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On September 24 2010 02:54 skindzer wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2010 02:34 Sfydjklm wrote:On September 24 2010 01:50 Sixes wrote:On September 24 2010 01:03 hakundo wrote:
I've also got trouble as a ~1050 diamond player versus Protoss who either double pylon + cannon my ramp or do ~ 3pylons 3cannons close to the ramp, so the sunkens can't hit them from the top.
Then they go for some gateway units / FE. Nydus feels like an allin and if I break out of my base, I feel sooooo far behind :-( Remember that he costs himself a huge amount when doing this, you aren't far behind. Just break it then apply pressure while expanding. Ideally you want to spot this with your 9 OL and get a drone down there to delay it by blocking the placements and harassing the probe. Preferably delay it enough that you can get some lings out to tackle the pylons. This sort of delay also means his placement will be less perfect and your eventual roaches can have an easier time breaking it. you cant break it cause forcefields lolz. On September 24 2010 02:03 skindzer wrote:On September 24 2010 01:03 hakundo wrote:
I've also got trouble as a ~1050 diamond player versus Protoss who either double pylon + cannon my ramp or do ~ 3pylons 3cannons close to the ramp, so the sunkens can't hit them from the top.
Use a tumor. + Show Spoiler +I just build the spine crawler the moment i see the pylons going up that way he cant cannon up the ramp. If he gets cannons up the ramp things get hard but as long as they stay down and you stay calm youll always end up ahead, hes investing 350 in "nothing" early game while you can invest 100 in a single defense to stop it and just power drones those other 250 minerals. Also, even if you need to hit a cannon first your spine crawler will end up alive cause the cannon wont be able to hit while its burrowing because it wont have vision. he just said they place cannons so that sunken cant hit em from the top of the ramp. Going up the ramp with cannons isnt the point of that strat at all so it makes me question what level you're on. And powering drones is only good for that mucch, eventually youll face diminishing returns and both 4 gate followup and quick expo will set u far behind(he'll poke u to death with stalkers while 4 gating and if he expos haha good luck doing anything. Im not saying to power drones as a way to replace having a natural, im just saying that it gives you a "free round" of drones and also i didnt say the purpose of that "strategy" was to have cannons up in the main, just that this prevents it. But yeah, i probably havent played against this particulary, maybe what he/you mean is that they place cannons far from the pylons? Care to share a rep? Cause ive never played against what i believe you are saying. Or add me and we can try it :D
yea its the fairly standard 3 line build consisting from pylon wall, cannon, more pylons and more cannons.
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On September 24 2010 04:25 Sheth wrote:
I'd like to ask, how do you counter reapers on maps with cliff advantages. IE Kulas, That one newer map Delta Quadrant. Whats your standard build order there?
Thanks. Sheth
other then straight up dying, try the check build with skipping ling speed in favor of roaches. It works well-ish.
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I think I have read the entire thread, but what is this Check build? I have heard it mentioned a couple of times. Is it just skipping ling speed and getting roaches? Sorry if it's been covered.
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On September 24 2010 04:25 Sheth wrote:
I'd like to ask, how do you counter reapers on maps with cliff advantages. IE Kulas, That one newer map Delta Quadrant. Whats your standard build order there?
Thanks. Sheth
I thumbs down those maps 
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On September 24 2010 09:29 Saracen wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2010 04:25 Sheth wrote:
I'd like to ask, how do you counter reapers on maps with cliff advantages. IE Kulas, That one newer map Delta Quadrant. Whats your standard build order there?
Thanks. Sheth
I thumbs down those maps
As silly as it sounds thats the best advice for every non-professional. The only zergs that really should be practicing such maps are tournament players. If you aren't worried about a specific map pool due to tournament reasons you're better off saving yourself the headache and thumbsing said maps.
edit: just read it was Sheth who asked, doh! He would actually enjoy hearing a legitimate response to reaper play on kulas as he's one of the few zerg heros.
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I have way more success going mutas against banshees than going hydras, but I find it weird...
can I really have mutas in time to fight banshees? is it the proper answer? I'm talking about 2 base mutas, when I open with 14 hatch 13 pool against someone rushing for banshees from 1 base.
I do also make some extra queens. usually 1 or 2.
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On September 24 2010 04:25 Sheth wrote:
I'd like to ask, how do you counter reapers on maps with cliff advantages. IE Kulas, That one newer map Delta Quadrant. Whats your standard build order there?
Thanks. Sheth
Don't play Kulas. Whoever designed this map made sure that it is designatedly bad for zerg.
The main answer for Delta Quadrant would be "spread your overlords to gain tons of vision". I think that's the main difference between it and other maps - I usually put one directly on the Choke between Main/Nat, one at the Destroying Rocks and one in the general direction of his base.
Other then the careful placement I really don't see anything different from most other maps if fighting Reapers.
(extensive version of my gerneral approach in the spoiler, not sure if you wan't to hear all this ^^)
+ Show Spoiler +
On Delta I'd do the same thing I always do and actually feel very safe with against reaper - I do a normal 21 Hatch Speedling opening (i believe it has already been described in this thread, I do a variant thats very similar to the one of DarkForce). Use your first Queen to inject larva, the second 25 Energy should be spend for a creep tumor, afterwards walk her over to the Hatch that's just being build. There may be a Reaper or even two giving up some shots on your Hatch, but it should not endanger it and your queen should keep them occupied till your speed finishes.
When the first inject pops comit 3-4 larva to Speedlings (depending on how much of your first 4 are still living), use the rest for Drones and put Drones back on gas and build a Roach Warren. The Speedlings you have now can scare away the roughly 3 Reapers that he should have right now. Be sure to not supplyblock yourself and produce 5 Roaches as soon as possible (should be possible with the next larva pop). With those Roaches and the leftover Speedling you are very save to drone up a bit and use your next 100 Gas for Lairtech.
Your following moves depends on how many Reapers he actually builds - if he goes for an extreme mass you should consider steadily adding Roaches as well, but as soon as you notice him stopping or throttling his production switch to mass speedlings. I recommend building an early Baneling Nest while teching as well, its a huge help when trying to hold any kind of Scv all-in.
If you were able to hold a push or snipe lots of his reapers you can go instantly go for mutas, else I personally obt for Roach and Baneling Speed to be on the save side against any kind of agression.
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On September 24 2010 09:47 ilbh wrote:
I have way more success going mutas against banshees than going hydras, but I find it weird...
can I really have mutas in time to fight banshees? is it the proper answer? I'm talking about 2 base mutas, when I open with 14 hatch 13 pool against someone rushing for banshees from 1 base.
I do also make some extra queens. usually 1 or 2.
no u wont have mutas in time but neither will u have hydras. Queens is the only answer to banshees pretty much.
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On September 24 2010 09:47 ilbh wrote:
an I really have mutas in time to fight banshees? is it the proper answer? I'm talking about 2 base mutas, when I open with 14 hatch 13 pool against someone rushing for banshees from 1 base.
Short answer: No you can't.
Long answer: if he's really rushing to banshees, he needs exactly 170 seconds after his factory has startet till the first one is on the field. Lair+Spire+Muta need 213 seconds. You could argue that the flighttime cuts into this difference, but this would ignore the fact that he will usually start his factory a lot earlier than you your Lairtech.
I completly agree with you, it's a lot better to fight Banshees with Mutas instead of Hydras because Hydras are utterly useless for anything else, but against a rushed Banshee non of these two is a possible answer (barring the possibility to skip Lingspeed, but that's just suicidial).
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On September 24 2010 09:29 Saracen wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2010 04:25 Sheth wrote:
I'd like to ask, how do you counter reapers on maps with cliff advantages. IE Kulas, That one newer map Delta Quadrant. Whats your standard build order there?
Thanks. Sheth
I thumbs down those maps
You havent updated the op =(
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On September 21 2010 11:34 Saracen wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2010 10:59 numLoCK wrote:
atm liquipedia and such seem to have very limited information on build orders.
Can you hook me up with a basic build order for ZvT and the basic variations and scouting timings for say, mass reaper and for 3rax? Or actually, just basic variations and scouting timings for whatever
that terran is up too would be great. I'm glad you're switching to Z  So what I do is: 14 gas 13 pool 15 overlord 15 queen, take drones off of gas, research speed 1 pair of zerglings 21 expand 22 overlord all drones with the first spawn larva26 queen, put drones back on gas get lair once the queen finishes
Hey Saracen, just wanted to thank you for this small little tip "all drones with the first spawn larva". I've changed my game because of this tip. I used to cut drones way to soon and it was costing me games. Now I find that my econ is in much better shape.
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How, in ZvP, do you deal with the build where protoss gets an expansion, techs to a temlar + mass gateway army, and then takes a third while continuing to upgrade, pressure a bit but not commit, and then just crush you with a gateway/templar army with lots of storms, charge, blink, and upgrades. I've tried lots of stuff against it, but can't find a way to beat a good protoss player who does this, even if I gain the advantage. Hydra/roach seems to melt to mass storms and the huge number of units, and even if I secure 2 expos and the gold and get hive tech, when he mixes immortals in the mix, ultras just evaporate. Broodlords do ok, but they're really expensive, and the corrupters are useless against a protoss whose not getting colossus. What do I do against this?
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waddup zergies i was pretty tilted about this whole patch thing so i'm playing alienware tournament today vs Select and im like here's my big fuck you to all the terrans out there yo.
![[image loading]](http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y298/pppp7/Screenshot2010-09-2322_20_08.jpg)
repping zergies for lyfe yall!
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Hey, I really need help on my lategame ZvT. What should you do against a dude who just masses thor/hellion midgame and then transitions to thor/marauder lategame? I would've gotten something other than 200/200 roaches (which suck) if I hadn't been worried about a thor/hellion midgame push at any point before ultras, which is only defendable by mass roach as far as I can tell. Anyway, if you better zerg players see anything I should've done here (expanded earlier?)
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/7108203/Met...10).SC2Replay
(~1200-1300 point zerg for reference)
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On September 24 2010 11:06 Newguy wrote:
How, in ZvP, do you deal with the build where protoss gets an expansion, techs to a temlar + mass gateway army, and then takes a third while continuing to upgrade, pressure a bit but not commit, and then just crush you with a gateway/templar army with lots of storms, charge, blink, and upgrades. I've tried lots of stuff against it, but can't find a way to beat a good protoss player who does this, even if I gain the advantage. Hydra/roach seems to melt to mass storms and the huge number of units, and even if I secure 2 expos and the gold and get hive tech, when he mixes immortals in the mix, ultras just evaporate. Broodlords do ok, but they're really expensive, and the corrupters are useless against a protoss whose not getting colossus. What do I do against this?
The best answer I have found is to use roaches. If at all possible try to use speedlings and maybe a few mutas to harass and slow down the 3rd. Make sure you macro up (the toss player completely forsakes map control on this build).
By the time the attack you are describing comes you should be able to have ultras or broodlords ... generally ultras+roaches do well versus that kind of toss (use roach burrow to let the ultras get in there then the roaches add damage). Roaches don't take too much damage if you burrow them as a reaction to storm and move them out of it a little. I have won games with just mass roach versus this composition but it requires good upgrades and burrow use to regen (the key point being that there is a window where the toss has templars but no observers).
If observers do show up I guess it's ultra or broodlord (depending on stalker numbers). I go ultra myself because they are more mobile and punish the lack of mobility on zealot templar (keep scouts around and if he is rushing to defend, send 10 lings in the back to pick of a few HTs, the high energy ones are worth a lot to him).
Mainly don't use hydras or mass lings as they melt to storm and mutas can be good in small numbers but become very vulnerable to storm in large numbers (carpet storm will kill a lot).
This protoss composition tends to be very easy to harass as he won't have too many stalkers early (needs gas for templar) and he needs a ton of production buildings and pylons (so more area and more targets).
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On September 24 2010 07:21 Sfydjklm wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2010 04:09 Sixes wrote:On September 24 2010 02:34 Sfydjklm wrote:On September 24 2010 01:50 Sixes wrote:On September 24 2010 01:03 hakundo wrote:
I've also got trouble as a ~1050 diamond player versus Protoss who either double pylon + cannon my ramp or do ~ 3pylons 3cannons close to the ramp, so the sunkens can't hit them from the top.
Then they go for some gateway units / FE. Nydus feels like an allin and if I break out of my base, I feel sooooo far behind :-( Remember that he costs himself a huge amount when doing this, you aren't far behind. Just break it then apply pressure while expanding. Ideally you want to spot this with your 9 OL and get a drone down there to delay it by blocking the placements and harassing the probe. Preferably delay it enough that you can get some lings out to tackle the pylons. This sort of delay also means his placement will be less perfect and your eventual roaches can have an easier time breaking it. you cant break it cause forcefields lolz. On September 24 2010 02:03 skindzer wrote:On September 24 2010 01:03 hakundo wrote:
I've also got trouble as a ~1050 diamond player versus Protoss who either double pylon + cannon my ramp or do ~ 3pylons 3cannons close to the ramp, so the sunkens can't hit them from the top.
Use a tumor. + Show Spoiler +I just build the spine crawler the moment i see the pylons going up that way he cant cannon up the ramp. If he gets cannons up the ramp things get hard but as long as they stay down and you stay calm youll always end up ahead, hes investing 350 in "nothing" early game while you can invest 100 in a single defense to stop it and just power drones those other 250 minerals. Also, even if you need to hit a cannon first your spine crawler will end up alive cause the cannon wont be able to hit while its burrowing because it wont have vision. he just said they place cannons so that sunken cant hit em from the top of the ramp. Going up the ramp with cannons isnt the point of that strat at all so it makes me question what level you're on. And powering drones is only good for that mucch, eventually youll face diminishing returns and both 4 gate followup and quick expo will set u far behind(he'll poke u to death with stalkers while 4 gating and if he expos haha good luck doing anything. If the player has multiple sentries, 3 cannons 3 pylons (at your base) all before you have a few roaches, you have done something wrong. Timing for roaches is around when a toss has 5 zealots coming up your ramp on Steppes ... If you see this stuff, 5 RR, it gives you the roaches to break through and enough for the expand. A protoss player can't have 3 cannons 3 pylons (at your base) and sentries blocking your ramp by the 5 minute mark. In fact I'm pretty sure even just getting sentries there would be tough, there's a reason Tester does a pylon and cannon block, if he could just get sentries and get the Z stuck I doubt he would bother (he needs 3? sentries for a permanent forcefield and they delay tech with their gas cost). Remember as well that any fast cannon (so forge first) build delays gateways (which delays cyber). i dunno what to say to that because this is not what happens at all.
Please describe how you let a toss get 3 cannons and 3 pylons between your main and nat but out of spine crawler range before you got roaches, roaches do just fine against cannons that aren't up a ramp.
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Another question on why pros don't do something.....
Why don't pros ever open 3 queens, only 2? This is something I find myself doing a lot. A queen is 150 minerals, the cost of a spine crawler. In return, you get
a)Free Creep tumor
b)Decent DPS
c)Meatsheild
d)Heal.
To me, I often see progamers lay down 2 or 3 spine crawlers anticipating a timing push. I don't see why they don't add a queen in there BO, as it adds protection against air, basically seems a more rounded defense option then another spine crawler. They can be used to block the ramp against hellion harrass, kite zealots, heal roaches/spine crawlers, and make your 3rd expo come up faster.
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On September 24 2010 15:52 Half wrote:
Another question on why pros don't do something.....
Why don't pros ever open 3 queens, only 2? This is something I find myself doing a lot. A queen is 150 minerals, the cost of a spine crawler. In return, you get
a)Free Creep tumor
b)Decent DPS
c)Meatsheild
d)Heal.
To me, I often see progamers lay down 2 or 3 spine crawlers anticipating a timing push. I don't see why they don't add a queen in there BO, as it adds protection against air, basically seems a more rounded defense option then another spine crawler. They can be used to block the ramp against hellion harrass, kite zealots, heal roaches/spine crawlers, and make your 3rd expo come up faster.
I wonder the same, but mostly for ZvP as it would almost completely nullify any void ray cheese. There are so many times when I watch pro replays where the zerg is so vulernable to quick void rays due to 2 queens and unreliable scouting. It blows my mind!
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I have been thinking about doing a new build, and I want to hear your thoughts about it.
The idea is mostly thought to cripple a 2-base terran and protoss.
Standard: 14 pool - 14 gas -16 hatch.
Get metabolic boost (is a must have). Keep 2 drones in gas, and tech for lair just as soon as possible. The other hatch keeps pumping queens (in case of banshee or phoenixes). While you tech, get a baneling nest, get second or third gas geyser. Once you hit lair research overlord speed and overlord drop immediatly. While researching you get some banelings. Once done, you make a 2-pronged banelingdrop in your opponents mineral line. If you have success then you can more or less destroy 70% of his harvesters.
I know the idea isn't new, but I would just want to hear some higher level players if they have some ideas on how to make it work better, or if it is even viable and what pro/cons there is. Is the timing drop too late and too risky and so forth.
Edit: I tested the build, and I was done with the upgrades and banelings at 9 min mark. That was with 2 queens and minimal defenses. Since it takes forever to research drop, you can easily delay the speed upgrade and thus only getting 2 geysers instead of 3.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://img834.imageshack.us/img834/9557/58110666.png)
