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On February 07 2012 18:43 VoirDire wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2012 16:18 Bearwidme wrote:
Denying toss thirds using roaches/lings - Do you just all out commit to it once you max out on roach/ling? I find i keep getting crushed by forcefields even in relatively wide chokes (metalopolis etc). When you max out on roach/ling, your primary goal should be to force engagements and trade units cost effectively instead of trying to deny the third at all costs. A protoss death balls strength increases exponentially the more units he has. Try to keep his unit count low, most protoss won't move out until they have 150+ in army value. When he takes his third, take a 4th and a 5th and keep trading units with him. Hopefully he'll mine out his main before he can create a death ball. The key to aggressive roach/ling mid-game is positioning. Don't attack straight into force fields. On metalopolis for example, you can position your units between his natural and his 3rd and attack wherever his units are not, and at the same time attack his 3rd from the other ramp.
What about on maps like TDA, where they can easily wall in with cannon/gateway and sentry? Is it better to get a 3 base roachling max, burrow move/drop tech, or some infestors to infested terran bust the wall?
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On February 09 2012 08:31 Sc2Invader wrote:
You just need to know 3 fucking things to know exactly what the terran is going:
Gas timings. Second gas is much more important.
Wall in.
Marine count. Hellion count.
That's 4 things, but yea thats right, just a matter of getting that information
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On February 09 2012 13:19 Host- wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2012 08:31 Sc2Invader wrote:
You just need to know 3 fucking things to know exactly what the terran is going:
Gas timings. Second gas is much more important.
Wall in.
Marine count. Hellion count.
That's 4 things, but yea thats right, just a matter of getting that information
Sorry.
Gas - Overlord should always work there. If the gas is already taken click on the geysir to see how many gas is allready mined.
Wall in - Hidden Ling like a probe in PvZ. Send him to his wall when the hellion arrives or dont but they already should.
On some Maps the " Gas Overlord "will work too.
Count of Marines and Hellions -You dont have to but you could take his second gas with your scouting drone. If you combine the count of marines attack the geysir in addition to the hellion timing it can be a tell later on. Also you know if a bunkerrush is incoming or the bunkerrush is fake what happens sometimes. You also shut down fast 2 starport banshees a little bit.
You see the hellions in front of your base.
If the hidden ling works its the biggest tell cause you know now how many hellions he will go.
Add on : If i go a creapheavy style i add 2 groups of 8 speedlings. Lets say 1 and 2. 1 just attack the hellions. 2 trys to run behind the hellions and cut off the way back home. I think its pretty strong cause the terrans play too greedy this days and just rely her safety on 4 hellions. If i scoutet a early second gas i go into a baneling bust.
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A general question for ZvP, inspired by Idra (and my own lost games):
When do you take the time to tech to hive and broods in ZvP? Obviously it's a personal preference, but it seems to me like if the protoss gets his 3rd up safely in spite of whatever aggression you've offered (mutas, bust, etc), your only option is to force army trades with him while teching to bl/infestor and expanding. (Seems like if the protoss starts to sit back on 3 base, you want to get yourself on 5 base, or at least 5 bases worth of gas, ASAP.) Otherwise you seem guaranteed to end up sitting on a gajillion bases and still losing to his +3 colossus/stalker/sentry deathball.
Is there something I'm missing in this train of logic? Or does "take 2 more bases with gas, tech immiediately, attack even if it's unfavorable as long as you don't donate your whole army" seem like a good game plan vs a protoss who's gotten his 3rd up?
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On February 10 2012 01:26 Vega62a wrote:
A general question for ZvP, inspired by Idra (and my own lost games):
When do you take the time to tech to hive and broods in ZvP? Obviously it's a personal preference, but it seems to me like if the protoss gets his 3rd up safely in spite of whatever aggression you've offered (mutas, bust, etc), your only option is to force army trades with him while teching to bl/infestor and expanding. (Seems like if the protoss starts to sit back on 3 base, you want to get yourself on 5 base, or at least 5 bases worth of gas, ASAP.) Otherwise you seem guaranteed to end up sitting on a gajillion bases and still losing to his +3 colossus/stalker/sentry deathball.
Is there something I'm missing in this train of logic? Or does "take 2 more bases with gas, tech immiediately, attack even if it's unfavorable as long as you don't donate your whole army" seem like a good game plan vs a protoss who's gotten his 3rd up?
You've sort of got the right idea with your final paragraph. The way I play my ZvP is to max out as fast as I can on roach ling, which, depending on what path my opponent goes, is typically 12 mins. After maxing out I will focus on denying their 3rd, and trading efficiently in with their army. Whilst doing that I will take a 4th, and add on my next 4 gas's (8 total at this point).
My next sort of step is maxing out on roach festor, with as many spines as I feel neccessary. During this I will be teching to Hive. A cute little "trick" I guess you could call it is that if you start your spire and hive at the same time, they will finish at the same time aswell which obviously means you can start your greater spire straight away. The reason for the spines is that there is a point in time where you're trying to get rid of your roaches, whilst making your broods, and your very risky. With good infestor control and adequate spine numbers you will be safe.
After that you simply start slow pushing. If you see a mothership, split your broods into small groups, and then proceed to win the game.
Obviously thats just an overview of my typical ZvP, and there are various nuances that will affect what I do everygame, such as responding to different openers ect.
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On February 10 2012 01:39 Host- wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2012 01:26 Vega62a wrote:
A general question for ZvP, inspired by Idra (and my own lost games):
When do you take the time to tech to hive and broods in ZvP? Obviously it's a personal preference, but it seems to me like if the protoss gets his 3rd up safely in spite of whatever aggression you've offered (mutas, bust, etc), your only option is to force army trades with him while teching to bl/infestor and expanding. (Seems like if the protoss starts to sit back on 3 base, you want to get yourself on 5 base, or at least 5 bases worth of gas, ASAP.) Otherwise you seem guaranteed to end up sitting on a gajillion bases and still losing to his +3 colossus/stalker/sentry deathball.
Is there something I'm missing in this train of logic? Or does "take 2 more bases with gas, tech immiediately, attack even if it's unfavorable as long as you don't donate your whole army" seem like a good game plan vs a protoss who's gotten his 3rd up? You've sort of got the right idea with your final paragraph. The way I play my ZvP is to max out as fast as I can on roach ling, which, depending on what path my opponent goes, is typically 12 mins. After maxing out I will focus on denying their 3rd, and trading efficiently in with their army. Whilst doing that I will take a 4th, and add on my next 4 gas's (8 total at this point). My next sort of step is maxing out on roach festor, with as many spines as I feel neccessary. During this I will be teching to Hive. A cute little "trick" I guess you could call it is that if you start your spire and hive at the same time, they will finish at the same time aswell which obviously means you can start your greater spire straight away. The reason for the spines is that there is a point in time where you're trying to get rid of your roaches, whilst making your broods, and your very risky. With good infestor control and adequate spine numbers you will be safe. After that you simply start slow pushing. If you see a mothership, split your broods into small groups, and then proceed to win the game. Obviously thats just an overview of my typical ZvP, and there are various nuances that will affect what I do everygame, such as responding to different openers ect.
Makes sense, more or less - I personally tend to go midgame with roach/ling/hydra, only because my control is too sloppy for infestors right now and I feel like you need tech (hydras or infestors) to beat a 7gate +2 blink stalker allin (which even Diamonds can execute with enough effectiveness to win games). I like the spines as well - since the whole point is to delay your brood lords.
Obviously all this is based on the idea that the game stabilizes at some point and that he doesn't just press an allin until he wins or loses, and that neither of us took critical damage at any point.
Any other thoughts on this topic, anybody?
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On February 10 2012 03:41 Vega62a wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2012 01:39 Host- wrote:On February 10 2012 01:26 Vega62a wrote:
A general question for ZvP, inspired by Idra (and my own lost games):
When do you take the time to tech to hive and broods in ZvP? Obviously it's a personal preference, but it seems to me like if the protoss gets his 3rd up safely in spite of whatever aggression you've offered (mutas, bust, etc), your only option is to force army trades with him while teching to bl/infestor and expanding. (Seems like if the protoss starts to sit back on 3 base, you want to get yourself on 5 base, or at least 5 bases worth of gas, ASAP.) Otherwise you seem guaranteed to end up sitting on a gajillion bases and still losing to his +3 colossus/stalker/sentry deathball.
Is there something I'm missing in this train of logic? Or does "take 2 more bases with gas, tech immiediately, attack even if it's unfavorable as long as you don't donate your whole army" seem like a good game plan vs a protoss who's gotten his 3rd up? You've sort of got the right idea with your final paragraph. The way I play my ZvP is to max out as fast as I can on roach ling, which, depending on what path my opponent goes, is typically 12 mins. After maxing out I will focus on denying their 3rd, and trading efficiently in with their army. Whilst doing that I will take a 4th, and add on my next 4 gas's (8 total at this point). My next sort of step is maxing out on roach festor, with as many spines as I feel neccessary. During this I will be teching to Hive. A cute little "trick" I guess you could call it is that if you start your spire and hive at the same time, they will finish at the same time aswell which obviously means you can start your greater spire straight away. The reason for the spines is that there is a point in time where you're trying to get rid of your roaches, whilst making your broods, and your very risky. With good infestor control and adequate spine numbers you will be safe. After that you simply start slow pushing. If you see a mothership, split your broods into small groups, and then proceed to win the game. Obviously thats just an overview of my typical ZvP, and there are various nuances that will affect what I do everygame, such as responding to different openers ect. Makes sense, more or less - I personally tend to go midgame with roach/ling/hydra, only because my control is too sloppy for infestors right now and I feel like you need tech (hydras or infestors) to beat a 7gate +2 blink stalker allin (which even Diamonds can execute with enough effectiveness to win games). I like the spines as well - since the whole point is to delay your brood lords. Obviously all this is based on the idea that the game stabilizes at some point and that he doesn't just press an allin until he wins or loses, and that neither of us took critical damage at any point. Any other thoughts on this topic, anybody?
I opt to go for 2 base muta plays against Protoss despite what they go for. If you harass enough of his probes, pylons, tech buildings without losing muta's (which is perfectly possible with good micro) he will respond most likely with stalkers and cannons. If he then goes for blink stalkers, you just keep making muta's and upgrade them and make sure to run like 5 into his main so all his stalkers move there, while your big muta bomb goes to his second base and destroy all probes and pylons there.
In the meanwhile while you go muta's and properly harass, you will be able to get a 3rd base up and keep making zerglings and ofc attack upgrade those and your muta's to 2/2. Also don't forget to make spine crawlers for defence.
When you properly harass the protoss he will either GG already or he will be going to move out in a base race. This is where you use all your zerglings and muta's to just attack his base and in the meanwhile mass expand on the map. Your spines, queens (and the roach warren you made to defend any early attack) will buy you enough time to survive the base trade.
Edit: this may be a bit off to the topic you guys were talking about, but if you can't proper use infestors against blink stalkers, there is no way you can win with ling roach only  So it may be more viable to swap either to another build or practice your infestor play
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Okay, I've been having problems against the blue flame/tank/thor mech style of T. I cannot figure out a good timing to hit on an attack. It seems like if I try to go fast mutas against this style, they tend to use all those excess minerals on turrets, and I can't get any real damage done, plus they get their thors out pretty fast. I've done overlord drops with some success, dropping as soon as his units hit the middle of the map, but this also isn't too reliable as far as I'm concerned. You can never really fight this army, it seems like. I dunno. If anyone has any ideas, I would appreciate it.
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Does anyone else find one of those timer things to tell you to inject is a good idea? I feel like if you miss one it's off for the rest of the game, but just being reminded of it might be a good thing to ingrain a good habit? should I bother? thoughts?
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How do you guys normally deal with a little bunker pressure followed by a reaper opening.
what happens to me is the bunker pressure forces me to pull drones, and delays a queen at one expansion, so the reapers get really annoying and alwasy manage to pick off a couple of drones.
i remember watching spanishiwa's stream, and he said he had a way to not loose even a single drone if he micros right.
how do i do this?
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On February 10 2012 03:41 Vega62a wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2012 01:39 Host- wrote:On February 10 2012 01:26 Vega62a wrote:
A general question for ZvP, inspired by Idra (and my own lost games):
When do you take the time to tech to hive and broods in ZvP? Obviously it's a personal preference, but it seems to me like if the protoss gets his 3rd up safely in spite of whatever aggression you've offered (mutas, bust, etc), your only option is to force army trades with him while teching to bl/infestor and expanding. (Seems like if the protoss starts to sit back on 3 base, you want to get yourself on 5 base, or at least 5 bases worth of gas, ASAP.) Otherwise you seem guaranteed to end up sitting on a gajillion bases and still losing to his +3 colossus/stalker/sentry deathball.
Is there something I'm missing in this train of logic? Or does "take 2 more bases with gas, tech immiediately, attack even if it's unfavorable as long as you don't donate your whole army" seem like a good game plan vs a protoss who's gotten his 3rd up? You've sort of got the right idea with your final paragraph. The way I play my ZvP is to max out as fast as I can on roach ling, which, depending on what path my opponent goes, is typically 12 mins. After maxing out I will focus on denying their 3rd, and trading efficiently in with their army. Whilst doing that I will take a 4th, and add on my next 4 gas's (8 total at this point). My next sort of step is maxing out on roach festor, with as many spines as I feel neccessary. During this I will be teching to Hive. A cute little "trick" I guess you could call it is that if you start your spire and hive at the same time, they will finish at the same time aswell which obviously means you can start your greater spire straight away. The reason for the spines is that there is a point in time where you're trying to get rid of your roaches, whilst making your broods, and your very risky. With good infestor control and adequate spine numbers you will be safe. After that you simply start slow pushing. If you see a mothership, split your broods into small groups, and then proceed to win the game. Obviously thats just an overview of my typical ZvP, and there are various nuances that will affect what I do everygame, such as responding to different openers ect. Makes sense, more or less - I personally tend to go midgame with roach/ling/hydra, only because my control is too sloppy for infestors right now and I feel like you need tech (hydras or infestors) to beat a 7gate +2 blink stalker allin (which even Diamonds can execute with enough effectiveness to win games). I like the spines as well - since the whole point is to delay your brood lords. Obviously all this is based on the idea that the game stabilizes at some point and that he doesn't just press an allin until he wins or loses, and that neither of us took critical damage at any point. Any other thoughts on this topic, anybody?
I also like going Hydras in ZvP. I, and many others feel as though you need to be quite aggressive to make this work. So kinda put the teching on hold whilst you do it and focus on pumping out roach hydra (corrupters if he has collossus).
If you can apply constant pressure with roach hydra and deny the 3rd then you win. 2 base pushes aren't so strong if you engage correctly, and have been constantly wittling down their "massive" unit count.
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On February 10 2012 11:02 Monoxided wrote:
Okay, I've been having problems against the blue flame/tank/thor mech style of T. I cannot figure out a good timing to hit on an attack. It seems like if I try to go fast mutas against this style, they tend to use all those excess minerals on turrets, and I can't get any real damage done, plus they get their thors out pretty fast. I've done overlord drops with some success, dropping as soon as his units hit the middle of the map, but this also isn't too reliable as far as I'm concerned. You can never really fight this army, it seems like. I dunno. If anyone has any ideas, I would appreciate it.
I got a build but its very all in style.
Get good timed roaches for the hellions. 4-5 should be enought. Drone up hard on 2 bases. Lair.
Drop upgrades. Mass roaches and get 4 banelings. You also can get burrow or Roach speed. I dont know whats better.
Drop roaches next to siege tanks so the tanks cant attack. If he pulls scvs to repair drop the banelings on them.
Hellions arent a problem.
Important : Produce some more overlords as you need for supply. Let them empty and get them in front.
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Hey, random question guys. Just wondering if guardian shield reduces the damage from a spine crawler? Because I know it does for all ranged attacks, but it doesn't really seem like a giraffe headbutt is a ranged attack necessarily. Thanks in advance for anyone answering this question :D
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United States2095 Posts
On February 10 2012 12:25 FindMuck wrote:
How do you guys normally deal with a little bunker pressure followed by a reaper opening.
what happens to me is the bunker pressure forces me to pull drones, and delays a queen at one expansion, so the reapers get really annoying and alwasy manage to pick off a couple of drones.
i remember watching spanishiwa's stream, and he said he had a way to not loose even a single drone if he micros right.
how do i do this?
Do something like a 15 hatch 14 pool, is the perfect counter to reaper. Then just don't let the bunker finish, and keep your drones all in your main until you get those 4-6 lings. And start both queens as early as possible too. Your 4 lings should be able to keep the reaper satisfied till your queens pop, then easy defense!
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On February 11 2012 02:53 Rednaxela_19 wrote:
Hey, random question guys. Just wondering if guardian shield reduces the damage from a spine crawler? Because I know it does for all ranged attacks, but it doesn't really seem like a giraffe headbutt is a ranged attack necessarily. Thanks in advance for anyone answering this question :D
First Google link says yes, but was posted in October 2010. I can't imagine them changing it though. Apparantly even though the animation seems like it is a melee attack, the mechanic behind it is a ranged attack and therefore Guardian Shield reduces damage.
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On February 11 2012 03:15 Dragnmn wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 02:53 Rednaxela_19 wrote:
Hey, random question guys. Just wondering if guardian shield reduces the damage from a spine crawler? Because I know it does for all ranged attacks, but it doesn't really seem like a giraffe headbutt is a ranged attack necessarily. Thanks in advance for anyone answering this question :D First Google link says yes, but was posted in October 2010. I can't imagine them changing it though. Apparantly even though the animation seems like it is a melee attack, the mechanic behind it is a ranged attack and therefore Guardian Shield reduces damage.
Thanks alot man. I mean, I figured it was. But it just seems a bit counter-intuitive.
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In a ZvZ (this was encountered in 2v2 when playing with a protoss against 2 zergs, but the general principle is the same), when your opponent goes mass mutalisk and you have mass hydras for defence, how can you retake map control given the speed difference? Or is the match already lost? What should the transition be?
2nd question: When encountering a 4/5 rax rush (that you've scouted), is lings/banes the right choice? I lost because of terrible unit control (move instead of attack move  ) but I think I should have been able to win that one
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United Kingdom21 Posts
Bronze Zerg here seeking advice on defending a 6 pool ZVZ. I usually go 14 pool, 14 gas ZvZ but every time somebody 6 pools I lose (3 times in my last 4 games it's happened now). My micro is really bad at the moment, and I find half of my drones not attacking his lings half the time.
Also what is the best time to scout ZvZ? Should I scout earlier than on 10 so I'm aware of it?
Should I go for an earlier pool (I've been experimenting with a 10 pool) or is it even possible to hold it off with a 14 pool but I would have to improve my micro? If you suggest micro-ing better, how exactly would I do that, I usually try a-moving but that never seems to work, they wander past half the lings without dealing damage.
Any advice is appreciated.
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On February 11 2012 06:32 Jamerrz wrote:
Bronze Zerg here seeking advice on defending a 6 pool ZVZ. I usually go 14 pool, 14 gas ZvZ but every time somebody 6 pools I lose (3 times in my last 4 games it's happened now). My micro is really bad at the moment, and I find half of my drones not attacking his lings half the time.
Also what is the best time to scout ZvZ? Should I scout earlier than on 10 so I'm aware of it?
Should I go for an earlier pool (I've been experimenting with a 10 pool) or is it even possible to hold it off with a 14 pool but I would have to improve my micro? If you suggest micro-ing better, how exactly would I do that, I usually try a-moving but that never seems to work, they wander past half the lings without dealing damage.
Any advice is appreciated.
It is possible to hold off 6pools with 14gas/14pool. I never Drone scout in ZvZ and I just play like normal until my lings come out. When the lings come into your base just try to keep your Drones alive. That's the key. Make your zerglings and your queen at their normal timings.
14g
14p
16overlord
Keep Drones Alive
16queen
18zerglings
You have to grab all the drones and right click on a mineral patch to make all the drones group together on one patch, then right click on a mineral field on the opposite side of the lings, when the drones are on top of the lings, a-click. Then click drones that are getting hurt too bad and send them back to mine minerals. Alternatively you can run your drones around until your lings/queen pop, then attack all at once. =)
Put your overlords in the walking paths, and stay calm when you see the lings. Practice teh microz! ^^
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On February 10 2012 11:02 Monoxided wrote:
Okay, I've been having problems against the blue flame/tank/thor mech style of T. I cannot figure out a good timing to hit on an attack. It seems like if I try to go fast mutas against this style, they tend to use all those excess minerals on turrets, and I can't get any real damage done, plus they get their thors out pretty fast. I've done overlord drops with some success, dropping as soon as his units hit the middle of the map, but this also isn't too reliable as far as I'm concerned. You can never really fight this army, it seems like. I dunno. If anyone has any ideas, I would appreciate it.
A very reliable way to approach mech in zvt, even after a muta opening is roach/baneling, adding in banelings after about 170-180 supply of roaches.
In fact using this after a mutalisk opener is good, as it ensures they have to keep making thor or risk having not enough if you were adding to you muta count.
Vs Mech you want high base count, and greater spire for the late game.
After max, get up to hive and start a greater spire, if you clean up his army, when he pushes, move up to brood lord/infestor/corruptor/ling, but if he still is threatening, remax on roaches to clean up what he has left, then make a move up to BL/corruptor/infestor.
I personally prefer this way to the super fast brood lord style, as a lot of times the T hits an ~180 timing that will really really threaten that timing, making it razor thin.
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EPT
