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On February 01 2012 02:29 rustypipe wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2012 01:06 Vega62a wrote:On January 31 2012 00:19 Timmer wrote:
So I just started playing again, and am slowly making my way up through Silver right now. I've been pretty much focusing on strengthening a roach rush, but when my opponent puts up a good enough defense to hold my roaches off, I usually fall apart after that.
Last night I had one game where Terran held off my rush long enough and was able to come at me with a good mix of marines, marauders and thors. His one attack was pretty much a wipe, and then went on to say I was the worst they've seen in a while. It was justifiable because I had no clue what to counter with. Another strategy I'm bad against is Stalker/Sentry build.
I understand that I need to learn how to adapt with each game, but is there a pro I can watch videos of that uses a roach rush build? Or should I change my strat entirely? Also, unrelated, but is there a site I can upload my videos to even though I suck? It's generally a bad idea at any level to rely solely upon a cheesy or gimmicky build to carry you, but even moreso at the lower levels. Even if it works every time, you're going to wind up with no idea how to actually play out a standard game and get completely stuck when your MMR gets high enough. This happened to me when I played Protoss, I just DT rushed every Terran since none of them scouted or built detection, and when I hit diamond, my winrate in the matchup went from 90% to about 10%. Mr. Showtime's post should give you a good idea of some standard openings. I prefer the 15 variety (v Terran 15 hatch 15 pool 15 gas, v Protoss 15 pool 15 hatch, gas later on - never open hatch first vs protoss, as they can block or cannon it easily before lings are out) but it doesn't really matter which you use, as long as you execute it crisply. Focus on coming up with a good game plan that stretches out into the mid- and lategame, as that will give you the most practice with managing your economy, macro mechanics, and controlling large engagements, something that you will get basically no experience with with your current plan. That said, everyone needs to cheese sometimes. If you're looking for a good roach rush, consider a ling/baneling/roach rush (I think it was originally Leenock's, but Sheth uses it in the link I'm posting), which aTnCloud claims is an autowin against any terran who doesn't have at least one tank out. http://www.twitch.tv/liquidsheth/b/306952170 This is not true at all, at the bronze / silver level picking one build and perfecting to it can be very helpful as a learning tool. Everyone knows that the All-In's will not win you games forever however it does many things to help lower players. 1.) It helps them perfect a build instead of getting confused or trying to do 100000 different things leading to a loss 2.) Improves injects, timings, macro, and micro slowly while perfecting the build 3.) Gives them some acutal wins as lossing game after game can be crushing for any skill level, mixing in some win's wihle learning is always a good thing and provides people with some modivation to keep playing. To many times I see people say to bronze / silver players ohhh you need to do this, this, this, and this while giving them a complicated standard build. What happens when you acutally watch bronze / silver players try and perform these builds, they fall apart at the seems because there other skills have not yet developed enough to execute them properly. For example I was recently helping coach a bronze zerg player and he was trying the stehpano build type of 15 hatch 16 pool mass ling with mass upgrades, but his macro, micro, injects, and decision making was not at the place required for that build to be fully successful for him as of yet. So what was happening ? He would loose to hellions horras or hellion pushes or when a terran did push since his macro / micro wasn't there yet he wouldn't have the drone count / army to kill it. Yes everyone should learn how to play standard and how to playout a full game however some of the more simple builds / all-ins can be used as great learning tools, the important thing to remeber is its a tool in the process of progression
Couldn't disagree more. The mistaken assumption you make is that perfecting a "standard" build ends earlier than perfecting a cheesy build. Getting a 15h/15p/15g right lasts way longer than once your second overlord pops. You have to know when to drone, when to expect aggression and deal with it, when to take your gasses, when to take your 3rd and upgrade.
I agree that cheesy builds like that will help a player to improve his early-game mechanics, and relying on them will help them perfect those mechanics (especially since their games will generally end shortly after the first attack, for better or for worse). However, all it's really doing is teaching by rote the mechanics to execute a simple build order, which pushes out the time when their mechanics fall apart completely by a few minutes instead of actually helping him to have better mechanics. And I understand that sometimes you just need to break a losing streak (which is why I provided a nice ZvT allin build in my post). But even in the situation you described, learning how to play standard would have been much more advantageous for him, as part of standard play for zerg is learning how to deal with the initial hellion harass and marine-tank followup. It's practically part of the build order. His mistake wasn't NOT trying to learn only cheesy builds, it was trying to learn the Stephano style, which is ridiculously high-level, instead of learning to play standard and building up his ability to deal with the early-game problems that arise.
Either way, this is getting off-topic and we should probably not continue this discussion in this thread. I'll be glad to edit my posts into NVM if a mod takes umbrige with me.
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This is not true at all, at the bronze / silver level picking one build and perfecting to it can be very helpful as a learning tool. Everyone knows that the All-In's will not win you games forever however it does many things to help lower players.
Anything is viable in bronze/silver, I don't think he was talking about how to play bronze/silver. Perfecting any build is a good way to get ladder wins, but it definitely doesn't make you a better player, particularly being a cheesy one. There's some people who think cheesing is a good way for low level players to get better, which is fine, really just playing enough games will get you to masters quickly. But it doesn't make you better as a whole player to cheese a bunch. A lower level player can do anything and get better, as long as you play a good 1000 games or so you'll be masters.
1.) It helps them perfect a build instead of getting confused or trying to do 100000 different things leading to a loss
2.) Improves injects, timings, macro, and micro slowly while perfecting the build
3.) Gives them some acutal wins as lossing game after game can be crushing for any skill level, mixing in some win's wihle learning is always a good thing and provides people with some modivation to keep playing.
1. This game is about 100000 different things, and how to account for them. That's the fundamental point of SC, knowing how to scout and react upon what you see with limited information, and how to read your opponent. Perfecting a build gets you ladder wins, it doesn't make you a better player, and you'll never win a BO3 with a single build.
2. Cheesing just improves injects/timings/'macro' to the point your build works. Once your 5:00 all-in fails, people who cheese tend to have extremely bad mechanics and decision making because they have no clue what to do besides do something they memorized up to a point and throw mechanics out the window once they're winning. It definitely does not improve your macro to focus on one build or all-in, it just makes you memorize up to that 6:00 mark. Watch bitbybit prime, a code s cheeser who, when his all-in failed, got supply blocked and couldnt throw down expos at the right times like the worst of players.
3. The ladder system makes you 50%, always. Unless you are about rank 150+ in GM (who are people who just beat the ladder system), even pro players will only get 50% on the ladder. All cheesing does is make your MMR extremely unstable, and that's only because you are playing in such a low level league that something as basic as "dont get supply blocked at 30 supply" can wildy change the results of the game.
To many times I see people say to bronze / silver players ohhh you need to do this, this, this, and this while giving them a complicated standard build. What happens when you acutally watch bronze / silver players try and perform these builds, they fall apart at the seems because there other skills have not yet developed enough to execute them properly.
More realistically, Bronze/Silver need to focus on how to make control groups, learning the hotkeys, how to read the supply/minerals/minimap, how to make and rally units, and what units counter what units (yes day9 says he hates 'counter', but in bronze, it really is as simple as "make phoenix to counter mutalisks!").
It's more like Gold-Platinum where people need to start learning "Build Probe, Build Pylon, Build Probe, Build Pylon" and Platinum-Diamond where people need to start learning build orders and learning how to scout.
For example I was recently helping coach a bronze zerg player and he was trying the stehpano build type of 15 hatch 16 pool mass ling with mass upgrades, but his macro, micro, injects, and decision making was not at the place required for that build to be fully successful for him as of yet. So what was happening ? He would loose to hellions horras or hellion pushes or when a terran did push since his macro / micro wasn't there yet he wouldn't have the drone count / army to kill it.
So.... you think telling your friend to go 6 pool will help him any more than that? Your friend doesn't know how to play the game, quite frankly, as he doesnt know the UI yet, the units yet. Hellion harass, terran pushes, these are all things bronze don't need to worry about. They need to worry about how to make stuff, how supply works, et cetera.
Yes everyone should learn how to play standard and how to playout a full game however some of the more simple builds / all-ins can be used as great learning tools, the important thing to remeber is its a tool in the process of progression
Nothing wrong with learning a cheese and playing. If you are in bronze, like anyone else, you are playing to have fun, and a fun build is fun to do. But if you want to seriously improve as a player, cheesing is not a way to do it. You just memorize a build order, and then fall apart when the game goes past it, you have no idea how to scout or expand, et cetera.
Nowadays the game has advanced far enough that the standard game doesn't even start until 10 minutes.
ZvT, nowadays, Terran goes third before even making more than 10 marines or a siege tank. ZvZ, zerg go third base before lair. ZvP, zerg goes third before making a single unit really. You aren't going to know how to play a standard game at all if you are cheesing, I can guarantee that. Back a year ago, when people were learning "YOU CAN TAKE YOUR NATURAL AND SURVIVE 1 BASE ZERG ATTACKS OMG!", yea, cheese was more relevant. But today, in masters, I never see 1 base all-ins, ever. I lose more often than win against 4 gate because it's just so, damn, uncommon (as in, wow, ive never seen it on this map before, i never knew you could warp in there, or FF there, and screw things up, et cetera, but really, I dont think I've seen 4 gate in months). Even the all-ins nowadays are more refined in macro and timings, in ways that bronze/silver/diamond could never pull off simply because of lack of macro (a 6 gate that got supply blocked for 30 seconds means 30 seconds delay in push, which simply totally changes everything, everything).
If your going to stick with lower tech you better make sure you at least keep up with your upgrades in ZvT or ZvP or they will roll you before you get the chance to eventually get to bl/infetsor
I don't find upgrades that relevant, to be perfectly honest. Zerg upgrades generally don't matter, for the most part.
Against mech, roaches/lings/banes/mutas all die in the same number of shots from mech units, regardless of +3 armor or +0 armor (there are some changes, but +1 mech completely nullifies any 1 shot more durability you get from +3 armor).
Against immortals, colossi, stalkers, zealots, +1 armor at best gives 1 extra shot, but usually it doesnt, and with chrono boost and with the way P metagame goes, you'll never be ahead, much less even, on armor upgrades to weapon upgrades. Also, Zerg upgrades take 160 seconds (as does toss, but toss chronoboost attack if it's for their opening), and with the general trend that lair is bad before third in ZvP, you will never have upgrades in time. In fact, with a liberal 7:00 evo chamber, your +1 won't finish until 10:15, which is a good 15 seconds to 2 minutes after any sort of gateway push will hit you, meaning you are already dead (or less likely, held it off). With lair being late as well, you will never start +2 in time. Zerglings, hydralisks, roaches, by the time +2 is started in any realistic game, Toss will be at least +2, and by that point, upgrades in armor are pointless.
Missile attack for roaches is useful in ZvP, that is true, so a single evo is more than enough. With Aoe, FF, and zealots though, melee isn't the most useful upgrade, and definitely not a priority to get +2. It is MUCH more important to get 6 more roaches, or get infestation tech, or 2 more mutas, than it is to get upgrades. Attack on mutas, however, is quite important in ZvZ, but the focus is still on mutas, not upgrades, as you should only have 1 spire (double spire is insanely stupid).
In ZvZ, upgrades are quite useful, but it depends what's going on. It the opponent has lots of infestors, then armor isn't useful. +1 missile kills lings in 2 shots instead of 3, so that's useful in the early game. 1/0 roaches stomp 0/0 roaches, and 2/0 roaches completely own 1/1 roaches, so again, a single evo is preferable to double evo. Eventually you can get a 2nd evo in ZvZ, as roach vs roach, upgrades are quite important, but it's not king, it's just important that you have +2 missile, as you are better off maxing out, and then teching, rather than teching upgrades in lieu of more units.
For muta vs muta, carapace upgrade is king, but again, you only have 1 upgrade building, not 2 spires. For muta vs roach/ground, attack is useful, but an extra muta is actually better (having just single upgrade buildling is okay).
Upgrades are not that important for Zerg. Terran uses them due to the huge damage output on their units, and Toss use them due to huge gains (like +5 for immortals, or +4 for colossi, and due to their small number of units and high cost of robo/stargate production facilities).
In ZvT, it's actually preferable you skip upgrades in favor for more mutas - that's what mutas in zvt are known for. Zerglings get a huge benefit with +1 carapace, as it means 1 more siege tank shot to kill them, and it helps immensely against the rine/tank push off 2 base (or 3). But once terran has +1 vehicle weapons, armor becomes useless, and it doesnt matter if you are at 0 armor, or +3. Attack upgrade is not very useful, but if you have a single evo, go for it, but only after establishing a muta count. +2 attack banes kill marines better, but just having a single evo gets that job done, and it's not a priority. 3/3 is not that great for zerglings though, and adrenal is hardly useful (although as a mineral dump in lategame with lots of hatches, it can be nice to give a boost to lings, just saying you are better off getting BL/infestor tech).
So I generally only keep a single evo, and keep conservative about upgrades. I get +1 missile into +2 missile for roach vs roach (and eventually double evo ), against mech I just get +1 missile and only slow, against rine/tank I get +1 carapace and then slowly get melee upgrades, in ZvP, I get +1 missiles as soon as I confirm there's no gateway push coming and then I get a 2nd evo and max out, and for mutas, I get attack after making initial mutas, except in zvz I get armor as a priority.
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On February 01 2012 02:29 rustypipe wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2012 01:06 Vega62a wrote:On January 31 2012 00:19 Timmer wrote:
So I just started playing again, and am slowly making my way up through Silver right now. I've been pretty much focusing on strengthening a roach rush, but when my opponent puts up a good enough defense to hold my roaches off, I usually fall apart after that.
Last night I had one game where Terran held off my rush long enough and was able to come at me with a good mix of marines, marauders and thors. His one attack was pretty much a wipe, and then went on to say I was the worst they've seen in a while. It was justifiable because I had no clue what to counter with. Another strategy I'm bad against is Stalker/Sentry build.
I understand that I need to learn how to adapt with each game, but is there a pro I can watch videos of that uses a roach rush build? Or should I change my strat entirely? Also, unrelated, but is there a site I can upload my videos to even though I suck? It's generally a bad idea at any level to rely solely upon a cheesy or gimmicky build to carry you, but even moreso at the lower levels. Even if it works every time, you're going to wind up with no idea how to actually play out a standard game and get completely stuck when your MMR gets high enough. This happened to me when I played Protoss, I just DT rushed every Terran since none of them scouted or built detection, and when I hit diamond, my winrate in the matchup went from 90% to about 10%. Mr. Showtime's post should give you a good idea of some standard openings. I prefer the 15 variety (v Terran 15 hatch 15 pool 15 gas, v Protoss 15 pool 15 hatch, gas later on - never open hatch first vs protoss, as they can block or cannon it easily before lings are out) but it doesn't really matter which you use, as long as you execute it crisply. Focus on coming up with a good game plan that stretches out into the mid- and lategame, as that will give you the most practice with managing your economy, macro mechanics, and controlling large engagements, something that you will get basically no experience with with your current plan. That said, everyone needs to cheese sometimes. If you're looking for a good roach rush, consider a ling/baneling/roach rush (I think it was originally Leenock's, but Sheth uses it in the link I'm posting), which aTnCloud claims is an autowin against any terran who doesn't have at least one tank out. http://www.twitch.tv/liquidsheth/b/306952170 This is not true at all, at the bronze / silver level picking one build and perfecting to it can be very helpful as a learning tool. Everyone knows that the All-In's will not win you games forever however it does many things to help lower players. 1.) It helps them perfect a build instead of getting confused or trying to do 100000 different things leading to a loss 2.) Improves injects, timings, macro, and micro slowly while perfecting the build 3.) Gives them some acutal wins as lossing game after game can be crushing for any skill level, mixing in some win's wihle learning is always a good thing and provides people with some modivation to keep playing. To many times I see people say to bronze / silver players ohhh you need to do this, this, this, and this while giving them a complicated standard build. What happens when you acutally watch bronze / silver players try and perform these builds, they fall apart at the seems because there other skills have not yet developed enough to execute them properly. For example I was recently helping coach a bronze zerg player and he was trying the stehpano build type of 15 hatch 16 pool mass ling with mass upgrades, but his macro, micro, injects, and decision making was not at the place required for that build to be fully successful for him as of yet. So what was happening ? He would loose to hellions horras or hellion pushes or when a terran did push since his macro / micro wasn't there yet he wouldn't have the drone count / army to kill it. Yes everyone should learn how to play standard and how to playout a full game however some of the more simple builds / all-ins can be used as great learning tools, the important thing to remeber is its a tool in the process of progression
I, too, disagree with the notion that all-inning is a good way to learn -- at least as Z. I went up to plat in the limited time I have to play mostly by all-inning and playing a hyper-aggressive style. For example, I picked up the 7RR after about 5 games and could still probably win a decent amount with it (and still lose to it sometimes, for that matter). I figured I could go up the ladder as fast as possible with all-ins, brag about being in diamond or whatever, and then branch out to a more standard play style. Wrong. I hit plat and while I have no doubt all-inning every game would probably have kept me moving up the ladder, I resolved to play standard . . . and ended up back in gold. Now I'm trying to rebuild my game and erase all the tendencies / habits I nurtured while playing to win in the first 10 minutes. And my skills at pulling off a sharp all-in do little to help me when I'm trying to play reactionary macro-first because all the cues, situations, and goals are different.
It's true that at lower levels there's a lot to think about, and without good mechanics everything becomes harder, but practicing a specific, rote set of mechanics doesn't help. I agree that a lot of advice for bronze/silver players is shit because it's far too complicated and precise for their needs. Still, better to flail around in bronze trying to nail down injects, ovie production, and droning as much as possible, while getting beat by ridiculous cheeses/ll-ins than be the one cheesing and then end up trying to learn mechanics against better players. IMO, the aggression at lower levels is in some ways worse than at higher levels (which I judge mostly from what I see on streams, etc., obviously), because instead of trying to land a knockout blow in the context of actually boxing, lower-level opponents just throw wild haymakers until someone's on the floor. If you're a much better player, you'll laugh off the wild cheeses, but if you're still learning you'll get your clock cleaned as often as not. Still better to learn how to box and take your licks than give in to the urge to join the sucker-punch haymaker-fest (which I did).
To be good at Z, you have to scout well, drone hard until the mid-game, and identify when/how to fight based on what your opponent is trying to do -- things that all-ins neglect. So while you're practicing mechanics with all-ins, you're doing it under exactly the wrong conditions. It's true you should have a goal and practice getting there, but Zerg goals should be things like figure out how to survive long enough to get two bases fully saturated, making only enough units/defenses to survive until then. What you learn from all-inning is how to play T or P.
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On February 01 2012 01:35 Belial88 wrote:
In ZvP, there's literally nothing Toss can do to a Zerg if the game is FFE vs fast third, and then zerg just goes pure roach/ling 200/200. Even with colossi and forcefields, it'll just crush the Toss (actually, especially if he has colossi).
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roach/ling is a horrible 200/200 composition and you will die to any robo-based builds. you should never be able to beat a basic sentry-colossus ball with pure roach/ling unless the protoss is awful.
the whole point of roach-ling in zvp is to abuse mobility, stop 2-base all-ins, and prevent quick-thirds. you never want to stick on it for awhile as you want to (safely) get your infestor/broodlord composition out ASAP.
On January 31 2012 19:41 Belial88 wrote:
^ Macro heavy builds are usually the safest builds in general.
ZvZ, hatch first 14h/15p/14g. You can also go something like 14p16g15h if you are scared of 10 pools (you can hold any 6-8 pool with hatch first, so it's quite safe)
this is laughable. why on earth would anyone 6-8p if it didn't work against the greediest opening in ZvZ?
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On February 01 2012 03:56 HelloSon wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2012 19:41 Belial88 wrote:
^ Macro heavy builds are usually the safest builds in general.
ZvZ, hatch first 14h/15p/14g. You can also go something like 14p16g15h if you are scared of 10 pools (you can hold any 6-8 pool with hatch first, so it's quite safe) this is laughable. why on earth would anyone 6-8p if it didn't work against the greediest opening in ZvZ?
O rly!?
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=295586
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On February 01 2012 03:56 HelloSon wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2012 01:35 Belial88 wrote:
In ZvP, there's literally nothing Toss can do to a Zerg if the game is FFE vs fast third, and then zerg just goes pure roach/ling 200/200. Even with colossi and forcefields, it'll just crush the Toss (actually, especially if he has colossi).
. roach/ling is a horrible 200/200 composition and you will die to any robo-based builds. you should never be able to beat a basic sentry-colossus ball with pure roach/ling unless the protoss is awful. the whole point of roach-ling in zvp is to abuse mobility, stop 2-base all-ins, and prevent quick-thirds. you never want to stick on it for awhile as you want to (safely) get your infestor/broodlord composition out ASAP. Show nested quote +On January 31 2012 19:41 Belial88 wrote:
^ Macro heavy builds are usually the safest builds in general.
ZvZ, hatch first 14h/15p/14g. You can also go something like 14p16g15h if you are scared of 10 pools (you can hold any 6-8 pool with hatch first, so it's quite safe)
this is laughable. why on earth would anyone 6-8p if it didn't work against the greediest opening in ZvZ?
Because only good zergs can really hold a 6-8 pool and live before spawning pool finishes. This is assuming of course that the zerg 6-8 pooling actually controls his lings and doesn't just A move because then its really really easy lol.
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People don't know how to hold them or they panic and make a mistake
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On February 01 2012 03:37 zeek0us wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2012 02:29 rustypipe wrote:On January 31 2012 01:06 Vega62a wrote:On January 31 2012 00:19 Timmer wrote:
So I just started playing again, and am slowly making my way up through Silver right now. I've been pretty much focusing on strengthening a roach rush, but when my opponent puts up a good enough defense to hold my roaches off, I usually fall apart after that.
Last night I had one game where Terran held off my rush long enough and was able to come at me with a good mix of marines, marauders and thors. His one attack was pretty much a wipe, and then went on to say I was the worst they've seen in a while. It was justifiable because I had no clue what to counter with. Another strategy I'm bad against is Stalker/Sentry build.
I understand that I need to learn how to adapt with each game, but is there a pro I can watch videos of that uses a roach rush build? Or should I change my strat entirely? Also, unrelated, but is there a site I can upload my videos to even though I suck? It's generally a bad idea at any level to rely solely upon a cheesy or gimmicky build to carry you, but even moreso at the lower levels. Even if it works every time, you're going to wind up with no idea how to actually play out a standard game and get completely stuck when your MMR gets high enough. This happened to me when I played Protoss, I just DT rushed every Terran since none of them scouted or built detection, and when I hit diamond, my winrate in the matchup went from 90% to about 10%. Mr. Showtime's post should give you a good idea of some standard openings. I prefer the 15 variety (v Terran 15 hatch 15 pool 15 gas, v Protoss 15 pool 15 hatch, gas later on - never open hatch first vs protoss, as they can block or cannon it easily before lings are out) but it doesn't really matter which you use, as long as you execute it crisply. Focus on coming up with a good game plan that stretches out into the mid- and lategame, as that will give you the most practice with managing your economy, macro mechanics, and controlling large engagements, something that you will get basically no experience with with your current plan. That said, everyone needs to cheese sometimes. If you're looking for a good roach rush, consider a ling/baneling/roach rush (I think it was originally Leenock's, but Sheth uses it in the link I'm posting), which aTnCloud claims is an autowin against any terran who doesn't have at least one tank out. http://www.twitch.tv/liquidsheth/b/306952170 This is not true at all, at the bronze / silver level picking one build and perfecting to it can be very helpful as a learning tool. Everyone knows that the All-In's will not win you games forever however it does many things to help lower players. 1.) It helps them perfect a build instead of getting confused or trying to do 100000 different things leading to a loss 2.) Improves injects, timings, macro, and micro slowly while perfecting the build 3.) Gives them some acutal wins as lossing game after game can be crushing for any skill level, mixing in some win's wihle learning is always a good thing and provides people with some modivation to keep playing. To many times I see people say to bronze / silver players ohhh you need to do this, this, this, and this while giving them a complicated standard build. What happens when you acutally watch bronze / silver players try and perform these builds, they fall apart at the seems because there other skills have not yet developed enough to execute them properly. For example I was recently helping coach a bronze zerg player and he was trying the stehpano build type of 15 hatch 16 pool mass ling with mass upgrades, but his macro, micro, injects, and decision making was not at the place required for that build to be fully successful for him as of yet. So what was happening ? He would loose to hellions horras or hellion pushes or when a terran did push since his macro / micro wasn't there yet he wouldn't have the drone count / army to kill it. Yes everyone should learn how to play standard and how to playout a full game however some of the more simple builds / all-ins can be used as great learning tools, the important thing to remeber is its a tool in the process of progression I, too, disagree with the notion that all-inning is a good way to learn -- at least as Z. I went up to plat in the limited time I have to play mostly by all-inning and playing a hyper-aggressive style. For example, I picked up the 7RR after about 5 games and could still probably win a decent amount with it (and still lose to it sometimes, for that matter). I figured I could go up the ladder as fast as possible with all-ins, brag about being in diamond or whatever, and then branch out to a more standard play style. Wrong. I hit plat and while I have no doubt all-inning every game would probably have kept me moving up the ladder, I resolved to play standard . . . and ended up back in gold. Now I'm trying to rebuild my game and erase all the tendencies / habits I nurtured while playing to win in the first 10 minutes. And my skills at pulling off a sharp all-in do little to help me when I'm trying to play reactionary macro-first because all the cues, situations, and goals are different. It's true that at lower levels there's a lot to think about, and without good mechanics everything becomes harder, but practicing a specific, rote set of mechanics doesn't help. I agree that a lot of advice for bronze/silver players is shit because it's far too complicated and precise for their needs. Still, better to flail around in bronze trying to nail down injects, ovie production, and droning as much as possible, while getting beat by ridiculous cheeses/ll-ins than be the one cheesing and then end up trying to learn mechanics against better players. IMO, the aggression at lower levels is in some ways worse than at higher levels (which I judge mostly from what I see on streams, etc., obviously), because instead of trying to land a knockout blow in the context of actually boxing, lower-level opponents just throw wild haymakers until someone's on the floor. If you're a much better player, you'll laugh off the wild cheeses, but if you're still learning you'll get your clock cleaned as often as not. Still better to learn how to box and take your licks than give in to the urge to join the sucker-punch haymaker-fest (which I did). To be good at Z, you have to scout well, drone hard until the mid-game, and identify when/how to fight based on what your opponent is trying to do -- things that all-ins neglect. So while you're practicing mechanics with all-ins, you're doing it under exactly the wrong conditions. It's true you should have a goal and practice getting there, but Zerg goals should be things like figure out how to survive long enough to get two bases fully saturated, making only enough units/defenses to survive until then. What you learn from all-inning is how to play T or P.
You are missing the point, When I say its used as a learning tool, its used for a short period to build up confidence, enjoy the game a little, and stem further play instead of getting your head smashed in 99% of time trying to do 100 things your not ready for. You forget most bronze players struggel with the SIMPLE things like injects, hot keys, macro. These things all get improved with a simple build. Don't even for a SECOND tell me you learned nothing and gained nothing from your cheese fest attempt to Diamond, giving someone an all-in build and telling them to run with it to masters is like giving someone a screwdriver and telling them to build a house with it...... however some would try I guess
Again This is not the point i'm driving at, what i'm driving at is a build much like TangSC's roach ling heavy aggression into econ build in ZvT as an example. Its a build that has a all-in short or an aggressive stance with the ability to fall back on in the event it fails. I'm not talking a 6 pool, and its not to be used for LONG lenghts of time or as your only option. Its used to build on early skills so later you can go into a more standard build.
I seriously challenge you to take a low level bronze zerg and try to teach him standard, you will be yelling into your mic so much the poor guy wouldn't know wtf to do next, not to mention get stupidly frustrated. The guy will be so busy trying to listen to what your telling him to do he won't be absorbing the game or whats going on at all. This is all becuase the recation time and machanics are just not there yet. Everything is a building process and I guess everyone has there own way of doing things. All i'm saying is you have to crawl before you can walk or run.
I do seriously challenge you to try it your way on a bronze player and see how far he gets before he gives up
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On February 01 2012 03:56 HelloSon wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2012 01:35 Belial88 wrote:
In ZvP, there's literally nothing Toss can do to a Zerg if the game is FFE vs fast third, and then zerg just goes pure roach/ling 200/200. Even with colossi and forcefields, it'll just crush the Toss (actually, especially if he has colossi).
. roach/ling is a horrible 200/200 composition and you will die to any robo-based builds. you should never be able to beat a basic sentry-colossus ball with pure roach/ling unless the protoss is awful. the whole point of roach-ling in zvp is to abuse mobility, stop 2-base all-ins, and prevent quick-thirds. you never want to stick on it for awhile as you want to (safely) get your infestor/broodlord composition out ASAP. Show nested quote +On January 31 2012 19:41 Belial88 wrote:
^ Macro heavy builds are usually the safest builds in general.
ZvZ, hatch first 14h/15p/14g. You can also go something like 14p16g15h if you are scared of 10 pools (you can hold any 6-8 pool with hatch first, so it's quite safe)
this is laughable. why on earth would anyone 6-8p if it didn't work against the greediest opening in ZvZ?
lol @ thinking protoss can do nothing vs max roachling. Not sure how bronze league works but collosus sentry (and stalker most likely) does not lose to roach ling
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On February 01 2012 04:35 rustypipe wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2012 03:37 zeek0us wrote:On February 01 2012 02:29 rustypipe wrote:On January 31 2012 01:06 Vega62a wrote:On January 31 2012 00:19 Timmer wrote:
So I just started playing again, and am slowly making my way up through Silver right now. I've been pretty much focusing on strengthening a roach rush, but when my opponent puts up a good enough defense to hold my roaches off, I usually fall apart after that.
Last night I had one game where Terran held off my rush long enough and was able to come at me with a good mix of marines, marauders and thors. His one attack was pretty much a wipe, and then went on to say I was the worst they've seen in a while. It was justifiable because I had no clue what to counter with. Another strategy I'm bad against is Stalker/Sentry build.
I understand that I need to learn how to adapt with each game, but is there a pro I can watch videos of that uses a roach rush build? Or should I change my strat entirely? Also, unrelated, but is there a site I can upload my videos to even though I suck? It's generally a bad idea at any level to rely solely upon a cheesy or gimmicky build to carry you, but even moreso at the lower levels. Even if it works every time, you're going to wind up with no idea how to actually play out a standard game and get completely stuck when your MMR gets high enough. This happened to me when I played Protoss, I just DT rushed every Terran since none of them scouted or built detection, and when I hit diamond, my winrate in the matchup went from 90% to about 10%. Mr. Showtime's post should give you a good idea of some standard openings. I prefer the 15 variety (v Terran 15 hatch 15 pool 15 gas, v Protoss 15 pool 15 hatch, gas later on - never open hatch first vs protoss, as they can block or cannon it easily before lings are out) but it doesn't really matter which you use, as long as you execute it crisply. Focus on coming up with a good game plan that stretches out into the mid- and lategame, as that will give you the most practice with managing your economy, macro mechanics, and controlling large engagements, something that you will get basically no experience with with your current plan. That said, everyone needs to cheese sometimes. If you're looking for a good roach rush, consider a ling/baneling/roach rush (I think it was originally Leenock's, but Sheth uses it in the link I'm posting), which aTnCloud claims is an autowin against any terran who doesn't have at least one tank out. http://www.twitch.tv/liquidsheth/b/306952170 This is not true at all, at the bronze / silver level picking one build and perfecting to it can be very helpful as a learning tool. Everyone knows that the All-In's will not win you games forever however it does many things to help lower players. 1.) It helps them perfect a build instead of getting confused or trying to do 100000 different things leading to a loss 2.) Improves injects, timings, macro, and micro slowly while perfecting the build 3.) Gives them some acutal wins as lossing game after game can be crushing for any skill level, mixing in some win's wihle learning is always a good thing and provides people with some modivation to keep playing. To many times I see people say to bronze / silver players ohhh you need to do this, this, this, and this while giving them a complicated standard build. What happens when you acutally watch bronze / silver players try and perform these builds, they fall apart at the seems because there other skills have not yet developed enough to execute them properly. For example I was recently helping coach a bronze zerg player and he was trying the stehpano build type of 15 hatch 16 pool mass ling with mass upgrades, but his macro, micro, injects, and decision making was not at the place required for that build to be fully successful for him as of yet. So what was happening ? He would loose to hellions horras or hellion pushes or when a terran did push since his macro / micro wasn't there yet he wouldn't have the drone count / army to kill it. Yes everyone should learn how to play standard and how to playout a full game however some of the more simple builds / all-ins can be used as great learning tools, the important thing to remeber is its a tool in the process of progression I, too, disagree with the notion that all-inning is a good way to learn -- at least as Z. I went up to plat in the limited time I have to play mostly by all-inning and playing a hyper-aggressive style. For example, I picked up the 7RR after about 5 games and could still probably win a decent amount with it (and still lose to it sometimes, for that matter). I figured I could go up the ladder as fast as possible with all-ins, brag about being in diamond or whatever, and then branch out to a more standard play style. Wrong. I hit plat and while I have no doubt all-inning every game would probably have kept me moving up the ladder, I resolved to play standard . . . and ended up back in gold. Now I'm trying to rebuild my game and erase all the tendencies / habits I nurtured while playing to win in the first 10 minutes. And my skills at pulling off a sharp all-in do little to help me when I'm trying to play reactionary macro-first because all the cues, situations, and goals are different. It's true that at lower levels there's a lot to think about, and without good mechanics everything becomes harder, but practicing a specific, rote set of mechanics doesn't help. I agree that a lot of advice for bronze/silver players is shit because it's far too complicated and precise for their needs. Still, better to flail around in bronze trying to nail down injects, ovie production, and droning as much as possible, while getting beat by ridiculous cheeses/ll-ins than be the one cheesing and then end up trying to learn mechanics against better players. IMO, the aggression at lower levels is in some ways worse than at higher levels (which I judge mostly from what I see on streams, etc., obviously), because instead of trying to land a knockout blow in the context of actually boxing, lower-level opponents just throw wild haymakers until someone's on the floor. If you're a much better player, you'll laugh off the wild cheeses, but if you're still learning you'll get your clock cleaned as often as not. Still better to learn how to box and take your licks than give in to the urge to join the sucker-punch haymaker-fest (which I did). To be good at Z, you have to scout well, drone hard until the mid-game, and identify when/how to fight based on what your opponent is trying to do -- things that all-ins neglect. So while you're practicing mechanics with all-ins, you're doing it under exactly the wrong conditions. It's true you should have a goal and practice getting there, but Zerg goals should be things like figure out how to survive long enough to get two bases fully saturated, making only enough units/defenses to survive until then. What you learn from all-inning is how to play T or P. You are missing the point, When I say its used as a learning tool, its used for a short period to build up confidence, enjoy the game a little, and stem further play instead of getting your head smashed in 99% of time trying to do 100 things your not ready for. You forget most bronze players struggel with the SIMPLE things like injects, hot keys, macro. These things all get improved with a simple build. Don't even for a SECOND tell me you learned nothing and gained nothing from your cheese fest attempt to Diamond, giving someone an all-in build and telling them to run with it to masters is like giving someone a screwdriver and telling them to build a house with it...... however some would try I guess Again This is not the point i'm driving at, what i'm driving at is a build much like TangSC's roach ling heavy aggression into econ build in ZvT as an example. Its a build that has a all-in short or an aggressive stance with the ability to fall back on in the event it fails. I'm not talking a 6 pool, and its not to be used for LONG lenghts of time or as your only option. Its used to build on early skills so later you can go into a more standard build. I seriously challenge you to take a low level bronze zerg and try to teach him standard, you will be yelling into your mic so much the poor guy wouldn't know wtf to do next, not to mention get stupidly frustrated. The guy will be so busy trying to listen to what your telling him to do he won't be absorbing the game or whats going on at all. This is all becuase the recation time and machanics are just not there yet. Everything is a building process and I guess everyone has there own way of doing things. All i'm saying is you have to crawl before you can walk or run. I do seriously challenge you to try it your way on a bronze player and see how far he gets before he gives up
My point is just that bronze/silver/gold players aren't retards -- they are most certainly not as savvy to the nuances of the game as higher level players, but there's a tendancy to either dump wayyy too much on them (i.e. "here's what I have to do to beat master's opponents") or give them too little credit ("just 6 pool for awhile"). I don't mean to sound combative since I think you make a reasonable point -- it is a game after all, and cheesing (and winning) is fun. So there's a place for such play. I just think it works against actually "getting better at the game." And what I'm saying is more general ruminations of a Zerg who took the wrong road than a direct disagreement with the particular point you were making. On that score, you're absolutely right -- knowing how to all-in is part of the game and every player should at least be aware of how to do it so as to have that card in the deck.
When I took my humiliating bust down to gold, it fully crystallized the notion that I had gotten to plat in the first place by learning to beat bad players. What I wished I had done (and am trying to do now) is get better at the game. And there's a very distinct difference between the two. The first option will net you more wins immediately and likely take you farther faster, since ladder pits you against relatively equal opponents and all-ins tend to favor the aggressor most of the time at low levels. The second option will result in more frustration at first and likely a much steeper learning curve, but will take you longer over time and help keep you where you want to be when you get there.
One other thing that bugs me about lots of advice I see is that bronze players aren't all the incompetent half-wits they're often made out to be. Sure, a lot of SC comes from simply playing games and if you're new to the game you're likely in bronze, but I feel like there's a marked lack of advice out there for how to properly cultivate a proto high-level mentality from the start. That is to say, how to think like a better player within the confines of a) having weaker mechanics and b) playing against players who won't come at you like one GM would come at another. The general concepts are certainly there -- build workers, watch your supply, scout hard, be as greedy as you can, etc. But those generalities have a very complicated relationship with the moment-to-moment events in a game. Things that are subconscious or automatic to good players are easy to forget at first. So training to make the automatic stuff automatic ASAP makes the most sense IMO. It's just hard for good players to relay that knowledge. It's like a theoretical physicist trying to explain calculus to a high school student --once it becomes second nature to you, it's hard to relate to the stumbling blocks in understanding that bog down a beginner.
I wish I'd know in bronze how easy it is to beat a guy with a shitty econ as long as you withstand his first attack (or conversely, to expand 4 times and crush/outlast his 20 minute 1 base all-in). Instead I either tried to win with my own 'first attack' or lived in such fear of his that I was perpetually underdroned when it came and couldn't recover. Pulling off successful all-ins certainly helped me feel good about myself, as well as teaching me how a sharply-executed strategy could work, but outside the confines of my predetermined build, I was lost. I wish I'd had some coaching or focused advice (kind of like the vids Apollo posted) that showed how good macro/scouting crushed bronze garbage without stooping to its level.
In short, I think the best way to get better -- even if, as you rightly point out, it's a longer, more frustrating road -- is to force yourself to excel at the basics before anything else. If you sat in bronze working on macro, scouting, and learning how to defend shitty one base play and punish turtles while building as many drones as you can (many fewer in bronze than in master's to be sure), you'd breeze up to legitimate (i.e. permanent without cheesing every game) diamond well before the guy who tries to take the easy road like I did.
So I guess the take home message for all lower-level Zergs hoping to get better is this: it will be harder for you than it is for T and P at first, but if you stick it out and ask questions/take advice on doing things the "right way", it will pay off higher dividends int he end. And for high-level players giving advice, try to to key in on the basics that apply to bronze vs. bronze games and not expect every noob to be able to macro like Ret right off the bat.
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roach/ling is a horrible 200/200 composition and you will die to any robo-based builds. you should never be able to beat a basic sentry-colossus ball with pure roach/ling unless the protoss is awful.
the whole point of roach-ling in zvp is to abuse mobility, stop 2-base all-ins, and prevent quick-thirds. you never want to stick on it for awhile as you want to (safely) get your infestor/broodlord composition out ASAP.
No... I disagree. Yes, on paper, roach/ling may sound horrible against colossi/immortal/archon, but in a real game at high level play, there's simply no way Toss will be able to match 200/200 roach ling on 2 base, no matter what composition they go. For example, blink stalkers get owned by infestors, but if Toss goes 7 gate blink, and Zerg goes infestors (assuming standard fast third of course), the Zerg will just autolose , and even when the infestors get fielded, the zerg army will simply be too small to deal with it (as evidenced in Monster vs Seed GSL Code A S1 2012). There's just no protoss army at 120 supply that can beat mass roaches, really, by the 12 minute mark.
And I'd be more than willing to show you some recent plays of myself in Masters where I handidly beat people who open 2 base colossi by going pure ling/roach and just denying their third for enough time to make my own deathball of BL/Infestor after maxing out on roach/ling, or simply straight up killing Toss.
If toss opens 2 base colossi, they'll have much lower supply than if they went gateway tech or immortal only, and they'll have a pitifully small army. As in maybe 2 colossi, 10 stalkers, small kind of army.
There's a reason why in pro play, you never see 2 base colossi, or zerg get infestors before maxing out, or terran getting thors before third (besides mech), et cetera. Teching hard on 2 base or too early or before maxing out is just generally, a bad idea.
the whole point of roach-ling in zvp is to abuse mobility, stop 2-base all-ins, and prevent quick-thirds. you never want to stick on it for awhile as you want to (safely) get your infestor/broodlord composition out ASAP.
Right... exactly... Once you've denied the Toss third, you just max out on roach/ling on 4 bases and just a-move over and over and over on the Toss and they'll die, no matter what they have. Of course, you eventually want to transition out of it, but if you deny the Toss third long enough, eventually they are so far behind and starved that mass roach/ling will be all you need to end the game. Also, just as going infestors before maxing is a bad idea, going BL/Infestor too quickly will get you killed as well. Toss can easily go mass gateway push on 3 base before your bl/infestor is out, and will roflstomp you.
As a solid rule, I believe you should never go hive until you have engaged Toss with a t2 army and done significant damage, or have a huge lead obtained in some other way (ie took a fast third and held gateway pressure, have the gold, deflected DT/SG openers, etc).
Because only good zergs can really hold a 6-8 pool and live before spawning pool finishes. This is assuming of course that the zerg 6-8 pooling actually controls his lings and doesn't just A move because then its really really easy lol.
I guess you aren't a fan of that guide that was posted a few replies up, but I've found that general ladder rank is a good indication of how equal someone is with how they execute a 6 pool and how well they can defend against a 6 pool. A Silver vs a Silver, a Diamond vs a Diamond, a GM vs a GM, the hatch firster will generally always win. This is because the micro always favors the hatch first player. Yes, a GM doing a 6 pool to a Diamond will always win, despite the fact that Hatch first is a BO win against 6 pool, but this is because the skill difference is so large that it makes up for this.
In short, if you are 6 pooled on ladder, you should be able to easily deal with it. It's so consistent how league ranking matches up with how good someone can execute a 6 pool. Once you are at the higher levels of play, masters+, or even pro play, 6 pool just isn't even viable, ever.
You are missing the point, When I say its used as a learning tool, its used for a short period to build up confidence, enjoy the game a little, and stem further play instead of getting your head smashed in 99% of time trying to do 100 things your not ready for. You forget most bronze players struggel with the SIMPLE things like injects, hot keys, macro. These things all get improved with a simple build. Don't even for a SECOND tell me you learned nothing and gained nothing from your cheese fest attempt to Diamond, giving someone an all-in build and telling them to run with it to masters is like giving someone a screwdriver and telling them to build a house with it...... however some would try I guess
No... I think you are the one missing the point. We all know that at the lower levels of play, "Anything is Viable". If you are anywhere below diamond, just playing more games will increase your skill by a ton. Cheesing is such a ridiculous way to 'build up confidence' - you won't have any confidence once your cheese is stopped 100% of the time because people aren't that stupid at your MMR level anymore, and suddenly you lose every single game because your cheese fails, and you have no idea how to play a game beyond your memorized 6:00 build order.
Bronze players don't need to focus on injects, or macro. They need to focus on how to make a hotkey, what are the hotkeys to make units, how to control the screen, learning the capabilities of units, like what stim does, and how to lift a building up. Your speel about how bronze players should cheese is ridiculous, at that level of play, ANYTHING is viable, and doing any memorized build order will win you games way beyond bronze. It's just such a low level of play, that absolutely anything is viable, and people will get better just by playing more games.
Also, you seem to forget how ladder works - 50% wins and losses. Even the best masters players only get 50% win rate. It's not like because someone sucks, they are going to lose more than 50% of the time; no, the ladder will take care of them, they will always have about 50-55% win rate.
At bronze, to platinum, even diamond, just playing more games improves you as a player. Be it you cheesed your way, or you actually played solid games, doesn't matter. It's such a low level of play that anything is viable, and people are rapidly learning how to get better. I guarantee anyone who plays 1,000 games will be diamond. It's nothing special, diamond isn't full of people who cheesed their way there, they just played enough games. I would argue that cheesing your way to diamond actually hurts more than helps, as many ex-cheesers have posted and said many times on this forum, but again, it's such a low level of play that getting to diamond doesn't really mean anything. It means you know how the game works. Good luck on anyone who can cheese their way to masters.
lol @ thinking protoss can do nothing vs max roachling. Not sure how bronze league works but collosus sentry (and stalker most likely) does not lose to roach ling
You seem to be missing the point, but you never see pro players play a standard macro game and get anything but roach/ling, maybe hydralisks or corruptors, before hitting 200/200 in ZvP. I don't know what you think is so 'lol', and frankly it's quite insulting. But you will never see pro players get infestors before maxing out (assuming standard macro play, not 2 base timings that are semi all-in). The only exception to Zergs staying low tier until hitting 200/200 in ZvP, is mutas, but even then, mutas aren't exactly that high up on the tech tree. Even nowadays most zergs opt to avoid even hydralisks, and just stay on pure roach/ling until 200/200 in ZvP (unless they go mutas, which is the metagame trend right now - but again, they only make roach/ling/mutalisk until 200/200).
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Basically, more roach/ling (maybe even hydras) is always better than getting infestors, before 200/200 supply, in all the match-ups. Mutas is a different story, but basically when going mutas you aren't teching any higher anytime soon (or essentially, before 200/200).
If your going to stick with lower tech you better make sure you at least keep up with your upgrades in ZvT or ZvP or they will roll you before you get the chance to eventually get to bl/infetsor
I really disagree.
As I outlined in that long post, there are some, crucial upgrades. +1 carapace against tanks before +1 vehicle weapons is out (really that's the only one). Having a single evo getting +1 melee or +1 missile is never a bad idea, and in ZvZ for roaches, upgrades are very important.
But think about it. What are you accomplishing, and what are you giving up, when upgrading?
In ZvT, upgrading zergling carapace anywhere past +1 won't give any benefit against tanks. It will give a minor benefit against marines (1 more hit), but the gas is better spent on more mutas, and getting a faster hive (and you dont exactly get hive quickly in ZvT when playing muta). +1 melee is okay, but mutas are the real damage dealer against the tanks, and banelings are the damage dealer against marines, and melee upgrades aren't that useful against marines (I believe +2 makes a difference against combat shield, I don't recall exact math, but given a terran opponent who is upgrading, it isn't useful).
In ZvP, +1 missile is useful, and +1 melee is only useful is Toss is going pure stalker (in which case you shouldn't be going pure ling anyways, your real damage dealers are the roaches or infestors or mutas, et cetera). +1 carapace is really quite useless - yes, zealot vs zergling is an issue, but protoss always starts forge before evo chamber in standard play, and with sentries and stalkers, there's more to the point. You will never get +1 carapace in time when going fast third to deal with +1 weapons, as 7:00 evo means 10:05 upgrade completion time at the very quickest (and 7:00 evo is quite quick, most dont get it that early). Once toss has a +1 ugprade advantage, it's simply not worth getting anymore carapace upgrades, as +2 and +1 carapace is just the same as +0 carapace.
This also isn't to mention that your priority in ZvP, is either:
A) Maxing out on 200/200, as zerg production on 3 base will way outpace Protoss production, meaning you are quickly and quickly just getting a much, much stronger army than the Toss has as your supply climbs much quicker and your econ advantage quickly translates to army (which is why maxing out on roachling is so powerful in ZvP and nothing 2 base Toss can do against it, although they might be able to secure their third, they can never make a 2 base army that will overcome 200/200 roach/ling, and by the time their 3 base econ kicks in, you have been maxed for a while and now started to tech).
B) Making mutas, to which gas is wayyyy better spent on more mutas, muta upgrades, and eventually the hive tech transition.
This also isn't to mention, that getting Hive, is wayyyyy preferable to +1 carapace, when you get down to it.
Zerg maxes out at 200/200 very quickly. I'm not saying "upgrades are bad" or "dont upgrade". But the key advantage zerg has, is maxing quickly. I believe Zerg is best played by maxing out, and once maxed, then you quickly shift into tech. Once you are maxed, yea, definitely, get double evos going, get the infestors, get the hive. But upgrading, or getting infestation/hive tech anytime before 200/200, imo, is a bad idea in ZvT/ZvP.
Even when at 200/200 though, what's better - getting +1/+1, which makes no actual difference to any hit/kill equations against a Toss/T who already has a +2 advantage upgrade? Or starting up the Hive? It's a no brainer.
Of course, you CAN lose if you stay 0/0 to an opponent who is upgrading heavily, but then, you are missing the point.
Before maxing out, just have a single evo. Get Melee, get missile, get carapace in ZvT if it's rine/tank. But against deathball play, or against mech, or in general against Protoss, carapace is actually almost a useless upgrade, and far overshadowed by hive or infestors or just maxing out.
Once you are maxed out though, yea, get the double evos, for sure. Catch up in upgrades. I'm just saying in a real game scenario, when the opponent is on 2 base, you are best served maxing out to deny the Toss 3rd (or getting more mutas in the case of muta play), and THEN teching - not the other way around.
I mean, just watch pro games, don't listen to me. You never see Zergs ever get infestors in vT/vP before 200/200. You never see hive tech started before 200/200 and Zerg is well past 3 bases. You just don't see it in high level play.
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a Sen build as far as I know, is 14 gas 14 pool. It is interesting because you will have 100 gas at around the same time as your pool finish, so that you can make speed with the 100 gas.
Regarding stephano's piece of advice, in ZvZ, this build can bring you to either speedling expand (if you remove drones from gas after the initial 100 gas), or baneling (if you leave the drones) or a mix (if you leave only 1 or 2 drones in gas).
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From what I see, is it 10OL, 14gas, 13pool then 2 drones into queen speed and lings without a second OL??
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On February 01 2012 22:35 Sadform wrote:From what I see, is it 10OL, 14gas, 13pool then 2 drones into queen speed and lings without a second OL??
I have doubts concerning the quality of the previous link. More standard would be 9 overlod, 14 gas, 14 pool, drone to 15, 15 overlord, then depending on what you want to do, zerglings or drones. (and speed @100 gas).
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On February 01 2012 22:05 Macpo wrote:a Sen build as far as I know, is 14 gas 14 pool. It is interesting because you will have 100 gas at around the same time as your pool finish, so that you can make speed with the 100 gas. Regarding stephano's piece of advice, in ZvZ, this build can bring you to either speedling expand (if you remove drones from gas after the initial 100 gas), or baneling (if you leave the drones) or a mix (if you leave only 1 or 2 drones in gas).
so basically the build i use since August 2010^^
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On January 30 2012 23:37 Vega62a wrote:
Howdy all,
I was watching the Sheth replay pack, and noticed that he sometimes grabs a macro hatch v Terran on maps like TDA where it's tough to hold a quick 3rd. I started doing that on all maps, and feel a lot more comfortable with it than wtih an early 3rd. However, I recognize to a degree that this is me being lazy and not figuring out how to properly hold a 3rd when it's holdable. It also takes some of the impetus off of me for deciding when to drone, which is again me being lazy - i can drone to 2 base saturation (or slight oversaturation), THEN get units, THEN take my 3rd, and saturate it with one easy round of drones off of 3 injected hatches + a few transfers.
So my question for any pros or really high-level players out there is this - when do you typically opt for a macro hatch, and when do you try to secure your third instead?
So, before I went ahead and threw this thread off-track, I asked this question, and I think I answered it myself with Idra's stream - right now he's playing a ZvT against some Korean who's containing him with about 10 hellions. As soon as he knew that was what was coming, (not sure when this was, I didn't catch the very start of the game so I'll edit this when I see the VOD) he threw down his macro hatch so that he could produce units and drone while he was being contained. So I think the broad answer to my question is "throw down a macro hatch whenever you feel like you can't defend a 3rd." And maybe with prejudice, since it's better to not try to defend your 3rd then to fail to defend it.
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EPT
