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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. |
On February 03 2012 23:40 Maggost wrote:
Hello guys, i am strugling on my overlord positioning in the whole map, i am having the bad habit to put all my overlords in my base. I would like to know if someone have a map with possible positions for my overlords (with all the races). Because i cant scout or reac propperly against drops.
Since we make a ton of overlords anyway, I LOVE sending one to each base near his main, and once I get lair I'll drop creep at all the bases around his main/natural so I not only know when and where he's expanding, but the creep will delay it for a minute or two. This is one of the best ways to watch when he expands.
Also, GET OVERLORD SPEED!
As for drops, anywhere on high ground, between two chunks of land (or open space), or outside his main base, and outside your bases along the edges of the map are the best places to scout for drops. The important thing to note is to constantly watch your mini-map for those little dots coming near your base. If you pay attention to it, he will never drop a soul.
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On February 04 2012 16:31 KimJongChill wrote:
So I just played a game where I had 3 bases and 65 drones/6 gas against a 2 base toss with 49 probes. Is it normal that my three base roach/hydra loses so badly to 2 base +2 blink stalker with ~6 sentries? The engagements weren't even close at all -.-
Hmm a replay would really help for this as you appear to have had the ideal comp to deal with it. 3 Base roach hydra should really beat his +2 blink stalker providing you macro'd well. In a perfect world you would be maxed by the time it hit (12:30 I think)
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I played in a tournament earlier today and it ended rather badly for me. I was playing against a toss who planted a pylon on my natural hatch spot so I either had to kill the pylon to expand or expand to another location. The toss player then proceeded to 1 base all in. He crushed me easily. The second can was basically the same result even though I help off the initial push he re-massed (heavy stalker, mixed gateway) and pushed. He never expanded. If I see a protoss the my natural is it worth the time to break the pylos with drones or should I wait for lings to do it? I've tried with drones and with lings. Lings tend to work beater from my experience but I would like to know another people's opinions on how to deal with this. Also should I expand somewhere else and take my natural as a 3rd?
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I am in Masters league and I have some what trouble dying to timing attacks. Its usually because I over drone and make units too late. Can you tell me when to stop droning and start producing units for popular timing attacks by protoss/terran?
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On February 05 2012 09:52 Igotpwned wrote:
I am in Masters league and I have some what trouble dying to timing attacks. Its usually because I over drone and make units too late. Can you tell me when to stop droning and start producing units for popular timing attacks by protoss/terran?
No I can't. But, you have to rely on scouting information. Lings in his nat to tell you when he's expo'd. Overlords in his base to tell you what might be coming. Basically you have to play less greedy, or get alot better at scouting. This was one of the big crutches I faced at master level, and once you get over it you'll be a very solid player.
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On February 05 2012 09:52 Igotpwned wrote:
I am in Masters league and I have some what trouble dying to timing attacks. Its usually because I over drone and make units too late. Can you tell me when to stop droning and start producing units for popular timing attacks by protoss/terran?
zvp is pretty straightforward, build units at...
5:50 vs gateway-cyber opening to hold a potential 4-gate.
8:00 vs forge FE opening to hold a potential 6-7 gate.
If he has 2 early gas on his expansion, you can drone a bit more. If you send in an OL at ~7:30 and see him building multiple gateways, you can drone until he gateways finishes (65s build time). If you see any other building than pylon/gateway, you can drone a little longer.
zvt has many more variations and its not easy to give exact answers, you can't be both 100% safe vs all-ins and on equal footing vs an economic bomber style 3 CC.
If he opens hellions, his expand CC should be floating at ~7:00 (have an ol at his expo). If not suspect something fishy.
If he opens 1 rax, you can often spot him building his tech lab. Stim takes 2:50 to research and most terran will wait for stim before they move out. There is a tank+marine with combatshield timing to watch out for though.
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I have a quick question. Against a FFE protoss, what should I expect from 2 gas play? a quick 3rd gas? and a quick all-4 gases? I usually sacrifice my overlords for further intel but knowing this info will further help me even more.
2 gas = 6 gate +1/7 gate 8:30 all-in. Make 100% units at 8:00/~65 supply, if you made a lair, or an upgrade, cancel immediately (if you went lair against a 7 gate, you will lose going fast third, and even if you get it up, you wont have any of the lairtech done by the time you hold/die to the push. in short, tech that hard, you will lose). It's .0001% possible he's going fast third off of 2 units, in which case you'll autowin with your mass roach/ling army anyways.
3 gas = anything, generally 1 gate stargate 4 gate or 1 gate robo 4 gate. Could also be DTs. Really need to sac an overlord to see if there is a high gateway count (pressure with more upgrades or sentries) or not (tech started, harass based opening).
4 gas = extremely heavy sentry pressure (obvious by mass sentries in base around 8:30), could be 7 gate blink stalkers all-in (see lots of stalkers, mass gates in base), usually double stargate (obvious by an empty base). If the 2 gas at natural taken super fast, it's almost always double stargate.
Remember, he could be opening anything, and just take the 2 extra gas around 10 minute as his econ built up, so that doesnt mean much. But these gases, I mean like ~5-7:00 gas, as in he's opening these gases. But the red flags are no gas at natural, double gas quickly at natural, mass gates in his base, empty base. That's what you are looking for, what do the gases mean given if the base is either empty or full. A double stargate adds on zero gateways, while a 7gate with mass gates takes all gas. You wont see all 7 gates, but you should see at least 4 of them, ie his base will look crowded, not empty.
If you can check if the forge is spinning, that's a huge bonus too. Usually you don't want to make that many lings at the start, but making 5 lings at the 9:00 mark and running up to see a spinning, or not spinning, forge, can be that extra bit of information you need to know everything.
About overlord spread:
I definitely think the upgrade is as important as ling speed, but to play devils advocate here.... Nestea actually never gets overlord speed.
What he does, is rally every single overlord egg he makes, to spread his overlords. A good way into the game, they end up spread all over perfectly, wala.
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I am in Masters league and I have some what trouble dying to timing attacks. Its usually because I over drone and make units too late. Can you tell me when to stop droning and start producing units for popular timing attacks by protoss/terran?
vs FFE:
1. No gas at natural, ie 6 gate +1/7gate = stop at 8:00/65 supply, 100% units to hold all-in.
Based on if Toss has more gas taken, or opened tech like SG/DT, you just delay the units a little more. Something like 5 gate robo pressure, you will need to still cut 100% droning at 8:00, but it just means you can add a few more drones, maybe get lair and a third gas, whereas against a hardcore 7 gate, you need to 100% stop droning or die.
vs 1/3 gate sentry expand while you take a fast third
You really want to make 100% units 38-45 supply, completely depending on map size and if it's 1/3 gate expand and if he's reinforcing with gateways or not. I think 1 gate expand means the push is earlier, and smaller maps means cut a bit earlier. I take the third and roach warren right about 35ish supply, drone up to about 40, and save larva/money while that roach warren is making.
Against Terran you just need to start making units around 50-60 supply if they expanded. A dropship can hurt you if you drone up to 60, but with a ramp, you should be safe to 60 supply against a terran who expanded. 1 base pushes with gas hit after 40 supply (right about when you sac overlord, at 5:30). Make sure T took gas or expanded, as a 7 rax all-in hits around 30 supply, gotta rule that out before proceeding (stop it with a few spines, get banes, if you didnt open speed).
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What do you guys think about Zenios ZvP style? "rushing" hydras to defend ANY toss can throw at him in the mid game and then goes in to mutas. Roachless 
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On February 05 2012 17:11 nicke10 wrote:What do you guys think about Zenios ZvP style? "rushing" hydras to defend ANY toss can throw at him in the mid game and then goes in to mutas. Roachless
I don't like it at all. I've not experimented with it but it just appears to be really wierd and gimmicky and I don't see how you can get enough hydras out to deal with a 6 gate. I mean obviously it works for him but I prefer to stick to what works for me, which is maxing out really quick and then going into hive tech.
Also each time I've seen it used theres not been a fast 3rd which is think is retarded.
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Played a ZvT on cross Tal'Darim. I opened hatch first, got away with it, three queens, pumping drones, his hellions come two spines down zero damage taken. I try to run lings past his hellion but he keeps denying them so Iahve no idea whats going on inside his base. It's cross so my overlords havn't made their way yet. Lair finishes and my spire goes down, I see 14+ hellions just melting my spines and rolling it killing all but leaving 10 drones, my mutas and some roaches pop and clean up but ive already lost.
TL;DR How do you scout mass hellion when they deny all kind of scouting.
On February 05 2012 17:11 nicke10 wrote:What do you guys think about Zenios ZvP style? "rushing" hydras to defend ANY toss can throw at him in the mid game and then goes in to mutas. Roachless
Well the plan is to get muta for Zenio anyways so I fail to realize why he is going hydras when he just masses lings anyways and stops hydra production at like 7 and then saves up gas. Seems like a shitty investment to me.
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On February 05 2012 21:12 Olsson wrote:Played a ZvT on cross Tal'Darim. I opened hatch first, got away with it, three queens, pumping drones, his hellions come two spines down zero damage taken. I try to run lings past his hellion but he keeps denying them so Iahve no idea whats going on inside his base. It's cross so my overlords havn't made their way yet. Lair finishes and my spire goes down, I see 14+ hellions just melting my spines and rolling it killing all but leaving 10 drones, my mutas and some roaches pop and clean up but ive already lost. TL;DR How do you scout mass hellion when they deny all kind of scouting. Show nested quote +On February 05 2012 17:11 nicke10 wrote:What do you guys think about Zenios ZvP style? "rushing" hydras to defend ANY toss can throw at him in the mid game and then goes in to mutas. Roachless Well the plan is to get muta for Zenio anyways so I fail to realize why he is going hydras when he just masses lings anyways and stops hydra production at like 7 and then saves up gas. Seems like a shitty investment to me.
You should be sending in an overlord at 5-6 min ish, especially if you scout no expo. If he's massing hellions it's unlikely that he'll have a lot of marines so if you see like 2 marines and nothing else other than a reactred factory with your overlord then you should be able to assume a fuck load of hellions are coming your way.
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On February 05 2012 17:11 nicke10 wrote:What do you guys think about Zenios ZvP style? "rushing" hydras to defend ANY toss can throw at him in the mid game and then goes in to mutas. Roachless
I've been experimenting with it myself (Mid Masters player) and I have to agree, it is kind of gimmicky. It only really works in a few situations, like the Blink stalker timing that Zenio faced. Versus any kind of 6-7 gate timing, your opponent will just make a lot of zealots and then you basically lose because you wont have enough, or sometimes any hydras, depending on how early you get your lair.
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On February 05 2012 22:48 Host- wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2012 21:12 Olsson wrote:Played a ZvT on cross Tal'Darim. I opened hatch first, got away with it, three queens, pumping drones, his hellions come two spines down zero damage taken. I try to run lings past his hellion but he keeps denying them so Iahve no idea whats going on inside his base. It's cross so my overlords havn't made their way yet. Lair finishes and my spire goes down, I see 14+ hellions just melting my spines and rolling it killing all but leaving 10 drones, my mutas and some roaches pop and clean up but ive already lost. TL;DR How do you scout mass hellion when they deny all kind of scouting. On February 05 2012 17:11 nicke10 wrote:What do you guys think about Zenios ZvP style? "rushing" hydras to defend ANY toss can throw at him in the mid game and then goes in to mutas. Roachless Well the plan is to get muta for Zenio anyways so I fail to realize why he is going hydras when he just masses lings anyways and stops hydra production at like 7 and then saves up gas. Seems like a shitty investment to me. You should be sending in an overlord at 5-6 min ish, especially if you scout no expo. If he's massing hellions it's unlikely that he'll have a lot of marines so if you see like 2 marines and nothing else other than a reactred factory with your overlord then you should be able to assume a fuck load of hellions are coming your way.
"It's cross so my overlords havn't made their way yet."
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On February 06 2012 01:36 Olsson wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2012 22:48 Host- wrote:On February 05 2012 21:12 Olsson wrote:Played a ZvT on cross Tal'Darim. I opened hatch first, got away with it, three queens, pumping drones, his hellions come two spines down zero damage taken. I try to run lings past his hellion but he keeps denying them so Iahve no idea whats going on inside his base. It's cross so my overlords havn't made their way yet. Lair finishes and my spire goes down, I see 14+ hellions just melting my spines and rolling it killing all but leaving 10 drones, my mutas and some roaches pop and clean up but ive already lost. TL;DR How do you scout mass hellion when they deny all kind of scouting. On February 05 2012 17:11 nicke10 wrote:What do you guys think about Zenios ZvP style? "rushing" hydras to defend ANY toss can throw at him in the mid game and then goes in to mutas. Roachless Well the plan is to get muta for Zenio anyways so I fail to realize why he is going hydras when he just masses lings anyways and stops hydra production at like 7 and then saves up gas. Seems like a shitty investment to me. You should be sending in an overlord at 5-6 min ish, especially if you scout no expo. If he's massing hellions it's unlikely that he'll have a lot of marines so if you see like 2 marines and nothing else other than a reactred factory with your overlord then you should be able to assume a fuck load of hellions are coming your way. "It's cross so my overlords havn't made their way yet."
Well what sort of path are you sending them on then? and even if your completely skirting the mini map it should still be there in time to see that he's massing hellions.
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On February 06 2012 01:41 Host- wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2012 01:36 Olsson wrote:On February 05 2012 22:48 Host- wrote:On February 05 2012 21:12 Olsson wrote:Played a ZvT on cross Tal'Darim. I opened hatch first, got away with it, three queens, pumping drones, his hellions come two spines down zero damage taken. I try to run lings past his hellion but he keeps denying them so Iahve no idea whats going on inside his base. It's cross so my overlords havn't made their way yet. Lair finishes and my spire goes down, I see 14+ hellions just melting my spines and rolling it killing all but leaving 10 drones, my mutas and some roaches pop and clean up but ive already lost. TL;DR How do you scout mass hellion when they deny all kind of scouting. On February 05 2012 17:11 nicke10 wrote:What do you guys think about Zenios ZvP style? "rushing" hydras to defend ANY toss can throw at him in the mid game and then goes in to mutas. Roachless Well the plan is to get muta for Zenio anyways so I fail to realize why he is going hydras when he just masses lings anyways and stops hydra production at like 7 and then saves up gas. Seems like a shitty investment to me. You should be sending in an overlord at 5-6 min ish, especially if you scout no expo. If he's massing hellions it's unlikely that he'll have a lot of marines so if you see like 2 marines and nothing else other than a reactred factory with your overlord then you should be able to assume a fuck load of hellions are coming your way. "It's cross so my overlords havn't made their way yet." Well what sort of path are you sending them on then? and even if your completely skirting the mini map it should still be there in time to see that he's massing hellions.
I send the first one directly towards the top and then I keep my second one to the expansion and when my hatch completes it send it south and then towards the right. I need to stay close to the sides to prevent marines from killing them. When I scout the position I send both my overlords towards that position. But they didn't get there before the mass hellions attacked.
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Whats the best way to beat a FFE into 6-gate blink stalker push as Zerg?
I'm in Plat and it is literally the only build that I can't beat. I've faced it three times now, and I've tried something different each time, but I'm stumped. First time I tried to do my standard upgraded Roach timing attack, burrow, speed, +1, which usually hits at around 11 to 12 minutes or so in-game. Second game I tried ling/muta, but even with putting up spines to delay for mutas I lost. Third game I tried ling/hydra, but he just warped in a round of zealots and micro'ed my army to death.
How do I engage a blink stalker army? What should I have at around 11 minutes or so? Should I go for a third or punish with a timing before warpgates finish?
Edit:
I send the first one directly towards the top and then I keep my second one to the expansion and when my hatch completes it send it south and then towards the right. I need to stay close to the sides to prevent marines from killing them. When I scout the position I send both my overlords towards that position. But they didn't get there before the mass hellions attacked.
What I like to do is if my first overlord doesn't find the enemy base, I immediately send him to the center, then once I find the base, I park my first overlord in a little corner of airspace in the back of his base. For example, on Taldarim I would put my overlord in the airspace between his main base and the third, with rocks. Then once my Lair finishes I immediately morph my overlord into an overseer and scout his base. This scout timing should be at around the 9 to 10 minute mark, NO LATER THAN 10:30!!! It's one of the most important timings in my play, I find.
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High silver player here. I've been climbing my division, but I can't seem to beat protoss. I've been using either a 14 gas 14 pool speedling/muta build or a mass hydra build and neither seem to be clicking for me. Any ZvP build suggestions?
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FUCK PROTOSS. Goddam three pylons blocking off my ramp and cannons behind. I spot the cannons early, pull workers and try the drone stack thing and it kills the pylon just in time for everything to die to cannons. Seriously a shit move. I even 12 pooled on Shakuras, thinking it was the safe way to go.
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On February 06 2012 04:54 Falcon-sw wrote:
FUCK PROTOSS. Goddam three pylons blocking off my ramp and cannons behind. I spot the cannons early, pull workers and try the drone stack thing and it kills the pylon just in time for everything to die to cannons. Seriously a shit move. I even 12 pooled on Shakuras, thinking it was the safe way to go.
That is why I always have a drone follow the probe so I can stop that from happening. If you just let the probe wonder around doing whatever he wants he can pylon wall you any time. That drone stack trick also doesn't work on some maps I believe from experience or you have to click on further minerals maybe idk but yeah just try to put a drone on hold position at ramp once you see he's going to try for it.
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EPT
