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Sfydjklm
United States9218 Posts
On September 25 2010 00:40 sixghost wrote: That's a really bad example to cite when it comes to upgrades for zerg. Terran upgrades and zerg upgrades are worlds different. give us a better example then. | ||
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sixghost
United States2096 Posts
what do you think about cool getting something like 90 drones in G1 of his GSL match last night? Personally I don't see why zerg would ever need more than 60-65 drones, since you will mining out your main/nat by the time you would get enough expansions to need any more drones than that. I feel like any more drones than that just makes zerg even weaker in one of their worst aspects, which is the strength of a maxed army(that doesn't include ultras). It really seemed like that decision almost cost him a game that he well ahead in. | ||
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sixghost
United States2096 Posts
How about any ZERG game? Like I said, by it's very nature, terran upgrades are completely different than zerg. Terran armies are entirely ranged armies and gain much more utility from early upgrades than zerg armies do. Unless you are doing so for a very very specific reason, such as matching a protoss' +1 atk upgrade, you should really never rush upgrades as a zerg. Zerg doesn't have the sheer defensive strength of terran, so you can't just play defensively while upgrading quickly, like TLO did in that game. If you try that as a zerg you will just end up dying. Upgrades have their place in zerg MUs but in the early game I always fall on the side of more drones, more units, faster tech, rather than fast ups. | ||
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adius
United States249 Posts
User was warned for this post | ||
Harem
United States11393 Posts
On September 25 2010 01:03 sixghost wrote: Mr. Bitter, gsl spoiler + Show Spoiler + what do you think about cool getting something like 90 drones in G1 of his GSL match last night? Personally I don't see why zerg would ever need more than 60-65 drones, since you will mining out your main/nat by the time you would get enough expansions to need any more drones than that. I feel like any more drones than that just makes zerg even weaker in one of their worst aspects, which is the strength of a maxed army(that doesn't include ultras). It really seemed like that decision almost cost him a game that he well ahead in. + Show Spoiler + Cool actually agrees with you as he said that was a mistake. On September 25 2010 01:07 Milkis wrote: - You may have been nervous, but you won game 1. ▲ I didn't know but people told me I had about 90 drones. You can't win if you have that many drones, so I thought "Wow, I was really nervous" [T/N: Potentially, "Wow, he was really nervous"] He also said in the interview with Artosis that he only intended to make about 70 drones but didn't realize he overdroned and was wondering why his army size was so small. | ||
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Rahlekk
United States107 Posts
I know that Zerg is a macro-oriented race. But, I never find myself expanding at a specific time, just whenever. When should I expand? Also, what are the best things to keep up great macro? Also, what are some of your guy's favorite economic builds? (Tweaked depending on what you scout, of course) Thanks in advance. Macro is probably the thing I'm weakest at in SCII. | ||
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MrBitter
United States2940 Posts
On September 25 2010 01:03 sixghost wrote: Mr. Bitter, gsl spoiler + Show Spoiler + what do you think about cool getting something like 90 drones in G1 of his GSL match last night? Personally I don't see why zerg would ever need more than 60-65 drones, since you will mining out your main/nat by the time you would get enough expansions to need any more drones than that. I feel like any more drones than that just makes zerg even weaker in one of their worst aspects, which is the strength of a maxed army(that doesn't include ultras). It really seemed like that decision almost cost him a game that he well ahead in. + Show Spoiler + Yea, the only time I've ever managed to make that many drones was by mistake. I definitely think getting any more than 70 drones is a handicap. That said, I also think Zerg should ALWAYS exercise that backstab style. It's good for so much more than just keeping T in his base. It gives us vision of what he's doing, revealing his army composition and giving us good indicators for the attacking timing he wants... And if T makes a mistake, we can run past for some free economic damage. On September 25 2010 01:40 Rahlekk wrote: So I've asked this question already and browsed the thread, but my question still hasn't really been answered... I know that Zerg is a macro-oriented race. But, I never find myself expanding at a specific time, just whenever. When should I expand? Also, what are the best things to keep up great macro? Also, what are some of your guy's favorite economic builds? (Tweaked depending on what you scout, of course) Thanks in advance. Macro is probably the thing I'm weakest at in SCII. In general, unless you're trying to one-base, you need your first expo no later than 20-23. After that, there are no other real "expansion timings". Just try and stay one base ahead. A rough idea of what a game should look like: Zerg FE Opponent takes his nat >> Zerg responds by taking a 3rd Opponent takes his 3rd >> Zerg responds by taking a 4th etc, etc. There are certainly exceptions to that logic, but in general, that's the mindset you want to have as Zerg. As for keeping up great macro: The most helpful thing, in my opinion, is having one more hatchery than you have expansions. This gives your queens a place to dump extra energy, and also gives you a steady stream of extra larvae. An extra hatch is also great for creating funnels, making your bases much easier to defend. On September 25 2010 01:31 adius wrote: How about a muta+speed upgraded overlord allin designed to exploit Terran's atrophied Micro Muscles? lolwut? | ||
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ilbh
Brazil1606 Posts
On September 24 2010 23:11 Sfydjklm wrote: yep. this is the how to: http://www.sc2rep.com/replays/show/id/472 I'm not saying it is impossible to defend from 6 pool when you open with 14 gas 14 pool, but... in the replay, the guy executed his 7 pool extremely poorly. with only 1 spine crawler he almost won even thou it was in a not so good place (had nothing surrounding it, like a wall, mineral patch, pool, etc.). almost killed the hatch. the 6 pool I'm worried about is when they bring 2 drones a little ahead of the lings to place 2 spine crawlers somewhere only few drones or lings can attack it, in a narrow place like between a mineral patch, pool, wall. lings will arrive at the same time the spiners are placed. I think that even for PROs it is already hard to defend it properly, so I think I'll keep using 10 pool. if my opponent goes 14 pool I can just make 3 drones instead of 3 lings when the pool is done and I won't be so far behind in economy. | ||
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MrBitter
United States2940 Posts
On September 25 2010 02:10 ilbh wrote: I'm not saying it is impossible to defend from 6 pool when you open with 14 gas 14 pool, but... in the replay, the guy executed his 7 pool extremely poorly. with only 1 spine crawler he almost won even thou it was in a not so good place (had nothing surrounding it, like a wall, mineral patch, pool, etc.). almost killed the hatch. the 6 pool I'm worried about is when they bring 2 drones a little ahead of the lings to place 2 spine crawlers somewhere only few drones or lings can attack it, in a narrow place like between a mineral patch, pool, wall. lings will arrive at the same time the spiners are placed. I think that even for PROs it is already hard to defend it properly, so I think I'll keep using 10 pool. if my opponent goes 14 pool I can just make 3 drones instead of 3 lings when the pool is done and I won't be so far behind in economy. 10 pool is soo bad. At least go 12 pool. If you're struggling against this its because you're not scouting correctly. | ||
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Jayrod
1820 Posts
I think zerg needs lurkers again, but I also think zerg players should stop sending these joke army compositions at people over and over. You can blind counter zerg 90% of the time because its pretty much a given that they wont tech to tier 3 even though their opponent techs to tier 3 often in order to beat them. Why dont zergs explore some non-SC:BW strats? Thanks for the help! | ||
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adius
United States249 Posts
On September 25 2010 02:38 Jayrod wrote: You can blind counter zerg 90% of the time because its pretty much a given that they wont tech to tier 3 even though their opponent techs to tier 3 often in order to beat them. From the instant you make your first Spawning Pool, it takes 410 seconds minimum before you can start making an Ultralisk, assuming you go Straight for it, or 480 for Broodlords. Compared to the 235 for a Battlecruiser, or 260 for Carriers/Mothership Also zerg has one 'castable' to terran and protoss's two. That doesn't count queen transfuse and mothership but those are super situational. | ||
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Rahlekk
United States107 Posts
In general, unless you're trying to one-base, you need your first expo no later than 20-23. That's the rule-of-thumb I was looking for, thanks a bunch. ^.^ Which leads to another question. Once that second base is in construction, what do you do to prep that base for saturation? Pump Drones at your main, or just get 8 ready once it pops? | ||
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Sfydjklm
United States9218 Posts
On September 25 2010 01:07 sixghost wrote: How about any ZERG game? Like I said, by it's very nature, terran upgrades are completely different than zerg. Terran armies are entirely ranged armies and gain much more utility from early upgrades than zerg armies do. Unless you are doing so for a very very specific reason, such as matching a protoss' +1 atk upgrade, you should really never rush upgrades as a zerg. Zerg doesn't have the sheer defensive strength of terran, so you can't just play defensively while upgrading quickly, like TLO did in that game. If you try that as a zerg you will just end up dying. Upgrades have their place in zerg MUs but in the early game I always fall on the side of more drones, more units, faster tech, rather than fast ups. you start zerg upgrades early not because they save ur ass early on but because if you dont start em early youll fall behind lategame. Also i did cover all you said- start upgrades as early as you can unless there is imminent danger. | ||
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Sfydjklm
United States9218 Posts
On September 25 2010 02:10 ilbh wrote: I'm not saying it is impossible to defend from 6 pool when you open with 14 gas 14 pool, but... in the replay, the guy executed his 7 pool extremely poorly. with only 1 spine crawler he almost won even thou it was in a not so good place (had nothing surrounding it, like a wall, mineral patch, pool, etc.). almost killed the hatch. the 6 pool I'm worried about is when they bring 2 drones a little ahead of the lings to place 2 spine crawlers somewhere only few drones or lings can attack it, in a narrow place like between a mineral patch, pool, wall. lings will arrive at the same time the spiners are placed. I think that even for PROs it is already hard to defend it properly, so I think I'll keep using 10 pool. if my opponent goes 14 pool I can just make 3 drones instead of 3 lings when the pool is done and I won't be so far behind in economy. well these are two of the best zergs out there. If they are doing it with flaws that you can easily spot then you should have no problem spotting these flaws in whoever you are facing. and i meant 14 gas 13 pool ofc  | ||
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Nakmal
United States24 Posts
On September 25 2010 02:10 ilbh wrote: I'm not saying it is impossible to defend from 6 pool when you open with 14 gas 14 pool, but... in the replay, the guy executed his 7 pool extremely poorly. with only 1 spine crawler he almost won even thou it was in a not so good place (had nothing surrounding it, like a wall, mineral patch, pool, etc.). almost killed the hatch. the 6 pool I'm worried about is when they bring 2 drones a little ahead of the lings to place 2 spine crawlers somewhere only few drones or lings can attack it, in a narrow place like between a mineral patch, pool, wall. lings will arrive at the same time the spiners are placed. I think that even for PROs it is already hard to defend it properly, so I think I'll keep using 10 pool. if my opponent goes 14 pool I can just make 3 drones instead of 3 lings when the pool is done and I won't be so far behind in economy. I didn't watch the replay but if they built it on the edge of the creep it's because the opponent doesn't have vision of it so they don't even know that you're building it to attack it while it's being made. It's only when it finishes that they realize there's a spine crawler in their base. This of course is only if there's normal vision there, obviously overlords and other units will still see it if they're in range. | ||
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Sixes
Canada1123 Posts
Quick description: DQ, Terran going MMM+siege tanks with a push+ expand and second push. I try a bust (get some scouting but otherwise nothing of relevance), get mass lings and very fast upgrades (double evo early). Interesting points: - In the battles look at his siege tank kills, they get 1 (sometimes 0) kills per shot because of the ling armor, this seems to make a large difference. - Wow marines suck versus armored lings, as do marauders. - +2 attack lings eat through things fast. - I have an army size that is half the Terran's (just by mineral costs, about a 3rd if you count gas) but still defend multiple pushes. Mistakes I made: - Not enough drones, not enough macro, 3rd hatchery down too late. - At some point I throw banelings at the tank instead of the MMM but somehow still beat his army because lings rule. I am not a great player nor is the opponent (1100 diamond level) but I think it shows what ling upgrades can do. http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=151597 (and the old one for the same purpose, this is page 5 or something but same idea) http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=150784 | ||
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MrBitter
United States2940 Posts
On September 25 2010 02:53 adius wrote: From the instant you make your first Spawning Pool, it takes 410 seconds minimum before you can start making an Ultralisk, assuming you go Straight for it, or 480 for Broodlords. Compared to the 235 for a Battlecruiser, or 260 for Carriers/Mothership Also zerg has one 'castable' to terran and protoss's two. That doesn't count queen transfuse and mothership but those are super situational. ^^ Not to mention the super-quickly accessible Thors and Colossi. | ||
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Sixes
Canada1123 Posts
On September 25 2010 02:38 Jayrod wrote: Since this is the help me thread, help me understand why zerg thinks its okay to build like 2 unit types with no castables and win while both of the other races use balanced armies to spank one dimensional zerg armies. Why does zerg create an army that is so easy to counter when they have many tools at their disposal like hive tech and infestor? Do zerg players just not like caster units? I think zerg needs lurkers again, but I also think zerg players should stop sending these joke army compositions at people over and over. You can blind counter zerg 90% of the time because its pretty much a given that they wont tech to tier 3 even though their opponent techs to tier 3 often in order to beat them. Why dont zergs explore some non-SC:BW strats? Thanks for the help! Try it out and you will understand. The other races get that tech a lot faster (fast muta come out around the same time as a thor+medivac ...) and can defend in the meantime with fewer units (because they can wall off/block ramps and have ranged units up top). If you try to tech as zerg, for one it takes you way way longer and for two you can get destroyed because you need everything you have just to stay alive. The fastest zerg tech is probably the Dimaga build right now which aims to get 10-11 minute ultras (which by the way is later than any T or P tech rush) and it only does so by defending with masses of zerglings (because otherwise gas costs get prohibitive) which is risky in itself. If Zerg wants any kind of intermediate tech, add in a long build time and more gas costs. On the other hand Terran can rush a thor drop (while getting some hellion harass along the way) and if it doesn't work he has access to every unit except the battlecruiser and the ghost. Note as well that any reliance on static defense and in fact any extra building whatsoever costs zerg a worker. Terrans can drop a bunch of turrets to prevent muta harass in a pinch, if Zerg does that they lose 5-10 workers (which are very hard to remake due to larvae constraints). Not to mention zerg static defense is vastly inferior to siege tanks, turrets or bunkers (which not only don't cost a worker but are free). Another point of interest is that Terran high tech (the Thor or BC) can attack air and ground and do decently against almost all zerg units (the BC can be beaten by hydras or corruptors, which really have no other purpose ZvT, the thor does pretty well against most zerg units) and can be repaired so once you get one out they can hold off a far superior army (thor rushes will beat roach pushes because of the crazy repair). On the other hand getting out 1 ultra is useless. It will get kited, shot from the air or just plain mauled by marauders and tanks by the time it gets out. + Show Spoiler + If you want great use of Zerg tech, go see the first Cool game from yesterday (it's free on gomtv). He uses all the useful tech (no hydras because of tanks, no corruptors because there are no BCs and no broodlords because they come out so slowly and get annihilated by vikings). He still only has a few unit types because zerg starts with 9 units to Terran's 13 and of those 9: - 3 extremely situational to the point of being useless: corruptor v BC, hydra v ... mass banshee but no tanks?, broodlord v Terran who didn't kill you in the first half hour and has no starports. - One pure caster that does very little to mech (infestor) and is also pretty situational - 5 units which Terran has several very hard counters to (ling vs hellion or siege tank or choke points, baneling vs tank or anything that isn't a marine, Muta and thors or marines, roaches and tanks or marauders, ultra vs marauders or banshees or BCs or anything with a choke point). So what it comes down to is Terran can easily tech to and make a balanced composition with any 2-3 core units and he has hard counters to everything zerg (hellion thor, tank thor, MMM, MMM with some thors, MMM with some tanks, marines and tanks etc). So please, try it out and tell us how it goes. | ||
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Sfydjklm
United States9218 Posts
wait nevermind dont answer that. Just remembered the Hasuobs vs Dimaga game back when roach was still 1 supply. So, die? unless.. hasn anyone tried a couple ultras for FF busting with mass banelings? that's the only thing that could work. | ||
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Sixes
Canada1123 Posts
On September 25 2010 05:26 Sfydjklm wrote: wtf am i supposed to do against protoss 200/200? it seems liek the ultra nerf really dented zergs ability(that was limited even before the nerf) to counter protoss late game. wait nevermind dont answer that. Just remembered the Hasuobs vs Dimaga game back when roach was still 1 supply. So, die? The solution very much depends on the 200/200 in question but it's a problem in any case. If he is going stalker colossus ultras still do good damage, just watch out for the immortals. Really stalkers only have 2 solutions I have found late game, lings or ultras (they blink takes care of broodlords, mutas or hydras can do ok if you have him outmacroed and there are no colossi/phoenixes). Infestors can't even keep them from blinking so that isn't an option. So, ultras ... yep, I think that's the best we have. Not a perfect answer but I don't think there is one. Burrow play is out due to observers (in the mid game if you don't see a robo, burrowed roaches are surprisingly good against stalkers) as is any reliance on creep. Mass hydra roach melts to even a few colossi ... really mass lings and ultras are the only things I see, the lings can help take shots from stalkers and get the ultras in, once the ultras hit they still do damage. As one of the pros stated if a protoss has you outmacroed at any point you lose. If not, throw ultras at him until he dies (and be ready for a quick tech switch to mutas if he get too many zealots/immortals/colossi). | ||
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