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I would have to disgagree with you, Belial. 11 overpool helped me beat a tonne of cheesers. I play on korean server as well and every toss wouldnt mind to triple pylon-block you. I dont think i ever lost to it after i switched to 11 op.
There are so many scenarios.
First of all, if toss doesnt find you immediately, it is super stupid to try to do that as your pool will be almost done.
Second, you can still break the pylon with 3 or 4 workers(i dont like to rely on the drone drill) and then ur lings are out to help. even if he reinfoces the wall, i seem to win if i execute it with no mistakes.
third i could still follow the probe with the drone, since i dont drone scout when i 11 overpool(relying on ovies, depends on a map)
Also 11 Overpool allows me 3 quick hatches. Seems like much faster than 14 pool. I m not sayin 14 pool is worse, I just feel 11op could be a great standard as well.
Maybe you lucked out, but I have certainly tested the 13 forge 17 ramp block, and lings did not take down the pylon before the cannon came online to kill them all off.
Secondly, you cannot drone drill on every map and every spawn, and on maps you can drone drill, Protoss is better off reinforcing the wall-in and then using cancel micro to profit (this was discussed in that "90% win rate in pvz cheese!" thread).
You can follow the probe with a drone whether you drone scout or not, I don't know what you are talking about there... If anything, 11 overpool puts you further behind when having to use drones to not mine because you have less drones mining.
Unless you go 10 pool or earlier, you MUST put a drone on patrol at the ramp and vulnerable locations. I would love to see replay proof where you say you used lings to stop ramp blocks with your 11 overpool, but I've actually tested where 13 forge ramp blocked an 11 overpool before lings could do anything about it.
Also 11 Overpool allows me 3 quick hatches. Seems like much faster than 14 pool. I m not sayin 14 pool is worse, I just feel 11op could be a great standard as well.
14 pool is better economically. 11 overpool is only better both economically and with larval production rate than 14 pool if you are one basing, since 14 pool, pools money. But the whole point of 14 pool, is to pool money, to get that expo.
Unless you like to 1 base (or trying to get lings into P's base for going nexus first or forge/nexus/gateway), 14 pool is superior to 11 pool in every way.
But the problem is...this guy got immortals AND colossi off two bases. Which is more or less my problem. After scouting like 5 colossi, what should I have done? If you say broods, I'll beat you. It's pretty obvious he was going to push long before I had the opportunity to get broods.
Max out on roaches. Adding in some corruptors is arguably useful too, but 200/200 roaches from a fast third zerg will kill any 2 base toss. Teching that hard means Toss will never be able to secure his third (if not die straight up to mass 200/200 roaches). If, you can't kill him with pure 200/200 roaches after droning up 100% to 80 drones on 3 hatch, then just get broodlords with the safety of your maxed roach army, as he won't be able to push in the open with 2 base or 3 base deathball for a long time.
I know you said you'd beat someone about the whole broodlord thing, and you are right, but the point is to max out 200/200 roaches first, and if that doesn't kill him straight up as it should, then you use them as safety to tech to broodlords and prevent him from moving out anytime before you have mass broodlords.
Or, you can go Corruptor/Infestor with 10+ infestors, and just striaght up own the deathball. With a higher infestor count, any warp ins of stalkers or small amount of stalkers can be taken care of with FG and IT.
how do you feel about the icefisher build after the 11ppol (gasless, 4 queeens + spines). Personally, I always go 11 overpool against toss and just delay my gas since as you said, the speed won't hit on time when the 4 gate hit, plus I can get spines which is sort of a replacement for roaches.
I feel that 14/14 kinds of give the toss a huge advantage in economy if he is going for FFE.
Icefisher is a horrible build, that was good back in the day when the metagame was focused on gateway expands and 1 base all-ins from Terran. It hurts your econ too much against the expo play of today.
If Toss is going FFE, just grab the third. If Toss is going gateway, get a gas geyser asap to get speed, and then get the third and roach warren ~35ish supply and make units 40-50 supply to deal with any 3gate pressure. Make sure to sac an overlord at 5:30 as well, just to make sure of what's going on.
But making a bunch of queens, is horrible. It's great if the opponent is 1 basing and you can defend the choke with transfused spines, otherwise, no.
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Whats the counter to thors?
Do i HAVE TO PLAY banes or infesters in zvt
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On February 06 2012 22:32 tpmraven wrote:
Whats the counter to thors?
Do i HAVE TO PLAY banes or infesters in zvt
Thors in small numbers are countered by mutas. In larger numbers, I guess broodlords. Roaches are what you want to deal with them for the most part.
You don't HAVE to use banes of infestors in ZvT, but without them your going to struggle big time against someone who uses marines as a staple to his army. Thats our method of dealing with marines, through the damage of banelings or fungal.
Edit: If your upgrades are alot faster than the Terran then it's possible to play ZvT without them as at that point lings can trade well with marines, so like I said, you dont HAVE to, but you really should.
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On February 06 2012 22:32 tpmraven wrote:
Whats the counter to thors?
Do i HAVE TO PLAY banes or infesters in zvt
Thors in high numbers can only be countered by broodlords in equal or higher numbers. Thors in medium to small numbers roaches and lings will do and in smaller numbers up to five mutas with magic box with sufficient numbers might do it.
Yes you have to play either banelings or infestors in ZvT theres no other way to kill marines.
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On February 06 2012 08:52 Tribuno wrote:
vs terran standard reactor hellion opening what's the timing for CC to be "operative" in his natural? if you don't see CC at the right timing and u are not able to scout (u don't have an overlord in position or the scout is denied by marines) what do u assume? i think there are many possibilities and in some cases its hard to know exactly.. banshee, hellion marauder, 2 facorty reactor hellion, 2-3 tank marine, hellion drop.. some tips about it?
someone can help me?
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On February 06 2012 22:53 Tribuno wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2012 08:52 Tribuno wrote:
vs terran standard reactor hellion opening what's the timing for CC to be "operative" in his natural? if you don't see CC at the right timing and u are not able to scout (u don't have an overlord in position or the scout is denied by marines) what do u assume? i think there are many possibilities and in some cases its hard to know exactly.. banshee, hellion marauder, 2 facorty reactor hellion, 2-3 tank marine, hellion drop.. some tips about it? someone can help me?
I personally opt for the sheth/DRG/Blade opening
Where you get 4-7 roaches off two bases, and poke the terran, owning rines/helions + allowing you to see what they are doing.
15/16 hatch
16/17pool
18gas/lord (2-3 drones, depending on your tech path)
2 queens + 2-3 pairs of lings
28 warren
2-3 OL
4-7 roaches (have 2 for defense, you are NOT going to sac them, just poke)
2 OL during your poke/drone cycle,
ect ect ect
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On February 06 2012 22:53 Tribuno wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2012 08:52 Tribuno wrote:
vs terran standard reactor hellion opening what's the timing for CC to be "operative" in his natural? if you don't see CC at the right timing and u are not able to scout (u don't have an overlord in position or the scout is denied by marines) what do u assume? i think there are many possibilities and in some cases its hard to know exactly.. banshee, hellion marauder, 2 facorty reactor hellion, 2-3 tank marine, hellion drop.. some tips about it? someone can help me?
It should really be down by 7-8 mins. Ideally you'll want to sack an overlord before the 6min mark to confirm your suspicions on what the Terran is doing, as that will give you adequate time to react/ pump units plop down spores ect.
If I see 1 base play I assume cloaked banshee, however I still pump lings, as I usually have decent saturation at this point.
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ok thanks for the suggestion, i like the DRG opening i'll try it and i ll sack an overlord at 6 min. I think with these 2 things i can have a good idea to what it happen!
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How does zerg kill a PF without losing a huge amount of units? I am talking one with like 4-5 turrets too. I am having issues against terrans that slow push to the edge of your creep, siege up and force lings to run through the gauntlet. I will beat the push, but he has expanded to another base with a new PF behind it and I dont have enough to kill it. I also dont have enough to push towards his main because of a low-ground wall with depots and a bunker.
Basically, how does zerg beat a terran that is patient and defends well and is able to drop you whenever you are away from a base. I can hold off every push no problem, but I am never able to push out and grab another base without becoming even more vulnerable to drops. Spines dont kill marines with some upgrades, they just delay.
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ZvZ
I've been feeling lately that Zvz just feels like it's a race to muta's. Is there anyway to win a game where your opp goes muta's and you don't? How do you get a third up?
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On February 07 2012 08:50 Faulteh wrote:
ZvZ
I've been feeling lately that Zvz just feels like it's a race to muta's. Is there anyway to win a game where your opp goes muta's and you don't? How do you get a third up?
I dunno if this applies in every ZvZ, but what I usually do is just roach/hydra. When I see he has mutas, I try and see if he gets a 3rd kind of quickly afterwards. If he does, I just make a lot of roaches and hydras and attack shortly after it finishes (since its likely he will drone to saturate it). Generally speaking, it wins.
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On February 07 2012 08:50 Faulteh wrote:
ZvZ
I've been feeling lately that Zvz just feels like it's a race to muta's. Is there anyway to win a game where your opp goes muta's and you don't? How do you get a third up?
im no way pro. but i LOVE IT when the opponent Z rushes mutas.
protip: make more queens. ive had 5-6 queens hold off like 16 muta via transfuse and etc.
if they're smart, they'll pull back.. you want mutas eventually, but dont rush them.
then with them investing so much into mutas. you can spend all that on ling/roach and get a bigger ground army. and mutas dont kill lings fast enough to stop them from ruining his base.
when it comes to muta v muta battles, bring overlords to tank up the splash, and get overlord speed. i think its near needed in ZvZ.
just my 2, lower league cents. :x
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On February 07 2012 08:53 TheRabidDeer wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2012 08:50 Faulteh wrote:
ZvZ
I've been feeling lately that Zvz just feels like it's a race to muta's. Is there anyway to win a game where your opp goes muta's and you don't? How do you get a third up? I dunno if this applies in every ZvZ, but what I usually do is just roach/hydra. When I see he has mutas, I try and see if he gets a 3rd kind of quickly afterwards. If he does, I just make a lot of roaches and hydras and attack shortly after it finishes (since its likely he will drone to saturate it). Generally speaking, it wins.
In my experience, a muta player can pretty easily get quite a few lings out (and +1 melee is cheap) + spines at their nat.
So even if you deny the initial third, they'll be able to max on muta/ling/bane and if they target hydra's with banes, you're pretty screwed.
I think the answer is infestors, maybe I just need to work on my control.
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On February 07 2012 10:05 Faulteh wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2012 08:53 TheRabidDeer wrote:On February 07 2012 08:50 Faulteh wrote:
ZvZ
I've been feeling lately that Zvz just feels like it's a race to muta's. Is there anyway to win a game where your opp goes muta's and you don't? How do you get a third up? I dunno if this applies in every ZvZ, but what I usually do is just roach/hydra. When I see he has mutas, I try and see if he gets a 3rd kind of quickly afterwards. If he does, I just make a lot of roaches and hydras and attack shortly after it finishes (since its likely he will drone to saturate it). Generally speaking, it wins. In my experience, a muta player can pretty easily get quite a few lings out (and +1 melee is cheap) + spines at their nat. So even if you deny the initial third, they'll be able to max on muta/ling/bane and if they target hydra's with banes, you're pretty screwed. I think the answer is infestors, maybe I just need to work on my control.
+1 or +2 attack makes hydra/roach waaaaaay more powerful. You still have to be leery of banes, but you should be able to do a ton of damage though. Generally I just win outright, but they might not be doing it right.
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As a bronze Zerg player what should be my focus for improvement? I'm decent with my larva but struggle with defending expansions, scouting + knowing what the scouted buildings mean (like what build the opponent is using) and fending off early pushes. There have been matches where I feel I have map control, expand, then the enemy has a huge army off of 1 base that they wipe me with.
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+1 or +2 attack makes hydra/roach waaaaaay more powerful. You still have to be leery of banes, but you should be able to do a ton of damage though. Generally I just win outright, but they might not be doing it right.
What rank are you? I'm only high diamond/playing low masters.
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Belial88:
blah blah blah blah blah blah
I know you think you're really good because you're low master and stuff, but as a protoss player (1250 pts at the moment), I find 11 pool to be incredibly strong in many ways compared to 14 pool.
LETS BEGIN!
First off, like it's already been said plenty of times, 11 pool is far stronger against many different kinds of cheeses. Most of them are self-explanatory, but many may not be so well known to you guys. For example, chronoboosting out two zealots and a stalker and making a bunch of pylons around the zerg's hatchery to funnel zerglings and make cannons. This can get scouted far quicker and be shut down at its roots with fast enough zerglings. A 14 pool player will die pretty often if they don't scout properly with a drone of overlord (see: stephano, ret, etc).
Secondly, against a forge expand, if the protoss did not go 12 forge (which many do not, especially in anticipation for nexus first before scouting your early pool), you will force them to wall off with two more gateways before making a nexus. Economic advantage obtained. Obviously something you cannot do with 14 pool.
Of course, 14 pool has its place. Given proper game sense and scouting it is definitely the more solid way to open, but anyone mid master and lower will surely have slightly more prosperous midgames if they open 11 pool.
Please, keep spreading your advice on the forums, you post a lot. Please, don't act like you know everything when you obviously don't. Just because there are not that many people around here to correct you does not mean that you can state your opinion as if it is law.
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On February 07 2012 10:23 Faulteh wrote:Show nested quote +
+1 or +2 attack makes hydra/roach waaaaaay more powerful. You still have to be leery of banes, but you should be able to do a ton of damage though. Generally I just win outright, but they might not be doing it right.
What rank are you? I'm only high diamond/playing low masters.
Also high diamond, playing mostly masters. If the opponent neglects +1 armor on the lings, you can outright win pretty often when they go muta. Even if you just go deny the 3rd thats enough damage that you can pull back and take your own 3rd and win in a longer game.
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On February 07 2012 08:47 TheRabidDeer wrote:
How does zerg kill a PF without losing a huge amount of units? I am talking one with like 4-5 turrets too. I am having issues against terrans that slow push to the edge of your creep, siege up and force lings to run through the gauntlet. I will beat the push, but he has expanded to another base with a new PF behind it and I dont have enough to kill it. I also dont have enough to push towards his main because of a low-ground wall with depots and a bunker.
Basically, how does zerg beat a terran that is patient and defends well and is able to drop you whenever you are away from a base. I can hold off every push no problem, but I am never able to push out and grab another base without becoming even more vulnerable to drops. Spines dont kill marines with some upgrades, they just delay.
If the PF's cannon is aimed at your units, 24 banelings. If it's looking away, 19 banelings. So basically make 30 and go kill the fucker, as that will allow you to take out the scvs aswell.
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On February 07 2012 13:03 Host- wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2012 08:47 TheRabidDeer wrote:
How does zerg kill a PF without losing a huge amount of units? I am talking one with like 4-5 turrets too. I am having issues against terrans that slow push to the edge of your creep, siege up and force lings to run through the gauntlet. I will beat the push, but he has expanded to another base with a new PF behind it and I dont have enough to kill it. I also dont have enough to push towards his main because of a low-ground wall with depots and a bunker.
Basically, how does zerg beat a terran that is patient and defends well and is able to drop you whenever you are away from a base. I can hold off every push no problem, but I am never able to push out and grab another base without becoming even more vulnerable to drops. Spines dont kill marines with some upgrades, they just delay. If the PF's cannon is aimed at your units, 24 banelings. If it's looking away, 19 banelings. So basically make 30 and go kill the fucker, as that will allow you to take out the scvs aswell.
throwing away 1200/600 in army is the best answer for that situation? Is that really a good idea given modern terran playstyles?
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EPT
