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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. | ||
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Roynalf
Finland886 Posts
On February 18 2012 22:09 Orgiastic wrote: So with this method, you don't hotkey you're queens? You just snap to the hatch, select and inject? I'm watching a replay from Leenock and he doesn't seem to hotkey the queens at all. They got so good mouse accuracy, its just the way how they are used to play | ||
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Madera
Sweden2672 Posts
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RaiZ
2813 Posts
On February 18 2012 22:30 Roynalf wrote: They got so good mouse accuracy, its just the way how they are used to play It doesn't require a "so good" mouse accuracy at all... All you have to do is drag box after double taping your hatch, since most of the time even if there are multiples units along with the queen, the queen gets the highest priority. After that your eyes gets used to where your queens are and then you do a slighty smaller drag box. | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
It's just so damn hard to hold, and I'm confused on lair and macro hatch timing against it. On maps like TDA it's just impossible to beat (either you killed your econ to tear down rocks, or your third is so far away that they snipe off rallied units they never can reinforce in time). | ||
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TheRabidDeer
United States3806 Posts
Literally the only thing that I lose to atm -.- | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
Empty base means tech, and you can rule out DTs because they need a few gateways for them, and HT for same reason, and robo because robo is horrible without support (even immortal/sentry needs sentries). So, you if you don't see a single gateway, it's obviously double stargate. You have to think about the gas intake. If it's what, 150 gas a minute per geyser, 4 geysers is like 600 gas a minute? Where would 600 gas go in a minute if they have no gateways... It means you missed the 2 stargates. They could even be proxied. You might get lucky and see them though, which makes it all the more clear. You can confirm it by seeing no spinning on the forge, unusual lack of warp gate (ie 7:00 ish), unusual chrono on gateway (air ups). They will have 4 void rays at about 10:00, and if you are still confused at 9:00, be prepared. Need about 1 spore 1 queen per hatch, and add them up as he reveals air fleet until 3 spores per base, and plus a few random ones. Just need to hold the all-in, he won't have sentries or any way to secure his third against mass ling. If you search my posts on the matter, I know somewhere in this thread I linked 2 games where pros held it off. Losira held it off on Dual sight. He even loses his third in the process, but due to the all-in nature of it, he still came out way ahead because he only lost his third, not much else, and just simply replanted it. Knowing there are no gateway units, he just kept droning up, got lots of queens, and eventually pushed with mass ling/speedroach/hydra. Nestea holds it on off on close air Terminus. He eventually gets mass corruptors, and ling/speedbane. From there he just kept throwing unending mass speedbanes, since he knew the opponent wouldn't have enough sentries. Eventually every building blew up to the banes. In both cases, they held with queen/spore, lots of them, pushed back with corruptors, and then overwhelmed with mass ground army with lots of lings. Most commonly people hold it off with corruptor, you can use infestors or hydras too but be careful, infestor play is vulnerable to just a sudden switch to mass ground units and phoenixes, and hydras can get picked off being rallied out of hatches by mass phoenix. That many phoenix can really rape hydras before you can get enough to push back. | ||
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TheRabidDeer
United States3806 Posts
On February 19 2012 11:44 Belial88 wrote: ^ It's been posted in this thread a million times, just search posts. In short, you see quick 4 gas (the 2 gas at natural) with your overlord at natural (you are always, always, always 100% making sure you put an overlord by natural's gas right?), and when you sac 2 overlords into their main ~7:00, you see an empty base. Empty base means tech, and you can rule out DTs because they need a few gateways for them, and HT for same reason, and robo because robo is horrible without support (even immortal/sentry needs sentries). So, you if you don't see a single gateway, it's obviously double stargate. You have to think about the gas intake. If it's what, 150 gas a minute per geyser, 4 geysers is like 600 gas a minute? Where would 600 gas go in a minute if they have no gateways... It means you missed the 2 stargates. They could even be proxied. You might get lucky and see them though, which makes it all the more clear. You can confirm it by seeing no spinning on the forge, unusual lack of warp gate (ie 7:00 ish), unusual chrono on gateway (air ups). They will have 4 void rays at about 10:00, and if you are still confused at 9:00, be prepared. Need about 1 spore 1 queen per hatch, and add them up as he reveals air fleet until 3 spores per base, and plus a few random ones. Just need to hold the all-in, he won't have sentries or any way to secure his third against mass ling. If you search my posts on the matter, I know somewhere in this thread I linked 2 games where pros held it off. Losira held it off on Dual sight. He even loses his third in the process, but due to the all-in nature of it, he still came out way ahead because he only lost his third, not much else, and just simply replanted it. Knowing there are no gateway units, he just kept droning up, got lots of queens, and eventually pushed with mass ling/speedroach/hydra. Nestea holds it on off on close air Terminus. He eventually gets mass corruptors, and ling/speedbane. From there he just kept throwing unending mass speedbanes, since he knew the opponent wouldn't have enough sentries. Eventually every building blew up to the banes. In both cases, they held with queen/spore, lots of them, pushed back with corruptors, and then overwhelmed with mass ground army with lots of lings. Most commonly people hold it off with corruptor, you can use infestors or hydras too but be careful, infestor play is vulnerable to just a sudden switch to mass ground units and phoenixes, and hydras can get picked off being rallied out of hatches by mass phoenix. That many phoenix can really rape hydras before you can get enough to push back. Very true, hadnt thought about that. My usual playstyle involves a fastish lair, so I will probably grab some hydras though... I seem to have horrible spore placement and people find holes every time. I usually expect 1 stargate, just double stargate throws me off T_T | ||
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Biz
Canada10 Posts
On February 18 2012 03:36 yakitate304 wrote: I'm only a high plat zerg player but these are the core builds that I use in 75% of my games. ZvT: aXa's Zergling Aggression Build ....... Thanks yakitate304, I've had quite a lot of success vs. terran with this build! I'm still struggling with what to do against protoss most of the time. My ZvZ is usually pretty good and ends quite early (get speed first and have success after that) so I haven't had too much practice in that match up. With that said, does anyone have any bronze level anti protoss strategies, how do you counter a perceived 4 gate? Are roaches almost mandatory against toss? When encountering mass void rays, are hydras for defense and lings for backstab your best choice? | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
Very true, hadnt thought about that. My usual playstyle involves a fastish lair, so I will probably grab some hydras though... I seem to have horrible spore placement and people find holes every time. I usually expect 1 stargate, just double stargate throws me off T_T If you are going fast third, then you shouldn't be going fast lair. Standard lair timing going fast third (which is standard response to FFE) is ~9:00, maybe 8ish. You can cut around 7-8 lair, but only if you see gas at toss natural or you have reason to take this risk (maybe you got lings in early, maybe toss failed a cannon rush).. like you would against a double stargate, which you would know if you scout, and thus get an early lair to 'counter' it. I would recommend AGAINST hydras against double stargate play, since phoenix, doing bonus to light, rape hydras in somewhat equal numbers. The issue is that double stargate will have phoenix all up in your base, so when your hydras rally out from each hatch individually, they just pick them off. Then you can never really get enough hydras to counter their phoenix fleet, and you just die. Against single stargate, hydras can be an amazing way to respond, but against double? No way. You might be able to pull them off if you have 3 spores at each hatch, and then 2 or so random spores along rally routes, but eh. I would recommend against it. Personally though, I never go hydras in ZvP, and against stargate openers of any kind, I get spire. If It's single stargate, corruptors do fine, if it's double, then it works great too. I like corruptors as the answer to stargate because if they open stargate, you can use corruptors to secure air control for your mutas, or if Toss decides to go deathball colossi. I just feel hydras are poor against robo transition, double stargate, et cetera. They really only do good against single stargate, but even then, I prefer roach/ling as my choice of aggression (if not mutas) because they are more mobile. I use lots of multi-pronged attacks against Toss and hydras just don't suit my play. But they are viable, sure, but they are best against single stargate, and not so great against everything else, and worst against robo transitions and double stargate. You need to use more queen heavy rather than spores in regards to holes. Just 1-3 spores at each base will take care of any phoenix from gravitoning anything, then you use queens to 'counter' the void rays. If you rely too much on spores, mass voids can kill you. If you are playing 2 base lair, I would assume you are either doing a hydra nydus all-in or 2 base muta. Double stargate counters any sort of hydra play pretty hard, especially 2 base, and if you go mutas then use the corruptors to just hold the all-in and take a faster third and deny his third with lots of lings. The reason double stargate owns 2 base hydra is because not grabbing a third vs FFE means you are relying on 2 base aggression to come out with a lead, and against double stargate while going 2 base hydra, you are forced to defend... while on a lower econ, meaning Toss can secure their third by just throwing some gateways down. tldr: not hydras. Corruptors. Use queens to 'counter' voids, and spores to 'counter' phoenix. Should have creep spread to let queens get around. | ||
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TheRabidDeer
United States3806 Posts
On February 19 2012 12:59 Belial88 wrote: If you are going fast third, then you shouldn't be going fast lair. Standard lair timing going fast third (which is standard response to FFE) is ~9:00, maybe 8ish. You can cut around 7-8 lair, but only if you see gas at toss natural or you have reason to take this risk (maybe you got lings in early, maybe toss failed a cannon rush).. like you would against a double stargate, which you would know if you scout, and thus get an early lair to 'counter' it. I would recommend AGAINST hydras against double stargate play, since phoenix, doing bonus to light, rape hydras in somewhat equal numbers. The issue is that double stargate will have phoenix all up in your base, so when your hydras rally out from each hatch individually, they just pick them off. Then you can never really get enough hydras to counter their phoenix fleet, and you just die. Against single stargate, hydras can be an amazing way to respond, but against double? No way. You might be able to pull them off if you have 3 spores at each hatch, and then 2 or so random spores along rally routes, but eh. I would recommend against it. Personally though, I never go hydras in ZvP, and against stargate openers of any kind, I get spire. If It's single stargate, corruptors do fine, if it's double, then it works great too. I like corruptors as the answer to stargate because if they open stargate, you can use corruptors to secure air control for your mutas, or if Toss decides to go deathball colossi. I just feel hydras are poor against robo transition, double stargate, et cetera. They really only do good against single stargate, but even then, I prefer roach/ling as my choice of aggression (if not mutas) because they are more mobile. I use lots of multi-pronged attacks against Toss and hydras just don't suit my play. But they are viable, sure, but they are best against single stargate, and not so great against everything else, and worst against robo transitions and double stargate. You need to use more queen heavy rather than spores in regards to holes. Just 1-3 spores at each base will take care of any phoenix from gravitoning anything, then you use queens to 'counter' the void rays. If you rely too much on spores, mass voids can kill you. If you are playing 2 base lair, I would assume you are either doing a hydra nydus all-in or 2 base muta. Double stargate counters any sort of hydra play pretty hard, especially 2 base, and if you go mutas then use the corruptors to just hold the all-in and take a faster third and deny his third with lots of lings. The reason double stargate owns 2 base hydra is because not grabbing a third vs FFE means you are relying on 2 base aggression to come out with a lead, and against double stargate while going 2 base hydra, you are forced to defend... while on a lower econ, meaning Toss can secure their third by just throwing some gateways down. tldr: not hydras. Corruptors. Use queens to 'counter' voids, and spores to 'counter' phoenix. Should have creep spread to let queens get around. My general style in ZvP is heavy ling/infestor play with faster upgrades. I saturate 2 bases, get upgrades and lair then grab a 3rd. If I put down a hydra den before infestation pit, I will be 100% safe against it when I scout it... I usually just dont know its coming until its at my base and my 3 queens and sparse spore's just die. I just dont like fast 3rd in ZvP since so many protoss have some very refined builds that just kill your 3rd at no cost. I also just cant handle VR/phoenix because I cant get decent spore crawler placement. They just pick them off 1 at a time, then always happen to go where my queens arent. EDIT: I wont be going mass hydra, just get like a half dozen or so. | ||
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halpimcat
215 Posts
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
My general style in ZvP is heavy ling/infestor play with faster upgrades. I saturate 2 bases, get upgrades and lair then grab a 3rd. If I put down a hydra den before infestation pit, I will be 100% safe against it when I scout it... I usually just dont know its coming until its at my base and my 3 queens and sparse spore's just die. If you are going 2 base lair, your lair should be a lot faster, like 30-35 supply. The idea behind 2 base lair is you are doing aggression to end up ahead, otherwise you end up behind. Think of it like a 6 pool, just, not as all-in. It's just a timing attack. 2 base infestor means you go infestor bust every game? Because you can't really just sit on 2 base and macro, you HAVE to do damage or you end up behind. And infestor play kind of died with the nerf, colossi jsut rape infestors now. If you are going infestors though, stick with it. You can 'counter' double stargate with infestors (even though corruptors are best). Don't go both infestors and hydras, just one or the other. Really, the best 'counter' for it is corruptors, I don't know if you can really handle a good double stargate with infestors or hydras. You hold the all-in with spores and queens. You become the aggressor, with corruptors (maybe infestors, I wouldn't recommend it. Possibly hydras, but I dont think so). I just dont like fast 3rd in ZvP since so many protoss have some very refined builds that just kill your 3rd at no cost. I don't think so. There's no all-in that Toss can do that will autokill the third, at least, not without taking significant damage themselves (like killing your third, but then losing their entire army so they lose more than gain themselves), if you properly prepare. That's why fast third is the standard response to FFE. If you are unable to do it, maybe try practicing. A good way to practice against FFE, is just have someone do a probe-cut 6 gate +1 all-in with you that takes no gas at natural and cuts probes around 35-40 and hits around 8:30, shooting at you by 8:50. Once you can hold that, you should be pretty well practiced to hold any toss all-in. Every zerg wouldn't do it if it just autolost to something Toss could do. But as it is, you can hold any all-in with fast third. You just have to respond appropriately. Basically, use spores/queens for DT/SG, and cut drones from 65 supply (~55 drones) or higher depending on severity of push. Standard lair timing is about 9:00 unless you see a reason to make it earlier (ie your safe, you know toss is teching too, etc). I'm reading the thread and a lot of people are talking about a "backspace" method for larva injects? Anyone care to enlighten me and explain what it is? search. | ||
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swift94
Hungary8 Posts
OKAY SO here is the situation. METALOPOLIS. I open greedy fast expo, i lose a drone he loses a marine and thats it. He gets 6 hellions denys 3rd gets FAST tanks + marines. I drone till i have 70 drones on 4 bases perfectly saturated, i have 2-1 upgrades and 2-0 mutas. HE stays on 2 base for hours than walks out with 6 tanks 40 marines 4 medivacs then he kills EVRYTHING I HAVE WHITOUT LOSING A SINGLE MARINE. IT IS TERRIBLY FUNNY THAT WHEN I PLAYED TERRAN I NEVER EVER EDVER VERFECEdASEWsífsdf CRYED about balance now i do it after evry game with ZERG. ISNT THIS SO INTRESTING? With terran i did not even hotkey my fukn command centers cause i sucked THAT VERY BADLY, YET i simply raped master zergs and protosses. WTF am i doing wrong???????SD?d,asdá,dasdasda OKAY HERE IS AN other situation: When a toss allins me or w/e he get destroyed ezly w/o any problem. If he gets 3rd he still gets raped. BUT if he gets 3 colo+sentry stalker AND THEN gets a 3rd and then maxes on colo stalker vr templar MOTHERSHIP zerg can't do ANYTHING. YEAH SURE you can get 10 bl's but he just keeps hes obeservers around your army and when he sees corruptors he 1a moves and wins. NOW i played toss as well until i were like middle diamond. I stopped then asked one of my master zerg friends to try to deal with this strategy. AGAIN 3 colo exp into maxing. AFTER i sniped some expos with bling stalkers (which is fukn ez) i simply 1a moved right into the 20 broodlord infestor army dropped 6 storms and won, after my 3rd got denied twice. He had like 25 ingame minutes to get his ideal infestor bl army and he did get them. HOW IS IT POSSIBLE TO BEAT THIS SHIT? I don't even play toss. WHY do i have to wait for fukn HOTS to come out and make zerg imbalanced for a few months.... ABOUT the ghost nerf. FOR ALL you terran whiners GO chek out NESTEA vs MVP. NESTEA MADE like 30 BROODS and 10 INFESTORS and maxed after 40 minutes of 90 drones mining THEN YOU KNOW WHAT happened???? Nestea decided to attack and then his forces died in like 7 seconds to snipe SERIOUSLY to 20 ghosts. NOT IMBALANCED NOT AT ALL FUKN IDIOTS NOT AT ALL. This game is a fukn joke and it is fukn bad -.- SO WTF AM I DOING WROMG OTHER THAN RAGING? User was warned for this post | ||
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Guamshin
Netherlands295 Posts
My macro was good but around 10 min he goes a push just when i try to take a third which destroyed me i don't know why but i think i overdroned a little bit or engaged to early :/. http://drop.sc/115374 | ||
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swift94
Hungary8 Posts
GRANDMASTERS, TOP PLAYERS, IF YOU READ THIS, PLEASE TELL ME WHAT THE MOTHERRFUKCIASIDASNFSDGH HELLLLL I DID WRONG HERE IS THE REPLAY. http://www.mediafire.com/?g5fvx8fh0ds2igx | ||
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BadBinky
Finland649 Posts
On February 19 2012 08:57 Belial88 wrote: Can anyone link some vods of a pro zerg holding a 7 gate blink all-in while going fast third? It's just so damn hard to hold, and I'm confused on lair and macro hatch timing against it. On maps like TDA it's just impossible to beat (either you killed your econ to tear down rocks, or your third is so far away that they snipe off rallied units they never can reinforce in time). I played a few games against some weird blink allin. I wanted to beat it with 3base roach/ling to get good hive transition. Here's a rep pack. It took me 4 games to finally beat it even when i knew it was coming  No pro or anything but here goes anyway. https://rapidshare.com/files/596408477/zvp7gblink.rar edit: the normal 7 gate i face on ladder usually comes earlier with less force fields and is easy to hold with lings and a few roaches with burrow. I'm not sure if this is some delayed one. My play is somewhat rusty after a few months break from the game and I don't have a build order just kinda freestyle. | ||
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Funguuuuu
United States198 Posts
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Narfinger
53 Posts
On February 20 2012 00:27 Funguuuuu wrote: In ZVZ if I go 14 gas/14 pool when do I get my Baneling nest or expand? This is just my build and may be not correct or not optimal, but it works for me most of the time: As Speed started, drones out of gas. Expand right after speed,queen and 4 zerglings are started. Right after the expansion is started, drones back into gas. And Baneling nest as soon as possible. The only problem is Baneling attacks without expand (with or without speed) there only micro helps. If you want to be more safe you can just rearrange that and keep drones in gas until 50 gas, then take them out. @halpimcat: As far as I know you reassign the back to base Hotkey (I think normally Backspace) to a more convenient Location. Now you can do the following: Hatches on Hotkey A, all Queens on Hotkey B and your back to base Hotkey C. B C v click, B v click, B v click, B v click. Every base you inject should have a Queen nearby and your Hotkey C cycles to all your Hatches. It takes some time to get used to it but it can be really fast. My Question: How can I be sure if a Terran goes Mech or Marine Tank. It seems after Hellion Opening, I cannot see anything, while my Overlord next to his Base still has to check if no Cloak Banshee after the Hellion Opening comes and most of the times dies. At the moment I just die to a Marine Tank push because I have no Banelings ready because I am unsure if Mech or Marine Tank comes. P.S.: Currently Mid-Diamond. | ||
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Tribuno
Italy261 Posts
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KeeN
Canada82 Posts
On February 19 2012 22:33 swift94 wrote: i'm drewling due to the unbearable rage that has been flowing trough me during my last 50 games vs Toss. I AM CRYING FOR REAL. AS terran i never called NEVER ever called a race imbalanced. AGAIN as zerg i do it evrygame......... I'M TRYING MY FUCKING HARDEST. I AM THINKING I AM PAYING ATTENTION TO MICRO MACRO MINIMAP AND EVRYTHING IN MY POWER YET IT IS NOT ENOUGH AT ALL. CHEK this game PLEASE. HOW IS IT POSSIBLE THAT a maxed vs maxed army WHERE zerg has 160 armyfood and toss has 130. ZERG with the better upgrades,i did spread myself out as much as i could, THEN after that motherfucking retarded little bitch remade his 3rd for the 3rd time and finally maxed with a motership... you know what happened? DO YOU???? He destroyed my whole army in 5 seconds. IN FIVE MOTHERFUCKING SECONDS WHERE I HAVE THE BIGGER MUCH BIGGER ARMY WHERE I HAVE THE BETTER UPGRADES. GRANDMASTERS, TOP PLAYERS, IF YOU READ THIS, PLEASE TELL ME WHAT THE MOTHERRFUKCIASIDASNFSDGH HELLLLL I DID WRONG HERE IS THE REPLAY. http://www.mediafire.com/?g5fvx8fh0ds2igx overall you guys both had things you could have improved on, however at that point of time you should have won 100%, that archon toilet shit is overpowered | ||
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