defend the hellions just fine. If you notice it's blueflame or mass hellions, obviously more than 1 fact, then you get a roach warren, a panic spine or two, build a few extra overlords so you can make enough roaches to hold his 1 base aggression and come out ahead. Otherwise, it's just standard play. I generally sac an overlord at 5:30 in ZvT to make sure they expanded and see if they are going banshees or mass hellions, then get lair and spire and macro hatch. With an overseer if I see mech, I'll keep the spire (eventually want GS) and throw down roach warren. You only need a few roaches to secure that third, just drone up on 2 base until getting those roaches out. Even against mech, unless they are doing 1 base hellion all-ins, you don't want to make roaches until 50+ supply in any match-up anyways, for like you said, they hurt drone count a lot. Then once you bust out with roaches, you double expand, drone up hardcore, then max 200/200 roaches. If he goes pure hellion/tank, you have that spire to punish him for it. I try to stay on 3 gas until I get the third up, then 4 gas. Stay off the gas, more on minerals, until you hit 200/200, to which you go for infestors, then BL. If you are losing to mech, it sounds like your macro is just off. Provide replays, but it shouldn't ever be a problem to get a 200/200 roach army, a-move to terran's base, do at least a somewhat favorable trade that at least buys you time to get infestors, maintain security with roach/infestor (mass IT fucks mech up) until you can get BL. Mech just can't get enough to match a 4 base zerg massing roaches. 2. If toss is going double stargate (4 gas taken quickly, you saw with overlord at natural, with 2 sac'd overlords you saw empty base if not the double stargates, ie no mass gateways), it's an all-in, and treat it as such. Drone up hardcore since he won't have any gateway units, get 4 gas and lair and tech quickly, and put down lots of spores. Start off with 1 spore at main and third/natural (whichever is more vulnerable), then get a few extra queens and add spores incrementally. Eventually you'll want 3 spores per base, 1-2 queens per base, and 1-3 extra spores moving around or at the rally points so he doesn't pick off overlord or what have you. Eventually pop out the corruptors, push back with mass ling/corruptor. You can go speedbane and finish him off if he really dedicated (means no sentries to block them), or just play with a huge lead and deny his third while securing your fourth. The main thing is don't put 3 spore down immediately. Just 1 spore, and then add on. You want to spore up the places you think he'll go first, first. So like, I'll put 2 spores down at my third, and 1 at main. Then when the first 2 void rays arrive, I add 1 more and maybe a queen, and 1 more at main and 1 at natural. And, you know, incrementally add them up. Eventually, bam, 3 spores and 2 queens per hatch. Not all at once though. You want to be droning really hard too. ok thanks for the suggestion, i think add more spore incrementally is right to do and it doesn't hurt mu economy so hard like put down 9 spore at the same time (or anyway when i have the resources). About mech, i'll work on my macro and try to hit 200/200 roaches as fast as i can building a spire in the meanwhile.. maybe i only need practice! Thanks. | ||
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yzzdups
United States32 Posts
Sorry if this has been addressed. 177 pages is a bunch to skim through. | ||
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