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On February 02 2012 23:37 Olsson wrote: I have a few questions to you guys regarding ZvP:
1. What do you feel about 2base mutalisk play vs a FFE? I like it though because on some maps the third will be severely delayed and by going muta you will come out even with the protoss since he won't feel as free to take his own third without the appropriate tech and infrastructure.
2. Whats your gameplan on compositions along with upgrades? I've been trying with mutas and lings but if I don't do much damage I've lost and it's hard to do damage to toss now adays for me since muta play is just getting more common and protoss are learning on how to deal with it well.
3. Versus mass blink stalkers, are hydras really worth going into or should I just go into roach ling infestor? I prefer the later one because I played a game last night where I got hydras and I totally raped his first army but he just came at me with three colossi after and I couldn't do much.
I'm a mid masters player who just got back in after a 2 week break because of my keyboard being sent to repair.
I think 2base muta is a bit silly and really don't agree with doing it, even on tal darim, having said that I don't go mutas on any map so thats just my opinion on it.
2. My composition of choice is roach ling -> Roach Festor Bainrain. I go for a +1 timing, then a +2 +1 timing after that, whilst teching and taking my 4th.
3. I believe blade has said somewhere that vs a blink stalker all in you NEED hydras. I'm a bit split on this and it kinda depends when it hits and if i scout it. That being said I think hydras are probably the correct choice, and if you scout a robo/robo units after then throw down a spire.
On February 03 2012 00:25 Olsson wrote: Also what do you guys think about nexus first in ZvP? How do you respond to it? I don't like continuing the macro game after that point knowing that they have a huge advantage. The only way to punish it is to go 11poolish but if they scout in time it's nullfied and if they go FFE I end up behind anyways.
I 12 pool in ZvP so if I see a Nexus first ahead of time I make a stream of lings and simply win there and then (usually they won't have a cannon up). If I don't see it early enough then I ignore it basically and continue as I normally would v FFE. It depends how you open aswell really. If i open gas pool I'll roach ling all in a nexus first.
On February 03 2012 00:25 Olsson wrote: Also what do you guys think about nexus first in ZvP? How do you respond to it? I don't like continuing the macro game after that point knowing that they have a huge advantage. The only way to punish it is to go 11poolish but if they scout in time it's nullfied and if they go FFE I end up behind anyways.
How can a nexus first protoss nullify an 11-pool? Zerglings can knock down a wall before cannons are up the vast majority of the time, especially since the 'toss is forced to use pylons to block off if they're in a hurry.
On February 03 2012 00:25 Olsson wrote: Also what do you guys think about nexus first in ZvP? How do you respond to it? I don't like continuing the macro game after that point knowing that they have a huge advantage. The only way to punish it is to go 11poolish but if they scout in time it's nullfied and if they go FFE I end up behind anyways.
How can a nexus first protoss nullify an 11-pool? Zerglings can knock down a wall before cannons are up the vast majority of the time, especially since the 'toss is forced to use pylons to block off if they're in a hurry.
He scouts it and reacts properly. Wheter it is to block the ramp with probes and to get a cannon up or just to ditch the natural and get a cannon in the main.
On shakuras he will scout in time on Tal'Darim it's a gamble if he will.
On February 03 2012 00:25 Olsson wrote: Also what do you guys think about nexus first in ZvP? How do you respond to it? I don't like continuing the macro game after that point knowing that they have a huge advantage. The only way to punish it is to go 11poolish but if they scout in time it's nullfied and if they go FFE I end up behind anyways.
How can a nexus first protoss nullify an 11-pool? Zerglings can knock down a wall before cannons are up the vast majority of the time, especially since the 'toss is forced to use pylons to block off if they're in a hurry.
He scouts it and reacts properly. Wheter it is to block the ramp with probes and to get a cannon up or just to ditch the natural and get a cannon in the main.
On shakuras he will scout in time on Tal'Darim it's a gamble if he will.
If he pulls off mining and loses probes, you're ahead.
If he cancels/leaves the nexus to be killed, you're WAY ahead.
I'd hardly call that nullification of an 11-pool...
On February 03 2012 00:25 Olsson wrote: Also what do you guys think about nexus first in ZvP? How do you respond to it? I don't like continuing the macro game after that point knowing that they have a huge advantage. The only way to punish it is to go 11poolish but if they scout in time it's nullfied and if they go FFE I end up behind anyways.
How can a nexus first protoss nullify an 11-pool? Zerglings can knock down a wall before cannons are up the vast majority of the time, especially since the 'toss is forced to use pylons to block off if they're in a hurry.
He scouts it and reacts properly. Wheter it is to block the ramp with probes and to get a cannon up or just to ditch the natural and get a cannon in the main.
On shakuras he will scout in time on Tal'Darim it's a gamble if he will.
If he pulls off mining and loses probes, you're ahead.
If he cancels/leaves the nexus to be killed, you're WAY ahead.
I'd hardly call that nullification of an 11-pool...
I just faced a FFE now he got the cannon up in time. If it was a nexus first ofcourse I'd be ahead. But it's a really silly gamble and people go FFE more often than nexus first anyways. The problem is when they go nexus first, they'll be ahead like hell if I dont early pool.
On February 03 2012 00:25 Olsson wrote: Also what do you guys think about nexus first in ZvP? How do you respond to it? I don't like continuing the macro game after that point knowing that they have a huge advantage. The only way to punish it is to go 11poolish but if they scout in time it's nullfied and if they go FFE I end up behind anyways.
How can a nexus first protoss nullify an 11-pool? Zerglings can knock down a wall before cannons are up the vast majority of the time, especially since the 'toss is forced to use pylons to block off if they're in a hurry.
He scouts it and reacts properly. Wheter it is to block the ramp with probes and to get a cannon up or just to ditch the natural and get a cannon in the main.
On shakuras he will scout in time on Tal'Darim it's a gamble if he will.
If he pulls off mining and loses probes, you're ahead.
If he cancels/leaves the nexus to be killed, you're WAY ahead.
I'd hardly call that nullification of an 11-pool...
I just faced a FFE now he got the cannon up in time. If it was a nexus first ofcourse I'd be ahead. But it's a really silly gamble and people go FFE more often than nexus first anyways. The problem is when they go nexus first, they'll be ahead like hell if I dont early pool.
There is not that much difference between 15 nex/15 forge and 13 forge/17 nex to warrant a pre-emptive early pool. Zerg will still be ahead in eco in the midgame with an early third if the game plays out standard.
What's the most effective way to deal with a DT expand? You can't punish/attack it before lair tech, and even then, the Protoss just need to snipe your overseer.
Also what do you guys think about nexus first in ZvP? How do you respond to it? I don't like continuing the macro game after that point knowing that they have a huge advantage. The only way to punish it is to go 11poolish but if they scout in time it's nullfied and if they go FFE I end up behind anyways.
Unless you went 11 pool or earlier, there's nothing you can do. Even with an 11 pool, you can't do much, you just might be able to get 4 lings into his base if you really sac drones by not making anything and letting 3 larva pool up for when pool pops, which won't do much damage (not enough to make up for it that's for sure) if he micros well (doesn't overreact with probes, just mineral walks probes you are attacking).
They don't have a 'huge' advantage, just take your third as normal. If you scout early enough, you can even go hatch first, or hatch earlier than normal, as you know he can't cannon anything. Just get your gas/roach warren/speed later because you know his gateway will be delayed.
What's the most effective way to deal with a DT expand? You can't punish/attack it before lair tech, and even then, the Protoss just need to snipe your overseer.
Just drone up really hard, go 2 base late lair with a really strong econ, and use that overseer to snab that third right away. You'll be slightly behind in econ compared to normal fast third vs 3 gate sentry expand, but you can take comfort that he took his natural really late because he had to tech to DTs.
To those who hatch first: How do you protect yourselves from 1 base allins (ie 14/14 ling/bane, whatever), or in general, how do you open?
I go 14h/15p/15g, and get bane nest as soon as pool is done. This times cleanly, and based on how many lings the opponent makes when his 14 pool finishes and the map distance (ie does he pool 3 larva for when pool pops on a shorter map) I'll make a spine tucked away at natural or main (as it wont finish in time) and enough lings, and bane nest. I'll eventually add a queen at nat, but it's secondary to spines, lings, and banes.
I hold just fine, as bane nest starts when opponents bane nest starts.
But I see a lot of zergs, particularly pros, go double queen + spine. I was wondering how that works out. What if they do a 1 base ling/bane all-in and just attack the hatch out of range of the spine and queens? It seems like you'd just die and cant do anything about it. It also seems like your banes are later and it's much harder to deal with ling/bane aggression.
I've tried doing double queen, but it just falls apart miserably, my bane nest is late, i dont get enough banes, and i miss the transfuse so obviously I know I'm not used to it.
But I was just wondering how others play hatch first - roaches (i mean thats what nestea does, stop droning at 17, double queen, roach warren when pool pops, pool enough for like 5 roaches at once if opponent doesnt expand), double queen, or banes (like i do).
I mean, what I do works, but it seems like maybe double queen is better if the opponent also goes hatch first, a bit greedier. I guess I could just double queen myself when I scout hatch first and just get speed and then bane nest. I think against hatch first I usually get a queen, speed and then bane nest, and then 2nd queen; maybe i could be greedier.
Anyone have any VODs of fast third zerg beating a 7 gate all-in? I was just wondering on some specifics about the build (macro hatch timing, lair timing if at all, spines). This has always been the hardest 2 base all-in to hold. I pretty much beat it on maps like Shakuras or Entombed but lose to it on TDA because it's always so close that literally the rally points from main to that faraway third I take on TDA (ugh i hate the thought of making a macro hatch by rocks) that I end up losing half the time on that map. So I was wondering if maybe pros do something like make a macro hatch, or spines, or something, that maybe I'm not doing.
On February 03 2012 11:31 Host- wrote: What's the most effective way to deal with a DT expand? You can't punish/attack it before lair tech, and even then, the Protoss just need to snipe your overseer.
I would just continue on with my macro style game while getting a spore at each base with a spore at the entrance to to your Nat. Then I would just do either a 2 base or 3 base roach/hydra timing.
On February 03 2012 13:28 Belial88 wrote: I have a question:
To those who hatch first: How do you protect yourselves from 1 base allins (ie 14/14 ling/bane, whatever), or in general, how do you open?
I go 14h/15p/15g, and get bane nest as soon as pool is done. This times cleanly, and based on how many lings the opponent makes when his 14 pool finishes and the map distance (ie does he pool 3 larva for when pool pops on a shorter map) I'll make a spine tucked away at natural or main (as it wont finish in time) and enough lings, and bane nest. I'll eventually add a queen at nat, but it's secondary to spines, lings, and banes.
I hold just fine, as bane nest starts when opponents bane nest starts.
But I see a lot of zergs, particularly pros, go double queen + spine. I was wondering how that works out. What if they do a 1 base ling/bane all-in and just attack the hatch out of range of the spine and queens? It seems like you'd just die and cant do anything about it. It also seems like your banes are later and it's much harder to deal with ling/bane aggression.
I've tried doing double queen, but it just falls apart miserably, my bane nest is late, i dont get enough banes, and i miss the transfuse so obviously I know I'm not used to it.
But I was just wondering how others play hatch first - roaches (i mean thats what nestea does, stop droning at 17, double queen, roach warren when pool pops, pool enough for like 5 roaches at once if opponent doesnt expand), double queen, or banes (like i do).
I mean, what I do works, but it seems like maybe double queen is better if the opponent also goes hatch first, a bit greedier. I guess I could just double queen myself when I scout hatch first and just get speed and then bane nest. I think against hatch first I usually get a queen, speed and then bane nest, and then 2nd queen; maybe i could be greedier.
I do see a lot of pros holding it with fast baneling nest, but as far as the roach opener goes a really effective hold is 15h14p17g 4-6 lings, SINGLE queen, then like 20-21 roach warren, (I usually throw in an extra drone making it 21 roach warren), then overlord, then roaches. This timing comes in to handle any speed+baneling allin, however no speed baneling allins will hit while they're building, in which case you just need to micro well. as far as double queen+spine, make a wall inbetween your hatch and ramp with the spine and queens, and your lings behind protecting your ramp. if he tries to go around he can't lead with banes so your lings will hit his first, and you can focus banes with spine and queens while pulling majority of lings partially up your ramp when banes get too close.
Since my macro isn't all that strong yet, is it ok to take a macro hatch before my 3rd or is this a bad habit that I should end now? I find myself needing a macro hatch in most of my games lately to either keep unit production up or to settle floated minerals.
Also, in ZvZ I've been successful lately in the following opener: 14g/14p, speed @100gas and take drones off geyser roach warren once queen is out pump only lings past 30 supply expand when i scout his/when I find it safe roach/lings into mid-game
I was getting stomped by baneling openers and this has really helped but I'm afraid that I won't be able to keep up with an opponent that takes his nat at say, 21 supply if he holds my attack. Is there a more reliable ZvZ opener that's being used at higher levels?
On February 03 2012 16:32 BossPlaya wrote: Hi gold level zerg here.
Since my macro isn't all that strong yet, is it ok to take a macro hatch before my 3rd or is this a bad habit that I should end now? I find myself needing a macro hatch in most of my games lately to either keep unit production up or to settle floated minerals.
Also, in ZvZ I've been successful lately in the following opener: 14g/14p, speed @100gas and take drones off geyser roach warren once queen is out pump only lings past 30 supply expand when i scout his/when I find it safe roach/lings into mid-game
I was getting stomped by baneling openers and this has really helped but I'm afraid that I won't be able to keep up with an opponent that takes his nat at say, 21 supply if he holds my attack. Is there a more reliable ZvZ opener that's being used at higher levels?
While you should work on your macro first, I know pro players who do the same thing get a macro hatch before third. Its fine nothing wrong with it at all but if you are doing it at like 30-40-50 supply thats due to bad macro that just needs to be practiced on ^^.
On February 03 2012 13:28 Belial88 wrote: I have a question:
To those who hatch first: How do you protect yourselves from 1 base allins (ie 14/14 ling/bane, whatever), or in general, how do you open?
I go 14h/15p/15g, and get bane nest as soon as pool is done. This times cleanly, and based on how many lings the opponent makes when his 14 pool finishes and the map distance (ie does he pool 3 larva for when pool pops on a shorter map) I'll make a spine tucked away at natural or main (as it wont finish in time) and enough lings, and bane nest. I'll eventually add a queen at nat, but it's secondary to spines, lings, and banes.
I hold just fine, as bane nest starts when opponents bane nest starts.
But I see a lot of zergs, particularly pros, go double queen + spine. I was wondering how that works out. What if they do a 1 base ling/bane all-in and just attack the hatch out of range of the spine and queens? It seems like you'd just die and cant do anything about it. It also seems like your banes are later and it's much harder to deal with ling/bane aggression.
I've tried doing double queen, but it just falls apart miserably, my bane nest is late, i dont get enough banes, and i miss the transfuse so obviously I know I'm not used to it.
But I was just wondering how others play hatch first - roaches (i mean thats what nestea does, stop droning at 17, double queen, roach warren when pool pops, pool enough for like 5 roaches at once if opponent doesnt expand), double queen, or banes (like i do).
I mean, what I do works, but it seems like maybe double queen is better if the opponent also goes hatch first, a bit greedier. I guess I could just double queen myself when I scout hatch first and just get speed and then bane nest. I think against hatch first I usually get a queen, speed and then bane nest, and then 2nd queen; maybe i could be greedier.
I do see a lot of pros holding it with fast baneling nest, but as far as the roach opener goes a really effective hold is 15h14p17g 4-6 lings, SINGLE queen, then like 20-21 roach warren, (I usually throw in an extra drone making it 21 roach warren), then overlord, then roaches. This timing comes in to handle any speed+baneling allin, however no speed baneling allins will hit while they're building, in which case you just need to micro well. as far as double queen+spine, make a wall inbetween your hatch and ramp with the spine and queens, and your lings behind protecting your ramp. if he tries to go around he can't lead with banes so your lings will hit his first, and you can focus banes with spine and queens while pulling majority of lings partially up your ramp when banes get too close.
15h - 14p - 16ovi - 17g, all larva as pool pops to lings and roach warren right away, queen at nat and overlord at 20. Stops ANY 14/14 rush no problem, I used it to get into masters but stopped now. The big problem with it is that if you can't get an overlord in time behind their nat you are completly in the dark. Some players do a speedling expand into mass speedlings behind it, and some do a speedling expand into mass drones. Each of those strategies require you to either completly stop roach production or completly stop drone production right away. But if you do choose to 15 hatch into roach, it's a good idea to take one drone off gas after the first 3-5 roaches to catch up in drones against a 14 pool player who goes into macro. Transitions really well into roach ling allin as well.
On February 03 2012 13:28 Belial88 wrote: I have a question:
To those who hatch first: How do you protect yourselves from 1 base allins (ie 14/14 ling/bane, whatever), or in general, how do you open?
I go 14h/15p/15g, and get bane nest as soon as pool is done. This times cleanly, and based on how many lings the opponent makes when his 14 pool finishes and the map distance (ie does he pool 3 larva for when pool pops on a shorter map) I'll make a spine tucked away at natural or main (as it wont finish in time) and enough lings, and bane nest. I'll eventually add a queen at nat, but it's secondary to spines, lings, and banes.
I hold just fine, as bane nest starts when opponents bane nest starts.
But I see a lot of zergs, particularly pros, go double queen + spine. I was wondering how that works out. What if they do a 1 base ling/bane all-in and just attack the hatch out of range of the spine and queens? It seems like you'd just die and cant do anything about it. It also seems like your banes are later and it's much harder to deal with ling/bane aggression.
I've tried doing double queen, but it just falls apart miserably, my bane nest is late, i dont get enough banes, and i miss the transfuse so obviously I know I'm not used to it.
But I was just wondering how others play hatch first - roaches (i mean thats what nestea does, stop droning at 17, double queen, roach warren when pool pops, pool enough for like 5 roaches at once if opponent doesnt expand), double queen, or banes (like i do).
I mean, what I do works, but it seems like maybe double queen is better if the opponent also goes hatch first, a bit greedier. I guess I could just double queen myself when I scout hatch first and just get speed and then bane nest. I think against hatch first I usually get a queen, speed and then bane nest, and then 2nd queen; maybe i could be greedier.
Very effective and don't have to worry bout fucking up ling/bane vs ling/bane. Although you do have to go the baneling route on a map like taldarim as soona s pool finishes.
But I see a lot of zergs, particularly pros, go double queen + spine. I was wondering how that works out. What if they do a 1 base ling/bane all-in and just attack the hatch out of range of the spine and queens? It seems like you'd just die and cant do anything about it. It also seems like your banes are later and it's much harder to deal with ling/bane aggression.
I've tried doing double queen, but it just falls apart miserably, my bane nest is late, i dont get enough banes, and i miss the transfuse so obviously I know I'm not used to it.
What Stephano does is 15 hatch 15 pool 17 overlord, drones until 18, and then 2 spines, double queen and zerglings. Now if you scout (with overlord) that he is not expanding, spam more queens and spines and zerglings with your money, as if you hold, you will win... (you can have like 4 queens and 4 spines, if his all in is late; it's fine in my experience, as long as he has not expanded). If you see him speedling expand, then stay with 1 or 2 spines (I am personnally tempted with just making one in that case), 2 queens and 8 zerglings; while taking gas asap you see the expansion; then make speed with the 1st 100 gas, baneling nest with the following 50 hundred, and then 3 or so banelings... while droning. About queen and spine localisation, I would put spines close to the nat, so that they protect it; queens should probably stay to protect the ramp; but you also have slowlings to protect the natural, once banelings are gone... what stephano does is preventively splitting his slowlings all around his natural when banelings are expected (i.e. not stacking them, even in the back).
On February 03 2012 13:28 Belial88 wrote: I have a question:
To those who hatch first: How do you protect yourselves from 1 base allins (ie 14/14 ling/bane, whatever), or in general, how do you open?
I go 14h/15p/15g, and get bane nest as soon as pool is done. This times cleanly, and based on how many lings the opponent makes when his 14 pool finishes and the map distance (ie does he pool 3 larva for when pool pops on a shorter map) I'll make a spine tucked away at natural or main (as it wont finish in time) and enough lings, and bane nest. I'll eventually add a queen at nat, but it's secondary to spines, lings, and banes.
I hold just fine, as bane nest starts when opponents bane nest starts.
But I see a lot of zergs, particularly pros, go double queen + spine. I was wondering how that works out. What if they do a 1 base ling/bane all-in and just attack the hatch out of range of the spine and queens? It seems like you'd just die and cant do anything about it. It also seems like your banes are later and it's much harder to deal with ling/bane aggression.
I've tried doing double queen, but it just falls apart miserably, my bane nest is late, i dont get enough banes, and i miss the transfuse so obviously I know I'm not used to it.
But I was just wondering how others play hatch first - roaches (i mean thats what nestea does, stop droning at 17, double queen, roach warren when pool pops, pool enough for like 5 roaches at once if opponent doesnt expand), double queen, or banes (like i do).
I mean, what I do works, but it seems like maybe double queen is better if the opponent also goes hatch first, a bit greedier. I guess I could just double queen myself when I scout hatch first and just get speed and then bane nest. I think against hatch first I usually get a queen, speed and then bane nest, and then 2nd queen; maybe i could be greedier.
I do see a lot of pros holding it with fast baneling nest, but as far as the roach opener goes a really effective hold is 15h14p17g 4-6 lings, SINGLE queen, then like 20-21 roach warren, (I usually throw in an extra drone making it 21 roach warren), then overlord, then roaches. This timing comes in to handle any speed+baneling allin, however no speed baneling allins will hit while they're building, in which case you just need to micro well. as far as double queen+spine, make a wall inbetween your hatch and ramp with the spine and queens, and your lings behind protecting your ramp. if he tries to go around he can't lead with banes so your lings will hit his first, and you can focus banes with spine and queens while pulling majority of lings partially up your ramp when banes get too close.
15h - 14p - 16ovi - 17h, all larva as pool pops to lings and roach warren right away, queen at nat and overlord at 20. Stops ANY 14/14 rush no problem, I used it to get into masters but stopped now. The big problem with it is that if you can't get an overlord in time behind their nat you are completly in the dark. Some players do a speedling expand into mass speedlings behind it, and some do a speedling expand into mass drones. Each of those strategies require you to either completly stop roach production or completly stop drone production right away. But if you do choose to 15 hatch into roach, it's a good idea to take one drone off gas after the first 3-5 roaches to catch up in drones against a 14 pool player who goes into macro. Transitions really well into roach ling allin as well.
Yeah that is the reason I don't prefer the roach opener, though it's still effective. so you go 17hatch again, or is that a typo? it would seem that 3hatch that fast in addition to roaches would be an enormous resource dumb leaving you really far behind in drones if they don't go allin.
On February 03 2012 13:28 Belial88 wrote: I have a question:
To those who hatch first: How do you protect yourselves from 1 base allins (ie 14/14 ling/bane, whatever), or in general, how do you open?
I go 14h/15p/15g, and get bane nest as soon as pool is done. This times cleanly, and based on how many lings the opponent makes when his 14 pool finishes and the map distance (ie does he pool 3 larva for when pool pops on a shorter map) I'll make a spine tucked away at natural or main (as it wont finish in time) and enough lings, and bane nest. I'll eventually add a queen at nat, but it's secondary to spines, lings, and banes.
I hold just fine, as bane nest starts when opponents bane nest starts.
But I see a lot of zergs, particularly pros, go double queen + spine. I was wondering how that works out. What if they do a 1 base ling/bane all-in and just attack the hatch out of range of the spine and queens? It seems like you'd just die and cant do anything about it. It also seems like your banes are later and it's much harder to deal with ling/bane aggression.
I've tried doing double queen, but it just falls apart miserably, my bane nest is late, i dont get enough banes, and i miss the transfuse so obviously I know I'm not used to it.
But I was just wondering how others play hatch first - roaches (i mean thats what nestea does, stop droning at 17, double queen, roach warren when pool pops, pool enough for like 5 roaches at once if opponent doesnt expand), double queen, or banes (like i do).
I mean, what I do works, but it seems like maybe double queen is better if the opponent also goes hatch first, a bit greedier. I guess I could just double queen myself when I scout hatch first and just get speed and then bane nest. I think against hatch first I usually get a queen, speed and then bane nest, and then 2nd queen; maybe i could be greedier.
I do see a lot of pros holding it with fast baneling nest, but as far as the roach opener goes a really effective hold is 15h14p17g 4-6 lings, SINGLE queen, then like 20-21 roach warren, (I usually throw in an extra drone making it 21 roach warren), then overlord, then roaches. This timing comes in to handle any speed+baneling allin, however no speed baneling allins will hit while they're building, in which case you just need to micro well. as far as double queen+spine, make a wall inbetween your hatch and ramp with the spine and queens, and your lings behind protecting your ramp. if he tries to go around he can't lead with banes so your lings will hit his first, and you can focus banes with spine and queens while pulling majority of lings partially up your ramp when banes get too close.
15h - 14p - 16ovi - 17h, all larva as pool pops to lings and roach warren right away, queen at nat and overlord at 20. Stops ANY 14/14 rush no problem, I used it to get into masters but stopped now. The big problem with it is that if you can't get an overlord in time behind their nat you are completly in the dark. Some players do a speedling expand into mass speedlings behind it, and some do a speedling expand into mass drones. Each of those strategies require you to either completly stop roach production or completly stop drone production right away. But if you do choose to 15 hatch into roach, it's a good idea to take one drone off gas after the first 3-5 roaches to catch up in drones against a 14 pool player who goes into macro. Transitions really well into roach ling allin as well.
Yeah that is the reason I don't prefer the roach opener, though it's still effective. so you go 17hatch again, or is that a typo? it would seem that 3hatch that fast in addition to roaches would be an enormous resource dumb leaving you really far behind in drones if they don't go allin.
Oops no it's 17 gas, I'll correct that.
Edit : And I used that build from blade55555's guide who commented right above, so all credit to him and go read his thread!
EPT
