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I find 11 overpool to be so much more cheese-proof than 14 pool in zvp. I know my friend Belial will strongly disagree xd.
Also 11 overpool allows me to clear up the natural, chase the probe.(I make 4 zerlings instead of 2, and a queen with an extractor trick, then Ovie, then hatch). Also I would take my third very fast as well(like 21 supply.
14 pool just feels akward to me. Feels like their probe will delay it forever and plant nexus before me. With an 11 overpool it just never happens unless they nexus first. Plus earlier lings scare toss oftentimes and make him extra cautious with the wall.
Another benefit that I find is that I wouldn't need an Ovie over my ramp. I could just send him to scout. And like Darkforce said, it is a good idea to chase the probe with a drone. And with the 11 op it just seems too hard for toss to do it, especially if they don't find you immediately.
And the 4 Zerglings that I get allow me a lot of map control like watching the ramp, looking for probe and the best thing is patrolling one ling around the third to prevent shenanigans.
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On February 06 2012 04:51 RdoubleU wrote:
High silver player here. I've been climbing my division, but I can't seem to beat protoss. I've been using either a 14 gas 14 pool speedling/muta build or a mass hydra build and neither seem to be clicking for me. Any ZvP build suggestions?
I'm gold so take the following with a pinch of salt, but I found basing my army mainly around roaches worked well on the basis that they're cheap in gas so you can get really good upgrades for them, and once you have those unless he goes mass immortals they'll do ok against most things, then adding in either hydras/corruptors/mutas depending on what you scout works well. It makes you far more mobile as well, letting you deny thirds and stuff in a way that you can't really do with hydras unless you're willing to commit to a major engagement.
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On February 06 2012 02:39 Thienan567 wrote:
What I like to do is if my first overlord doesn't find the enemy base, I immediately send him to the center, then once I find the base, I park my first overlord in a little corner of airspace in the back of his base. For example, on Taldarim I would put my overlord in the airspace between his main base and the third, with rocks. Then once my Lair finishes I immediately morph my overlord into an overseer and scout his base. This scout timing should be at around the 9 to 10 minute mark, NO LATER THAN 10:30!!! It's one of the most important timings in my play, I find.
I didnt have overlords in position AGAIN IT WAS CROSS MAP and the spire had built for like 20 seconds when he was attacking me so the overseer wouldnt have gotten the scout nor the time for me to react anyways.
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On February 06 2012 05:32 MegaDancer wrote:
I find 11 overpool to be so much more cheese-proof than 14 pool in zvp. I know my friend Belial will strongly disagree xd.
Also 11 overpool allows me to clear up the natural, chase the probe.(I make 4 zerlings instead of 2, and a queen with an extractor trick, then Ovie, then hatch). Also I would take my third very fast as well(like 21 supply.
14 pool just feels akward to me. Feels like their probe will delay it forever and plant nexus before me. With an 11 overpool it just never happens unless they nexus first. Plus earlier lings scare toss oftentimes and make him extra cautious with the wall.
Another benefit that I find is that I wouldn't need an Ovie over my ramp. I could just send him to scout. And like Darkforce said, it is a good idea to chase the probe with a drone. And with the 11 op it just seems too hard for toss to do it, especially if they don't find you immediately.
And the 4 Zerglings that I get allow me a lot of map control like watching the ramp, looking for probe and the best thing is patrolling one ling around the third to prevent shenanigans.
The problem with the 11 overpool build is its really really hard to stop a 4 gate. If your protoss opponent see's you are 11 pooling and isn't forge FE'ing he can just 4 gate you and will most likely win unless he fucks up bad.
11 pool is really quiet bad imo and should never be used as a standard build but thats just my opinion on it which is obviously that an opinion not a fact  .
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On February 06 2012 06:04 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2012 05:32 MegaDancer wrote:
I find 11 overpool to be so much more cheese-proof than 14 pool in zvp. I know my friend Belial will strongly disagree xd.
Also 11 overpool allows me to clear up the natural, chase the probe.(I make 4 zerlings instead of 2, and a queen with an extractor trick, then Ovie, then hatch). Also I would take my third very fast as well(like 21 supply.
14 pool just feels akward to me. Feels like their probe will delay it forever and plant nexus before me. With an 11 overpool it just never happens unless they nexus first. Plus earlier lings scare toss oftentimes and make him extra cautious with the wall.
Another benefit that I find is that I wouldn't need an Ovie over my ramp. I could just send him to scout. And like Darkforce said, it is a good idea to chase the probe with a drone. And with the 11 op it just seems too hard for toss to do it, especially if they don't find you immediately.
And the 4 Zerglings that I get allow me a lot of map control like watching the ramp, looking for probe and the best thing is patrolling one ling around the third to prevent shenanigans. The problem with the 11 overpool build is its really really hard to stop a 4 gate. If your protoss opponent see's you are 11 pooling and isn't forge FE'ing he can just 4 gate you and will most likely win unless he fucks up bad. 11 pool is really quiet bad imo and should never be used as a standard build but thats just my opinion on it which is obviously that an opinion not a fact .
Why is it so hard to stop 4gate?
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Well I generally use 11 pool on the maps where toss will likely ffe. And as far as 4 gate I feel like it depends on when you take your gas. It seems like if you take it around 15 supply, you will have speed on time to defend any kind of 4 gate. I might be wrong but it seems like I haven't lost to a 4 gate forever, even when I play on kr server(diamond there, mid master here) and I have 250 ms delay and they seem to 4 gate more. I would say way more.(almost none on NA)
And dear Blade, I'm sorry to mix you up with Darkforce, good sir. XD
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![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/HKAKT.jpg)
A picture tells a thousand words.
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On February 06 2012 06:20 ilju wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2012 06:04 blade55555 wrote:On February 06 2012 05:32 MegaDancer wrote:
I find 11 overpool to be so much more cheese-proof than 14 pool in zvp. I know my friend Belial will strongly disagree xd.
Also 11 overpool allows me to clear up the natural, chase the probe.(I make 4 zerlings instead of 2, and a queen with an extractor trick, then Ovie, then hatch). Also I would take my third very fast as well(like 21 supply.
14 pool just feels akward to me. Feels like their probe will delay it forever and plant nexus before me. With an 11 overpool it just never happens unless they nexus first. Plus earlier lings scare toss oftentimes and make him extra cautious with the wall.
Another benefit that I find is that I wouldn't need an Ovie over my ramp. I could just send him to scout. And like Darkforce said, it is a good idea to chase the probe with a drone. And with the 11 op it just seems too hard for toss to do it, especially if they don't find you immediately.
And the 4 Zerglings that I get allow me a lot of map control like watching the ramp, looking for probe and the best thing is patrolling one ling around the third to prevent shenanigans. The problem with the 11 overpool build is its really really hard to stop a 4 gate. If your protoss opponent see's you are 11 pooling and isn't forge FE'ing he can just 4 gate you and will most likely win unless he fucks up bad. 11 pool is really quiet bad imo and should never be used as a standard build but thats just my opinion on it which is obviously that an opinion not a fact . Why is it so hard to stop 4gate?
Well this is more going by what my protoss friend time said awhile back. He used to play vs a zerg who only 11 pooled so he 4 gated him and won the 5 games in a row they played because ling speed is so delayed. But I will be honest I am not sure if you get roaches out if you can or can't hold it but I can not see you surviving with just lings since speed is so delayed due to the 11 pool 16 hatch.
On February 06 2012 06:38 MegaDancer wrote:
Well I generally use 11 pool on the maps where toss will likely ffe. And as far as 4 gate I feel like it depends on when you take your gas. It seems like if you take it around 15 supply, you will have speed on time to defend any kind of 4 gate. I might be wrong but it seems like I haven't lost to a 4 gate forever, even when I play on kr server(diamond there, mid master here) and I have 250 ms delay and they seem to 4 gate more. I would say way more.(almost none on NA)
And dear Blade, I'm sorry to mix you up with Darkforce, good sir. XD
I forgives you :D. I am just going by what my protoss friends said awhile back that he would 4 gate 11 pool zergs because they couldn't hold it due to ling speed being so late (this is the 11 pool - 16 hatch which I am assuming you do the same?).
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On February 04 2012 17:15 Host- wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2012 16:31 KimJongChill wrote:
So I just played a game where I had 3 bases and 65 drones/6 gas against a 2 base toss with 49 probes. Is it normal that my three base roach/hydra loses so badly to 2 base +2 blink stalker with ~6 sentries? The engagements weren't even close at all -.- Hmm a replay would really help for this as you appear to have had the ideal comp to deal with it. 3 Base roach hydra should really beat his +2 blink stalker providing you macro'd well. In a perfect world you would be maxed by the time it hit (12:30 I think)
Humm, well the game started out real weird I tried out a hatch first and got cannon rushed but held it off, so everything was thrown off a lot haha. I think my macro was a bit bad though.
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An 11 overpool will actually lose everytime to a ramp block cannon rush. The lings will only be half done when the cannon finishes, and 6 lings cannot kill a pylon where only 2 can hit it at a time, before the cannon kills them.
It is in no way more cheeseproof than 14 pool. If anything, it's actually less cheeseproof, as 4 gate will hit you and you'll have less drones to hold it off and you'll simply have a harder time dealing with it on maps with open naturals where you can't use spines (it's not impossible to hold off though, as to your friend, I have no idea what's going on there, but you should still be able to hold a 4 gate).
As I've said many times before, you have to go 10 pool or earlier to stop a cannon rush with lings. Otherwise, you need to patrol the ramp with a drone, and another drone following each scouting probe. A 13 forge/17 block will kill any pool 11 or up if they don't use drone micro - if they go 10/10 cannon rush or maybe 9/12, it means even 10 pool will lose. In short, you can never use lings to stop a cannon rush.
If you see a gateway opening, just get gas. As long as it's before 20ish, you should have speed in time for a 4 gate.
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if i play 11 overpool on metalopolis i would build my gas around 15 supply, hatch around 19, after my lings are out. But generally i would go 14 14 on a map like that. 11 overpool seems to be the best on the map like shakuras, taldarim, entombed valley or antiga. it allows me super quick gasless 3 base into super greedy play(just delay your second queen a bit) I saw Stephano do super similar build on Antiga, I believe against Grubby.
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I would have to disgagree with you, Belial. 11 overpool helped me beat a tonne of cheesers. I play on korean server as well and every toss wouldnt mind to triple pylon-block you. I dont think i ever lost to it after i switched to 11 op.
There are so many scenarios.
First of all, if toss doesnt find you immediately, it is super stupid to try to do that as your pool will be almost done.
Second, you can still break the pylon with 3 or 4 workers(i dont like to rely on the drone drill) and then ur lings are out to help. even if he reinfoces the wall, i seem to win if i execute it with no mistakes.
third i could still follow the probe with the drone, since i dont drone scout when i 11 overpool(relying on ovies, depends on a map)
Also 11 Overpool allows me 3 quick hatches. Seems like much faster than 14 pool. I m not sayin 14 pool is worse, I just feel 11op could be a great standard as well.
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I really don't see how an 11 pool can lose to a cannon rush. I build pool at 12 and have faced cannon rush quite a few times and the cannon isnt even close to finishing by the time my 4 lings pop. As a Z I think you should actually be happy to face cheese like that with a pre 14 pool since you're almost guaranteed to put the P behind I find, and my build is basically copied straight from decaf's ZvP guide where he says exactly that and he plays at a pretty high level.
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vs terran standard reactor hellion opening what's the timing for CC to be "operative" in his natural? if you don't see CC at the right timing and u are not able to scout (u don't have an overlord in position or the scout is denied by marines) what do u assume? i think there are many possibilities and in some cases its hard to know exactly.. banshee, hellion marauder, 2 facorty reactor hellion, 2-3 tank marine, hellion drop.. some tips about it?
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On February 06 2012 06:58 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2012 06:20 ilju wrote:On February 06 2012 06:04 blade55555 wrote:On February 06 2012 05:32 MegaDancer wrote:
I find 11 overpool to be so much more cheese-proof than 14 pool in zvp. I know my friend Belial will strongly disagree xd.
Also 11 overpool allows me to clear up the natural, chase the probe.(I make 4 zerlings instead of 2, and a queen with an extractor trick, then Ovie, then hatch). Also I would take my third very fast as well(like 21 supply.
14 pool just feels akward to me. Feels like their probe will delay it forever and plant nexus before me. With an 11 overpool it just never happens unless they nexus first. Plus earlier lings scare toss oftentimes and make him extra cautious with the wall.
Another benefit that I find is that I wouldn't need an Ovie over my ramp. I could just send him to scout. And like Darkforce said, it is a good idea to chase the probe with a drone. And with the 11 op it just seems too hard for toss to do it, especially if they don't find you immediately.
And the 4 Zerglings that I get allow me a lot of map control like watching the ramp, looking for probe and the best thing is patrolling one ling around the third to prevent shenanigans. The problem with the 11 overpool build is its really really hard to stop a 4 gate. If your protoss opponent see's you are 11 pooling and isn't forge FE'ing he can just 4 gate you and will most likely win unless he fucks up bad. 11 pool is really quiet bad imo and should never be used as a standard build but thats just my opinion on it which is obviously that an opinion not a fact . Why is it so hard to stop 4gate? Well this is more going by what my protoss friend time said awhile back. He used to play vs a zerg who only 11 pooled so he 4 gated him and won the 5 games in a row they played because ling speed is so delayed. But I will be honest I am not sure if you get roaches out if you can or can't hold it but I can not see you surviving with just lings since speed is so delayed due to the 11 pool 16 hatch. Show nested quote +On February 06 2012 06:38 MegaDancer wrote:
Well I generally use 11 pool on the maps where toss will likely ffe. And as far as 4 gate I feel like it depends on when you take your gas. It seems like if you take it around 15 supply, you will have speed on time to defend any kind of 4 gate. I might be wrong but it seems like I haven't lost to a 4 gate forever, even when I play on kr server(diamond there, mid master here) and I have 250 ms delay and they seem to 4 gate more. I would say way more.(almost none on NA)
And dear Blade, I'm sorry to mix you up with Darkforce, good sir. XD I forgives you :D. I am just going by what my protoss friends said awhile back that he would 4 gate 11 pool zergs because they couldn't hold it due to ling speed being so late (this is the 11 pool - 16 hatch which I am assuming you do the same?).
definitely agree with you on the 4 gate but I never see toss open gate/core any more it's always FFE and 11 overpool or any early pool into economy is a perfectly good build. I was using the no gas 12 pool into 2 hatch on maps that are commonly FFE, Shakuras, Tal darim, Entombed Valley, pretty much EVERY damn map because toss just doesn't want to gate/core anymore. I only do a 14 gas 14 pool on shattered (sometimes metal for the same reasons) because it's more common for a toss to open gate/core on that map and if they open FFE, well... Just get 10-12 speedlings after your pool finishes (with a queen of course) and when speed finishes do a run by, he won't have sentries in time and wont have enough buildings to stop all of your lings. Then just harass his main if he doesn't gg and drone like crazy, take your natural and decide what to do from there.
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http://drop.sc/106057
Effing. Protoss.
Anyway, in this above replay, I'm playing a rather good toss, and, I scout like a normal person, see the stargate, drop evo chamber and start to attempt to defend vs air. Admittedly, I fail to some extent...and yes, I did drop a ton of spores...because, if I hadn't, phoenixes would have done so much more damage. In other words, I make up for my own god awful unit control with more spores.
But the problem is...this guy got immortals AND colossi off two bases. Which is more or less my problem. After scouting like 5 colossi, what should I have done? If you say broods, I'll beat you. It's pretty obvious he was going to push long before I had the opportunity to get broods.
In my opinion of what happened, I think the fact that I went infestors vs phoenix (or rather, intended to, then, when I killed his third, saw the colossi and dropped the spire) is what hurt me the most. After scouting more with lings earlier, I should have known he was going colossi, dropped a spire, and started making corrupters and taken another base.
What do you think I should have done??
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On February 05 2012 17:15 Host- wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2012 17:11 nicke10 wrote:What do you guys think about Zenios ZvP style? "rushing" hydras to defend ANY toss can throw at him in the mid game and then goes in to mutas. Roachless I don't like it at all. I've not experimented with it but it just appears to be really wierd and gimmicky and I don't see how you can get enough hydras out to deal with a 6 gate. I mean obviously it works for him but I prefer to stick to what works for me, which is maxing out really quick and then going into hive tech. Also each time I've seen it used theres not been a fast 3rd which is think is retarded.
He takes a quick third on maps where the third is safe. He goes 2 base on maps like shattered and tal'darim.
On February 05 2012 21:12 Olsson wrote:Played a ZvT on cross Tal'Darim. I opened hatch first, got away with it, three queens, pumping drones, his hellions come two spines down zero damage taken. I try to run lings past his hellion but he keeps denying them so Iahve no idea whats going on inside his base. It's cross so my overlords havn't made their way yet. Lair finishes and my spire goes down, I see 14+ hellions just melting my spines and rolling it killing all but leaving 10 drones, my mutas and some roaches pop and clean up but ive already lost. TL;DR How do you scout mass hellion when they deny all kind of scouting. Show nested quote +On February 05 2012 17:11 nicke10 wrote:What do you guys think about Zenios ZvP style? "rushing" hydras to defend ANY toss can throw at him in the mid game and then goes in to mutas. Roachless Well the plan is to get muta for Zenio anyways so I fail to realize why he is going hydras when he just masses lings anyways and stops hydra production at like 7 and then saves up gas. Seems like a shitty investment to me.
Because you can't defend with ling only. Some games he doesn't even get hydras when he know he's 100% safe and when he's not sure he will get like 8 hydras max and pressure(SCOUT) with them while getting mutas. He doesn't even get hydra range most games.
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On February 06 2012 04:57 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2012 04:54 Falcon-sw wrote:
FUCK PROTOSS. Goddam three pylons blocking off my ramp and cannons behind. I spot the cannons early, pull workers and try the drone stack thing and it kills the pylon just in time for everything to die to cannons. Seriously a shit move. I even 12 pooled on Shakuras, thinking it was the safe way to go. That is why I always have a drone follow the probe so I can stop that from happening. If you just let the probe wonder around doing whatever he wants he can pylon wall you any time. That drone stack trick also doesn't work on some maps I believe from experience or you have to click on further minerals maybe idk but yeah just try to put a drone on hold position at ramp once you see he's going to try for it.
Thank you for the advice.
What makes me mad is I saw his forge at his main with no gateway, no fast expand and completely failed to recognize what that could mean. Zerg is so tough sometimes... forget one simple thing and it's an auto loss. Didn't get detection at 6 minutes? Dark templar just killed you. Or cloaked banshee. Didn't scout that double stargate? Insta-loss to phoenix or void ray. Really annoying sometimes.
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On February 06 2012 06:04 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2012 05:32 MegaDancer wrote:
I find 11 overpool to be so much more cheese-proof than 14 pool in zvp. I know my friend Belial will strongly disagree xd.
Also 11 overpool allows me to clear up the natural, chase the probe.(I make 4 zerlings instead of 2, and a queen with an extractor trick, then Ovie, then hatch). Also I would take my third very fast as well(like 21 supply.
14 pool just feels akward to me. Feels like their probe will delay it forever and plant nexus before me. With an 11 overpool it just never happens unless they nexus first. Plus earlier lings scare toss oftentimes and make him extra cautious with the wall.
Another benefit that I find is that I wouldn't need an Ovie over my ramp. I could just send him to scout. And like Darkforce said, it is a good idea to chase the probe with a drone. And with the 11 op it just seems too hard for toss to do it, especially if they don't find you immediately.
And the 4 Zerglings that I get allow me a lot of map control like watching the ramp, looking for probe and the best thing is patrolling one ling around the third to prevent shenanigans. The problem with the 11 overpool build is its really really hard to stop a 4 gate. If your protoss opponent see's you are 11 pooling and isn't forge FE'ing he can just 4 gate you and will most likely win unless he fucks up bad. 11 pool is really quiet bad imo and should never be used as a standard build but thats just my opinion on it which is obviously that an opinion not a fact .
how do you feel about the icefisher build after the 11ppol (gasless, 4 queeens + spines). Personally, I always go 11 overpool against toss and just delay my gas since as you said, the speed won't hit on time when the 4 gate hit, plus I can get spines which is sort of a replacement for roaches.
I feel that 14/14 kinds of give the toss a huge advantage in economy if he is going for FFE.
(and thanks for the replay pack, love to watch a good macro zerg playing, always entertaining)
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On February 06 2012 06:50 NexUmbra wrote:A picture tells a thousand words.
Heya,
I'm no pro but the 4th I take depends on what my opponent is doing. For example:
If they're a T with heavy drops, I take the natural location - easier access for my defense.
If they're a T with mech play, I'll take the main location - harder for them to push on (takes longer).
If they're a P with FF/Blink and mobility, I take the natural - wider ramp harder to FF, safer from ledge blink harass.
If they're a T with a deathball style, I take the main - same reason as mech Terran.
If I'm doing really well, I'll just take the gold
None of this I would consider dogma but it works for me. I suppose it's just how the game "feels" it's playing out. It's also worth noting that if you can secure the natural spot you almost have a guaranteed fifth in the main. If you secure the early main spot, it may be harder to take the more open natural spot later (I have run into this issue as armies get bigger/stronger).
EDIT: this is all under the assumption that the place you expo to (regardless of nat/main) is primarily decided by where your opponent is, and expanding to, as well.
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EPT
