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On September 24 2010 11:06 Newguy wrote:
How, in ZvP, do you deal with the build where protoss gets an expansion, techs to a temlar + mass gateway army, and then takes a third while continuing to upgrade, pressure a bit but not commit, and then just crush you with a gateway/templar army with lots of storms, charge, blink, and upgrades. I've tried lots of stuff against it, but can't find a way to beat a good protoss player who does this, even if I gain the advantage. Hydra/roach seems to melt to mass storms and the huge number of units, and even if I secure 2 expos and the gold and get hive tech, when he mixes immortals in the mix, ultras just evaporate. Broodlords do ok, but they're really expensive, and the corrupters are useless against a protoss whose not getting colossus. What do I do against this?
Here's how i usually deal with a large gateway/templar push (mid diamond): if the toss isn't pressuring you heavily, you should be at 4-5 bases against this when the push comes (depending on map obv.). I personally go mass muta against a build like this (or, basically any build that doesn't incorporate a fast stargate) and just keep the pressure up on them. Sniping drones, pylons, lone units and what-not. Keep adding muta's to be able to towerdive and you will REALLY put the protoss on the back foot, sometimes to the extend of him not being able to take a third at all. While doing this, take expo's yourself and start teching and upgrading your ground army. Thanks to your air harass, he shouldn't be able to commit to a lot of immortals, so ultra's should clean that ball up nicely (you need to balance your gas need, but then again you should have a lot more gas income than him).
A fun tactics i like to add in is building a TON of banelings after you've hit 30-40 mutalisks. I'm talking 60+ banelings here, preferably with upgrades. The moment his ball comes out just overwelm him with bombs and send the muta's in to clean up. Works less well against an aware opponent with a lot of sentries though, so if possible snipe those first with your muta ball;)
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On September 24 2010 15:52 Half wrote:
Another question on why pros don't do something.....
Why don't pros ever open 3 queens, only 2? This is something I find myself doing a lot. A queen is 150 minerals, the cost of a spine crawler. In return, you get
a)Free Creep tumor
b)Decent DPS
c)Meatsheild
d)Heal.
To me, I often see progamers lay down 2 or 3 spine crawlers anticipating a timing push. I don't see why they don't add a queen in there BO, as it adds protection against air, basically seems a more rounded defense option then another spine crawler. They can be used to block the ramp against hellion harrass, kite zealots, heal roaches/spine crawlers, and make your 3rd expo come up faster.
Extra queen is great. Dimaga has been making up to 5 queens, extra queens used to be very popular amongst koreans(according to artosis) but i havent really seen it all that much of that in recent reps.
But yea 3 queens in my opinion is a bare minimum, it makes you safe against unexpected air cheese with 0 drawback.
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Hi guys,
I'm sorry because I'm pretty sure my question has already been answered many time, but this forum (if I am correct) really lacks an in-thread search function. So, my question is really simple, I would be very glad if someone could show me a couple of replays successfully defending a 6 pool in ZvZ, without very early scouting (like sending the 6th or 7th drone to scout).
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On September 24 2010 12:51 Sixes wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2010 07:21 Sfydjklm wrote:On September 24 2010 04:09 Sixes wrote:On September 24 2010 02:34 Sfydjklm wrote:On September 24 2010 01:50 Sixes wrote:On September 24 2010 01:03 hakundo wrote:
I've also got trouble as a ~1050 diamond player versus Protoss who either double pylon + cannon my ramp or do ~ 3pylons 3cannons close to the ramp, so the sunkens can't hit them from the top.
Then they go for some gateway units / FE. Nydus feels like an allin and if I break out of my base, I feel sooooo far behind :-( Remember that he costs himself a huge amount when doing this, you aren't far behind. Just break it then apply pressure while expanding. Ideally you want to spot this with your 9 OL and get a drone down there to delay it by blocking the placements and harassing the probe. Preferably delay it enough that you can get some lings out to tackle the pylons. This sort of delay also means his placement will be less perfect and your eventual roaches can have an easier time breaking it. you cant break it cause forcefields lolz. On September 24 2010 02:03 skindzer wrote:On September 24 2010 01:03 hakundo wrote:
I've also got trouble as a ~1050 diamond player versus Protoss who either double pylon + cannon my ramp or do ~ 3pylons 3cannons close to the ramp, so the sunkens can't hit them from the top.
Use a tumor. + Show Spoiler +I just build the spine crawler the moment i see the pylons going up that way he cant cannon up the ramp. If he gets cannons up the ramp things get hard but as long as they stay down and you stay calm youll always end up ahead, hes investing 350 in "nothing" early game while you can invest 100 in a single defense to stop it and just power drones those other 250 minerals. Also, even if you need to hit a cannon first your spine crawler will end up alive cause the cannon wont be able to hit while its burrowing because it wont have vision. he just said they place cannons so that sunken cant hit em from the top of the ramp. Going up the ramp with cannons isnt the point of that strat at all so it makes me question what level you're on. And powering drones is only good for that mucch, eventually youll face diminishing returns and both 4 gate followup and quick expo will set u far behind(he'll poke u to death with stalkers while 4 gating and if he expos haha good luck doing anything. If the player has multiple sentries, 3 cannons 3 pylons (at your base) all before you have a few roaches, you have done something wrong. Timing for roaches is around when a toss has 5 zealots coming up your ramp on Steppes ... If you see this stuff, 5 RR, it gives you the roaches to break through and enough for the expand. A protoss player can't have 3 cannons 3 pylons (at your base) and sentries blocking your ramp by the 5 minute mark. In fact I'm pretty sure even just getting sentries there would be tough, there's a reason Tester does a pylon and cannon block, if he could just get sentries and get the Z stuck I doubt he would bother (he needs 3? sentries for a permanent forcefield and they delay tech with their gas cost). Remember as well that any fast cannon (so forge first) build delays gateways (which delays cyber). i dunno what to say to that because this is not what happens at all. Please describe how you let a toss get 3 cannons and 3 pylons between your main and nat but out of spine crawler range before you got roaches, roaches do just fine against cannons that aren't up a ramp.
Dude stay on topic, this thread is for answering specific questions.
I just think if Sen has been 10 pooling to counter this, it's probably the best.
but i'll welcome replays that display how you can break through a wall without setting yourself way back.
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in ZvZ when you go mutas and your opponent hydras/roaches, what is the best answer if he adds some infestors?
I feel like infestors are not as good against hydras as they are good against muta/ling. there is a game I tried to switch to ultras but the hydras killed them... maybe its because I didn't gather a good quantity of ultras, but I think I'm vulnerable until I have a decent amount of ultras.
another question:
in ZvZ I'm also going 10 pool almost everygame to be safe against 6pool. is there anything else safer to do? is it possible to defend 6 pool with 2 spines with 14 gas/14 pool?
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On September 24 2010 18:40 ilbh wrote:
in ZvZ when you go mutas and your opponent hydras/roaches, what is the best answer if he adds some infestors?
I feel like infestors are not as good against hydras as they are good against muta/ling. there is a game I tried to switch to ultras but the hydras killed them... maybe its because I didn't gather a good quantity of ultras, but I think I'm vulnerable until I have a decent amount of ultras.
muta is about mapcontrol, so your goal is to outexpand your opponent and once you do your ultra will win you the game. And in fact defending muta harrass while teching infestors/hydra oftentimes sets your opponent behind enough that you can go mass roach and kill him. Depends of course on how successful your harrass has proven to be and whether its 2 basin/1 basin. But overall yea i would advise to mass roach till u get ultra so u can at the least defend a counterattack.
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On September 24 2010 18:40 ilbh wrote:
another question:
in ZvZ I'm also going 10 pool almost everygame to be safe against 6pool. is there anything else safer to do? is it possible to defend 6 pool with 2 spines with 14 gas/14 pool?
i've only lost twice in my life going 14 gas 14 pool vs 6 pool. Even on steps of war 13 pool fends off 6 pool. So my suggestion definitely would be to find a zerg buddy and just ask him to 6 pool u over and over and practice defending that.
the number 1 "trick" at defending that is to pull opponents lings through narrow spots- i.e. between hatchery and pool/ pool and vespene geyser where the difference between amount of the lings we have is negated by the narrow space.
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Sorry if this has been answered, but I couldn't find it.
How do you micro the ling/bling combination? I've seen an HDStarcraft commentary in which he says that he uses one hotkey for the combination of the two. Is that the way?
I often find the zerglings blocking my banelings from reaching a target and exploding.
Also, how would you micro the roach/ling/bling combination? Roaches go in first, ling/bling move-surround and then attack-move ?
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When do you start getting upgrades? I find that I throw down my evo chambers when I'm at a 200/200 suppy. When should I be getting it?
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On September 24 2010 18:18 hephaestos wrote:
Hi guys,
I'm sorry because I'm pretty sure my question has already been answered many time, but this forum (if I am correct) really lacks an in-thread search function. So, my question is really simple, I would be very glad if someone could show me a couple of replays successfully defending a 6 pool in ZvZ, without very early scouting (like sending the 6th or 7th drone to scout).
I once had a feeling that my opponent was going to six pool me, so I 10 pooled, and even then I just barely won.
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i know this is no place for 4chan-ish behavior but regarding today's cool's games ill make a well deserved exclusion
+ Show Spoiler [GSL] +
also i played lastshadow today (ajtls) apparently hes trying to switch to Z now, what a baller man.
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I was just about to start a thread for questions but it appears this thread works just fine.
My issue is protoss. I fucking _hate_ protoss. And do please note the curse word so I can underline just how much I hate them. I really don't like protoss by many reasons, this replay is one an example of a game how a protoss can win without have any troubles at all.
http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=151538
You can analyse and tell me what I do wrong but I'll talk some from my point of view also.
First off, the protoss starts off normally, he makes a gateway then go over to core. There is a gap in this point of time of how much the zerg can see what the protoss is doing. Is he going a 4 gate? is he going a 3 gate with robo or whatever. At any point of time, my goal is usally to bring up a second queen fast, and a third from the expo when it's up(i see the expand so I don't in this one.). And push up 2 spine crawlers to deal with such threat.
Anyways, I see he pushes up an sentry army. I look at my base, and I look at his. I notice that he doesn't do a 4gate, he goes for a big macro strategy. So I begin to macro too, but he is way ahead. I bring up a spire, to herass and get a feel to what he is up too. But when he is on 60 workers, i'm only at 30. And he can mass in whatever way he wants. Always with cannons everywhere, just because he can.
My point is, whatever I'm doing, he will be able to it too, just better. I have the entire game, the constant threat that he can attack. His army value is also always sooo much better than mine.
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On September 24 2010 18:53 Sfydjklm wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2010 18:40 ilbh wrote:
another question:
in ZvZ I'm also going 10 pool almost everygame to be safe against 6pool. is there anything else safer to do? is it possible to defend 6 pool with 2 spines with 14 gas/14 pool? i've only lost twice in my life going 14 gas 14 pool vs 6 pool. Even on steps of war 13 pool fends off 6 pool. So my suggestion definitely would be to find a zerg buddy and just ask him to 6 pool u over and over and practice defending that. the number 1 "trick" at defending that is to pull opponents lings through narrow spots- i.e. between hatchery and pool/ pool and vespene geyser where the difference between amount of the lings we have is negated by the narrow space.
just to make sure: are you also talking about the 6 pool build where the guy brings 2 drones with his lings to make 2 spines in your base?
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On September 24 2010 20:28 [Noman] wrote:
Sorry if this has been answered, but I couldn't find it.
How do you micro the ling/bling combination? I've seen an HDStarcraft commentary in which he says that he uses one hotkey for the combination of the two. Is that the way?
I often find the zerglings blocking my banelings from reaching a target and exploding.
Also, how would you micro the roach/ling/bling combination? Roaches go in first, ling/bling move-surround and then attack-move ?
its better to have banelings on separate hotkey and move em through rather then attack move. Ideally youll split banes into smaller groups u can pull in several directions.
There are several ways you deal with zerglings, 1 is to surround your enemy and another is to use them as cannon fodder, when you attack with them, and then when ur banelings get close u pull ur lings back allowing the banes to go through.
In roach-b/ling scenario b/ling has to go first with lings absorbing damage before banelings get close enough because if u send roaches in first banelings will take forever to go around them. Ideally of course youll attack from several fronts.
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On September 24 2010 21:01 hadoken5 wrote:
When do you start getting upgrades? I find that I throw down my evo chambers when I'm at a 200/200 suppy. When should I be getting it?
ideally a couple of minutes after yoru lair is done. Depends on how agressive your opponent is of course. So as soon as you can. I know the urge is to double evo and double up at the same time, but dont shy away from upgrading just 1 thing in jsut 1 evo.
You need to watch TLO vs Hyberdub game 1 to never want to do anything but rush for upgrades asap.
Upgrades win you games man.
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On September 24 2010 22:53 ilbh wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2010 18:53 Sfydjklm wrote:On September 24 2010 18:40 ilbh wrote:
another question:
in ZvZ I'm also going 10 pool almost everygame to be safe against 6pool. is there anything else safer to do? is it possible to defend 6 pool with 2 spines with 14 gas/14 pool? i've only lost twice in my life going 14 gas 14 pool vs 6 pool. Even on steps of war 13 pool fends off 6 pool. So my suggestion definitely would be to find a zerg buddy and just ask him to 6 pool u over and over and practice defending that. the number 1 "trick" at defending that is to pull opponents lings through narrow spots- i.e. between hatchery and pool/ pool and vespene geyser where the difference between amount of the lings we have is negated by the narrow space. just to make sure: are you also talking about the 6 pool build where the guy brings 2 drones with his lings to make 2 spines in your base?
yep.
this is the how to:
http://www.sc2rep.com/replays/show/id/472
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On September 24 2010 23:10 Sfydjklm wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2010 21:01 hadoken5 wrote:
When do you start getting upgrades? I find that I throw down my evo chambers when I'm at a 200/200 suppy. When should I be getting it? ideally a couple of minutes after yoru lair is done. Depends on how agressive your opponent is of course. So as soon as you can. I know the urge is to double evo and double up at the same time, but dont shy away from upgrading just 1 thing in jsut 1 evo. You need to watch TLO vs Hyberdub game 1 to never want to do anything but rush for upgrades asap. Upgrades win you games man.
That's a really bad example to cite when it comes to upgrades for zerg. Terran upgrades and zerg upgrades are worlds different.
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On September 24 2010 22:42 413X wrote:I was just about to start a thread for questions but it appears this thread works just fine. My issue is protoss. I fucking _hate_ protoss. And do please note the curse word so I can underline just how much I hate them. I really don't like protoss by many reasons, this replay is one an example of a game how a protoss can win without have any troubles at all. http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=151538You can analyse and tell me what I do wrong but I'll talk some from my point of view also. First off, the protoss starts off normally, he makes a gateway then go over to core. There is a gap in this point of time of how much the zerg can see what the protoss is doing. Is he going a 4 gate? is he going a 3 gate with robo or whatever. At any point of time, my goal is usally to bring up a second queen fast, and a third from the expo when it's up(i see the expand so I don't in this one.). And push up 2 spine crawlers to deal with such threat. Anyways, I see he pushes up an sentry army. I look at my base, and I look at his. I notice that he doesn't do a 4gate, he goes for a big macro strategy. So I begin to macro too, but he is way ahead. I bring up a spire, to herass and get a feel to what he is up too. But when he is on 60 workers, i'm only at 30. And he can mass in whatever way he wants. Always with cannons everywhere, just because he can. My point is, whatever I'm doing, he will be able to it too, just better. I have the entire game, the constant threat that he can attack. His army value is also always sooo much better than mine.
If a protoss has 60 workers when you only have 30, you are just playing a much better player than yourself.
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On September 24 2010 20:28 [Noman] wrote:
Sorry if this has been answered, but I couldn't find it.
How do you micro the ling/bling combination? I've seen an HDStarcraft commentary in which he says that he uses one hotkey for the combination of the two. Is that the way?
I often find the zerglings blocking my banelings from reaching a target and exploding.
Also, how would you micro the roach/ling/bling combination? Roaches go in first, ling/bling move-surround and then attack-move ?
Always keep your blings on a separate hotkey from everything else, and, if you can help it, never let your blings attack from the same direction as the rest of your army. You want to pincer your opponent between your blings and everything else.
On September 24 2010 21:01 hadoken5 wrote:
When do you start getting upgrades? I find that I throw down my evo chambers when I'm at a 200/200 suppy. When should I be getting it?
This is matchup dependent. I start getting upgrades before I get my lair in ZvP. I usually start adding upgrades right after my lair finishes in ZvT. Suffice it to say: before 50 supply in both matchups.
On September 24 2010 23:03 CONFIG wrote:
This is just a hard composition to deal with. If he's going heavy on the hellions, you need to be heavy on the roaches. If he's going heavy on the infantry, you need to have a lot of banelings and maybe a couple infestors. Don't worry about attacking into a PF until late game. Just build enough to fend off his attacks, and mass expand.
On September 24 2010 18:18 hephaestos wrote:
Hi guys,
I'm sorry because I'm pretty sure my question has already been answered many time, but this forum (if I am correct) really lacks an in-thread search function. So, my question is really simple, I would be very glad if someone could show me a couple of replays successfully defending a 6 pool in ZvZ, without very early scouting (like sending the 6th or 7th drone to scout).
Right here:
On September 24 2010 23:11 Sfydjklm wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2010 22:53 ilbh wrote:On September 24 2010 18:53 Sfydjklm wrote:On September 24 2010 18:40 ilbh wrote:
another question:
in ZvZ I'm also going 10 pool almost everygame to be safe against 6pool. is there anything else safer to do? is it possible to defend 6 pool with 2 spines with 14 gas/14 pool? i've only lost twice in my life going 14 gas 14 pool vs 6 pool. Even on steps of war 13 pool fends off 6 pool. So my suggestion definitely would be to find a zerg buddy and just ask him to 6 pool u over and over and practice defending that. the number 1 "trick" at defending that is to pull opponents lings through narrow spots- i.e. between hatchery and pool/ pool and vespene geyser where the difference between amount of the lings we have is negated by the narrow space. just to make sure: are you also talking about the 6 pool build where the guy brings 2 drones with his lings to make 2 spines in your base? yep. this is the how to: http://www.sc2rep.com/replays/show/id/472
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EPT![[image loading]](http://img834.imageshack.us/img834/9557/58110666.png)
