EPTThe Zerg Help Me Thread - Page 169
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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. | ||
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NolanPower
3 Posts
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Macpo
453 Posts
 Any opinion? | ||
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houffy
United States12 Posts
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Olsson
Sweden931 Posts
On February 02 2012 00:27 Macpo wrote: I have a question about late game Z v Z. It doesn't happen much, but when it does, I am kind of clueless about better unit compositions... I am thinking of mass infestors harass with mass spines, mass roaches with constant trade, Broodlords/roaches; broodlords/hydras; or roaches ultralisks... but I can't make my mind Any opinion? You can't engage him directly with roach hydra infestor so the options you have are: 1. Ultralisks, they work well with fungal support but vs heavy hydra compositions they will fall apart. 2. Brood lords, when you reach that critical mass the only option the other player has is to mass corruptor which you in turn can then go roaches and just run by to his bases. 3. Nydus and drops constant harass an pulling out of position. If you are going roach hydra infestor towards the late game you want a majority of hydras in your army about 60% of hydras because they take fungals much better since their light and the DPS are better than roaches. | ||
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c0ldfusion
United States8293 Posts
On February 02 2012 00:35 houffy wrote: is the 11 pool 18 hatch still a viable opening? or is it inferior to the 14/15 pool/hatch builds, so it's never used anymore? Destiny opens 11 pool sometimes in ZvP. Economy-wise, it is known that it's inferior to 15 hatch. Personally (to give context, I'm low masters), I wouldn't even open 11 pool in ZvP. You'll want the early lings anyway, so a 12 or 13 pool opening is probably more appriopriate. I might do it once in a while in ZvT though, if I think the terran isn't going to wall. | ||
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Igaryu85
Germany195 Posts
On February 02 2012 00:51 c0ldfusion wrote: Destiny opens 11 pool sometimes in ZvP. Economy-wise, it is known that it's inferior to 15 hatch. Personally (to give context, I'm low masters), I wouldn't even open 11 pool in ZvP. You'll want the early lings anyway, so a 12 or 13 pool opening is probably more appriopriate. I might do it once in a while in ZvT though, if I think the terran isn't going to wall. There was a thread about openings a while back and while 15hatch was the economically best build 11pool wasnt all that far behind because you can get the queen so early so yea going 11 pool against toss seems to be a good idea. Against T 15 hatch basically is the best opening and in ZvZ its a matter of tatse and map size I think. | ||
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Vega62a
946 Posts
On February 02 2012 00:35 houffy wrote: is the 11 pool 18 hatch still a viable opening? or is it inferior to the 14/15 pool/hatch builds, so it's never used anymore? I've seen Sheth use it in ZvP fairly frequently. I don't know how objectively good it is, or what other pros and cons it has, but I do know that it allows him to punish Protosses who go nexus before cannon (ultra greedy - from this it seems like it's more effective on a 2player map than a 4player one, but that's my uneducated take on it, and I'd appreciate a correction) and can often be used to prevent the protoss from sneaking probes out. If anybody who has used this build successfully at a GM-ish level is reading this, I'd be curious to know what a good economic followup to this is, or if it's any different from a standard build. (Faster 3rd, heavier/lighter droning, delayed gas, etc). | ||
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PeanutsNJam
United States175 Posts
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Olsson
Sweden931 Posts
On February 02 2012 01:54 PeanutsNJam wrote: Is neural parasite ever worth it anymore? After the range nerf it's crap vs colossi and thors (never seen bc's), and marginally useful vs immortals (immortals in the back of the army so too far away). Nope. Seriously it has no use anymore the range is too short. You could use it against immortals but only if the protoss has no idea on how to position his army and even then fi the immortals were at the front your infestors would be too far forward aswell. The spell isn't worth it, too energy costly, the range is too short, NP has travel time and the upgrade is wasted money. | ||
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Falcon-sw
United States323 Posts
Nice how Terran casters are tiny (ghosts), Protoss casters are tiny (templar) but Zerg get these huge flashing neon signs that say "SHOOT ME." | ||
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VoirDire
Sweden1923 Posts
On February 02 2012 01:54 PeanutsNJam wrote: Is neural parasite ever worth it anymore? After the range nerf it's crap vs colossi and thors (never seen bc's), and marginally useful vs immortals (immortals in the back of the army so too far away). I use it when P has a lot of archons, but nothing else. | ||
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Vega62a
946 Posts
On February 02 2012 03:21 VoirDire wrote: I use it when P has a lot of archons, but nothing else. I wonder, though, if it might not be something worth playing around with positionally. If Immortals are at the back of an immortal/stalker/sentry army, for example, it's conceivable that NP might make surrounds far more effective. Not saying it will or it won't, just something to play around with. | ||
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Melange
United States39 Posts
On February 02 2012 01:43 Vega62a wrote: I've seen Sheth use it in ZvP fairly frequently. I don't know how objectively good it is, or what other pros and cons it has, but I do know that it allows him to punish Protosses who go nexus before cannon (ultra greedy - from this it seems like it's more effective on a 2player map than a 4player one, but that's my uneducated take on it, and I'd appreciate a correction) and can often be used to prevent the protoss from sneaking probes out. If anybody who has used this build successfully at a GM-ish level is reading this, I'd be curious to know what a good economic followup to this is, or if it's any different from a standard build. (Faster 3rd, heavier/lighter droning, delayed gas, etc). I think it'd be much more effective on a 4 player map. All protosses will scout after the first pylon, so if you're playing on a 2 player map then they can scout the early pool before the nexus would be put down. In this case, they can get their defenses up in time to defend any early pressure. On 4 player maps, they might still get a nexus up before scouting your pool and then you could be annoying with the lings. The main use of an early pool (11 or 12 pool) is to get faster lings out so your hatchery can be put down. The fast lings can get rid of any probes from your main and they'll be out in time to prevent any cannon shenanigans. I'd much rather do it this way then going through the frustrations of attempting a hatch first. However, you're absolutely right about the probe denial. These lings help out a lot when you're trying to make sure probes can't sneak out and get up proxy pylons everywhere. When i comes to transitions, it's no different than any other zerg opening. Past the purely opening stages, you would proceed as you would with your preferable response to an FFE or to whatever the protoss is doing. | ||
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llKenZyll
United States853 Posts
On February 02 2012 00:35 houffy wrote: is the 11 pool 18 hatch still a viable opening? or is it inferior to the 14/15 pool/hatch builds, so it's never used anymore? 11 pool 18 hatch is best used in ZvP to prevent cannon rushing. | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
From what I see, is it 10OL, 14gas, 13pool then 2 drones into queen speed and lings without a second OL?? Whatever the Sen build is, I can tell you that if you are going 12 pool or later, it is *never* worth going extractor trick instead of 9 overlord. I'm pretty sure that the 'Sen' build is not just a simply 14/14 and is much deeper than just that. Also, you sure stephano didn't say "Zen" build? I'm just getting the game after a long time of somehow resisting the urge, and I have decided to play Zerg, and I'm just wondering if I could get some easy base strategies that will work as I attempt to get my mechanics good enough to play at any sort of decent level. This question has never been asked before. Surely searching this very thread would proove fruitless. If you want 'easy' strategies, you can go to starcraft2.com and ask all the very successful bronze what they think is easy to pull off. In short, always go hatch first in ZvT, go pool first in ZvP (preferably gasless because speed is useless against FFE, but if you see gateway expand, you'll want to gas right away), and in ZvZ hatch first is the 'best' build' but until you get comfortable with zerg you are probably just best with speedling expand. I don't know what level you play at, but if you are under masters you can do more than extremely successful with any build, including speedling expand, in every match-up (even though in every match-up, it's a horrible build, it's just not the worst thing in the world and at that level of play no one can punish you for opening speedling and sac'ing your econ that much, and can't micro against speedlings). I have a question about late game Z v Z. It doesn't happen much, but when it does, I am kind of clueless about better unit compositions... I am thinking of mass infestors harass with mass spines, mass roaches with constant trade, Broodlords/roaches; broodlords/hydras; or roaches ultralisks... but I can't make my mind Any opinion? It really depends what's going on. You can't make ultralisks without mutalisks, and you can't go ultralisks against mutalisks without infestor+mutalisk, so if you lose your mutalisks, you need to tech switch to roach/infestor or rebuild them (which usually means you've lost the game, but hopefully you did as much damage to the opponent). Mass infestors is actually pretty bad in ZvZ. Theoretically, yes, if you could just suddenly pop mass infestors, there's nothing that can beat the unit composition except pure Broodlord (a near 1-1 ratio of bl to infestor means infestors all get raped trying to get in range of the BL). But, if you attempt to make infestors in ZvZ anytime before hitting 200/200 with roaches or roach/hydra, you will get absolutely steamrolled by an opponent who just masses roaches and pushes you when you stopped roach production in order to tech. Getting 5 infestors is basically cutting out 32 roaches - if you are sitting at 150 supply with some 35 roaches, the opponent will just a-move with 67 roaches and kill you. That's assuming you even made roaches, if you just go pure infestor from the start you will really just die to anything. It really depends how the game went as well. If the game is mutas vs roaches, theoretically, you want to go Ultralisk/Muta and win. Ultras actually own anything less than 15 full energy infestors pretty hardcore, and even then, the infestors just spam IT and you back off, and then push again when they are out of energy (and that's assuming you don't just make 4 of your own infestors or banelings and just kill off the ITs instantly). However, personally, I prefer maxing out on Ling/Bane/Muta against roach or infestor play, as you will max out on 200/200 with 30 mutas with support quite quickly, especially given your base lead (but even assuming even bases) and taking advantage of the opponent teching too hard, you will just kill them. 50+ lings actually rape infestors pretty hard, and he won't be able to do anything about 200/200 mass speedbanes either, and then the mutalisks will just clean everything up. Then you just keep remaxing 200/200 on ling/bane, keep your mutas alive, and eventually kill the opponent, as static defense will be worthless against ling/muta, you can't wall-in, and you will have a huge macro lead as the opponent will have a tiny army. Think of it as ZvP except toss can't forcefield or wall-in or have any appreciable AoE. If the game is roach vs roach, you always want to max out 200/200 with roach/hydra, and always be pressuring back and forth so that any time the opponent techs too hard (like earlier infestors) you just bust him and kill him. Once you have 200/200 and 4 bases, you start adding infestors. It's actually quite popular, that in ZvZ roach vs roach, you go nydus. This is because if someone attempts to go slow broodlords, you will just rape them with nydus play, and completely win a base trade with a much faster army and nydus. So generally roach vs roach turns into nydus vs nydus base trades. You can add infestors too, it's personal preference, but I never go hive before getting the nydus, and I've never lost to broodlords. You can also add a spire down so if he gets broodlords, you can kill them off (with your nydus/base trade play, you should be able to kill his econ/spire so he can't deal with them). That's why going 3 base broodlord is such a bad idea, the opponent who is maxed on roaches will just pull you in every direction and kill you base before your broodlords are half way across the map, not to mention he can just get a spire and a few corruptors and win by mobility. If, however, the game ends up to hive vs hive and it's roach based, for whatever reason, you will want to go pure BL/Infestor. Adding just 3 broodlords to your roach army is never really that useful and prone to being out-manuevered and nydus play, so what you do is max out 200/200 on roach or roach/hydra (generally roach/hydra, but sac the hydras if he goes fast infestors, although you won't need to tech up, you just kill him)j, and then remax on infestors and transition to hive. Then, you'll slowly lose out infestors as you slowly turn into pure BL/Corruptor. Once you have about 10+ broodlords, infestors start to become useless. I've actually played a couple games where we both mined out 6 bases on both sides of the map, and I won because the opponent mined out all his bases and my broodlords never died with their corruptor support while he kept losing infestors to my broodlords, and I ended up being way more cost efficient. is the 11 pool 18 hatch still a viable opening? or is it inferior to the 14/15 pool/hatch builds, so it's never used anymore? 11/18 is a horrible opening. Viable? Sure, you can play it. But it's inferior to 14p/16h or 14p/21h in every way. I think people used to 11p because they thought it was safe from cannon rushes, but it's actually not, the lings still won't pop in time to deal with cannon rushes, and if you don't use your drones just like you would if you went 14p or hatch first even, you will lose the game. 11 pool is seen as useful in ZvZ, like for example, 11pool/14gas, because you get more larva and your income will support the larva production. 14pool, however, has less larva, and banks money that is more than you can spend, but this is good because you will want to expand. If, for whatever reason, you are planning to 1 base, than 11 pool is the better opening, but you always want to expand. I mean if maybe you want to do a 1 base roach all-in or are playing ZvZ and want to all-in someone, sure, go 11 pool, but if you are planning to expand, like 11pool/18hatch, then no, it's bad. It does have an interesting timing against FFE nexus first or forge-nexus-gateway instead of forge-nexus-cannon though. I suppose you can play it in ZvP, and drone scout, and if the opponent makes a gateway before cannon, then you can get the lings in his base and wreck havoc, but good luck doing that when Toss scouts your 11pool. 11 pool won't do anything against a Toss who goes forge-nexus-cannon. Is neural parasite ever worth it anymore? After the range nerf it's crap vs colossi and thors (never seen bc's), and marginally useful vs immortals (immortals in the back of the army so too far away). They pretty much neutered it, kind of sad. It still has uses though: 1. Mass archon play. Roach+Infestor w/NP is the way to go. 2. Against motherships. It becomes a dance of NP vs Vortex basically. Vortex has a range of 9 vs NP's 7, but Toss generally won't waste a vortex on a single infestor and then you just double-vortex toss' own army and then spam IT's all around it and FG when they pop out. I've done it in a few games, and I think there's a VOD where destiny did it that reddit got all amazed about. It's not just a luck based thing to do either - with burrow, it's not hard to burrow nearer to the mothership, then NP it and instantly cast vortex twice to kill off the energy and fuck over the Toss army (you think getting BL's vortexed is bad, wait till you suck in a 200/200 herp derp deathball with a single vortex and then spamming IT's all around it, FG'ing when they pop, banelings, and broodlord surround.) You can easily FG-snipe any observers, and the observer has limited range so getting a single infestor behind the army to the mothership isn't impossible. Seriously. I do this in every ZvP. Get burrow and NP, snag mothership, instantly vortex toss army before they can kill infestor since vortex is instant hit rather than projectile. 3. It's also somewhat useful to get NP vs terran when going lategame. NP'ing vikings can be a great way to deal with pesky lone vikings wrecking havoc. You can't engage him directly with roach hydra infestor so the options you have are: 1. Ultralisks, they work well with fungal support but vs heavy hydra compositions they will fall apart. 2. Brood lords, when you reach that critical mass the only option the other player has is to mass corruptor which you in turn can then go roaches and just run by to his bases. 3. Nydus and drops constant harass an pulling out of position. Hydralisks really aren't that great against ultralisks. Roaches are much better, kiting roaches just rape ultralisks. That's why the only way to make ultralisks work, is with muta support (or infestor support, but good luck getting Ultra/Infestor without straight up dying). | ||
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zasta
United Kingdom99 Posts
My question: I'm completely lost against this two base chargelot archon push that I keep facing. Anyone got any tips for holding or timings that it comes out? Thank you x | ||
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GlintFox
United States275 Posts
Anyways, I'm using D.Apollo's 14 gas/14pool safe defensive roach build and wondering when I should look to take a 3rd. Continuously expanding seems to be my problem. I normally take my natural at 20 - 22 depending on circumstances. Typically I judge taking my third based on when my oppenent takes their natural but, that doesnt always happen or when they do take it I am no where near saturated at my own natural so expanding then seems *not the best decision*? Any advice would be great! Thanks in advance Edit: To clarify. | ||
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Olsson
Sweden931 Posts
1. What do you feel about 2base mutalisk play vs a FFE? I like it though because on some maps the third will be severely delayed and by going muta you will come out even with the protoss since he won't feel as free to take his own third without the appropriate tech and infrastructure. 2. Whats your gameplan on compositions along with upgrades? I've been trying with mutas and lings but if I don't do much damage I've lost and it's hard to do damage to toss now adays for me since muta play is just getting more common and protoss are learning on how to deal with it well. 3. Versus mass blink stalkers, are hydras really worth going into or should I just go into roach ling infestor? I prefer the later one because I played a game last night where I got hydras and I totally raped his first army but he just came at me with three colossi after and I couldn't do much. I'm a mid masters player who just got back in after a 2 week break because of my keyboard being sent to repair. | ||
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ETisME
12305 Posts
On February 02 2012 10:53 GlintFox wrote: Hi first time poster, long time SC fan. Anyways, I'm using D.Apollo's 14 gas/14pool safe defensive roach build and wondering when I should look to take a 3rd. Continuously expanding seems to be my problem. I normally take my natural at 20 - 22 depending on circumstances. Typically I judge taking my third based on when my oppenent takes their natural but, that doesnt always happen or when they do take it I am no where near saturated at my own natural so expanding then seems *not the best decision*? Any advice would be great! Thanks in advance Edit: To clarify. when to take a third is a big question. especially in zvz because you could die if he just punish you. ZvT, normally it depends if you are safe or not, not safe, get a macro hatch. If you see him getting a third, you should try to get down a third asap. ZvP, if he is doing some super early expo like 1 gate FE, or FFE, then get a third extremely early is ok. Basically the concept is: can you get the third up early and safely? Against any of other race's FE, usually that means super early third is ok. saturation level will require you to make some good decisions, when to make units, how many drones is safe to get are all about decision making. Normally a lower saturation in an exchange for an extra base is ideal | ||
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Olsson
Sweden931 Posts
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