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DaemonX
545 Posts
This indisputably works - but it relies on 100% certainty prediction of the path your opponent is taking. This is quite map, scout and situation dependant. Example of working: your lord sees him smashing through the rocks on SS. Burrow your banes in the middle ground or just on the other side of the second rocks. Also you gotta hit that X key RIGHT on time or you insta-lose. | ||
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LaZaZiO
United States17 Posts
On September 23 2010 11:09 Sixes wrote: I'll answer this from my 1100+ Diamond. Something that seems to be currently overlooked is the roach. Not the roach as a part of roach hydra, but just the roach. Super fast mutas are very hit or miss (if he goes fast phoenix/mass marine you lose) whereas roach into muta supported with speedlings gives you more time to scout (before committing to mutas) and roaches are great against zealots. My advice, put some pressure on. I have found a gas pool into roach (skip speed if necessary) to be quite nice. Get the roaches up get an expand up nice and safe, get speed a little later (you don't need super early speedlings vs zealots, you need them for stalkers). On most maps you can pressure his expand, expand back door or main back door a lot with just 8-10 roaches while still getting your expand up and getting upgrades (notably lair, roach speed ling speed and either carapace or melee attack). The roaches force him to spend gas on stalkers and sentries (in rather large amounts) which slows down tech and if he doesn't get enough, crush him. Remember to pick off odd pylons, proxy pylons and anything used as a wall. Now you need an overseer (or some lucky lings) to get scouting info. Once you have that, take a third or tech up to whatever is necessary. Also try to deny observers (even just by having some spore crawlers around the main) so he has to play in the dark a little. Any time I go fast roach vs his initial zealots, he quickly tech switches to stalkers and just rick rolls me. Should I just fend off the attack and tech switch to lings, or just sit back on spine crawlers and roaches and start droning? Putting on early pressure with roaches seems really sketchy because they are so slow without their speed and will get raped by stalkers off creep. Its really impossible to put early pressure on with roaches as early as he FE's without losing all my roaches and then dying. | ||
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Enyalus
United States135 Posts
Does anyone have any tips on quickly locating/centering your various nydus worms spread throughout the map? I've been wanting to play with the idea of late-midgame/late-game getting nydus worms at each of my bases and around certain positions on certain maps for quick reinforcement. But actually locating them precisely via clicking on the minimap is time consuming and my macro slips concentrating on it. Am I forced to hotkey each nydus worm individually (7-0 keys or something) or is there something akin to the [shift] [backspace] trick like for the hatcheries? Should I just discontinue this line of strategy altogether? Thanks, TL. | ||
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sixghost
United States2096 Posts
On September 23 2010 11:47 Enyalus wrote: I have what feels like a horrendously newbie question: Does anyone have any tips on quickly locating/centering your various nydus worms spread throughout the map? I've been wanting to play with the idea of late-midgame/late-game getting nydus worms at each of my bases and around certain positions on certain maps for quick reinforcement. But actually locating them precisely via clicking on the minimap is time consuming and my macro slips concentrating on it. Am I forced to hotkey each nydus worm individually (7-0 keys or something) or is there something akin to the [shift] [backspace] trick like for the hatcheries? Should I just discontinue this line of strategy altogether? Thanks, TL. The easiest way would be to change your hotkey setup so they you have each of your queens on different hotkeys. On September 23 2010 11:30 LaZaZiO wrote: + Show Spoiler + On September 23 2010 11:09 Sixes wrote: Any time I go fast roach vs his initial zealots, he quickly tech switches to stalkers and just rick rolls me. Should I just fend off the attack and tech switch to lings, or just sit back on spine crawlers and roaches and start droning? Putting on early pressure with roaches seems really sketchy because they are so slow without their speed and will get raped by stalkers off creep. Its really impossible to put early pressure on with roaches as early as he FE's without losing all my roaches and then dying. Like you said, just remember when you go roach, you don't need to make only roaches. Getting ling speed when you open roach allows you to change your unit composition based on whether he is more zealot or stalker heavy. The key is to get your lings behind his army and attacking the stalkers which either forces him to pull his zealots back or his stalkers will end up taking a ton of damage. | ||
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sooch
Canada299 Posts
On September 23 2010 11:47 Enyalus wrote: I have what feels like a horrendously newbie question: Does anyone have any tips on quickly locating/centering your various nydus worms spread throughout the map? I've been wanting to play with the idea of late-midgame/late-game getting nydus worms at each of my bases and around certain positions on certain maps for quick reinforcement. But actually locating them precisely via clicking on the minimap is time consuming and my macro slips concentrating on it. Am I forced to hotkey each nydus worm individually (7-0 keys or something) or is there something akin to the [shift] [backspace] trick like for the hatcheries? Should I just discontinue this line of strategy altogether? Thanks, TL. There is no trick to bounce between nydus exits easily. On September 23 2010 11:26 DaemonX wrote: One thing that works against mass thors,but is quite situational, is burrowed banes. 16-25 burrowed banelings in correctly overlapping splash acting as land mines can a thor force, killing all scvs and half the thors for a fraction of the cost. Then you get a ling surround and mop up on creep. This indisputably works - but it relies on 100% certainty prediction of the path your opponent is taking. This is quite map, scout and situation dependant. Example of working: your lord sees him smashing through the rocks on SS. Burrow your banes in the middle ground or just on the other side of the second rocks. Also you gotta hit that X key RIGHT on time or you insta-lose. From my experience it's not so much "situational" as it is "reliant on luck." On top of correctly predicting the attack path, you have to pray to god that your mine field doesn't get scanned otherwise you're fairly boned, and you lose a large investment of gas for nothing. Also, banelings burrowed in anticipation of a coming attack are unable to be mobilized against something else, like a second attack or a drop or something. | ||
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greycubed
United States615 Posts
On September 21 2010 11:47 skindzer wrote: Nope. This one is easy, i can answer pretty sure (1200+ Z). First of, i LOVE when P tries to cannon rush me My record agains this is like 12-2 on my favor. Even when unscouted. Remember that Sunkens OUTRANGE cannon Both are range 7. | ||
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FREEloss_ca
Canada603 Posts
I'm having a lot of trouble with 3 warpgate pushes. The push seems to come a lot faster than the 4/5 gate push. It's especially hard to deal with on close positions and on Blistering Sands where they can abuse back door entrances. Protoss also seem to take their natural a lot quicker with this build (compared to 4/5gate which are more all-in). I usually do 15hatch/14 pool. Against 4/5 gate I can have 3 spine crawlers up with lings built/on the way by the time the push comes. I usually have both queens at the choke for extra DPS and transfusions. 3 gate seems to hit me just after my spines go up, sometimes while they're building, before I have enough lings out, and before ling speed is completed. I've also tried 13gas/pool with expo on 18. I get lings/speedlings out quick enough, but then I'm forced into a position to constantly spam lings. Protoss like to go zealot/sentry heavy when they see this, and as a result I end up being way behind in economy, that is, if I can survive it. Meanwhile, Protoss has taken their own natural and has been pumping probes, where as I'm sitting at like ~20 drones. My practice partners and I have been training this build over and over (my Protoss partners doing the 3gate push). I'm currently 0-7 against them when they do it. I'm at a loss as to what i should be doing. When should I be getting my gas with 15hatch/14pool? I've tried getting it on 16 to get ling speed faster, but then I'm strapped for minerals. I've also tried getting it around 20, just after my queen has popped out, but now I have no ling speed when I need it. Roaches also don't seem like the call. I can't muster up enough in time to stop the push, and without speed, they're incredibly immobile; this immobility is especially an issue on Blistering sands, when they break down the rocks and hit me from both entrances. | ||
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Sixes
Canada1123 Posts
On September 23 2010 11:30 LaZaZiO wrote: + Show Spoiler + On September 23 2010 11:09 Sixes wrote: Any time I go fast roach vs his initial zealots, he quickly tech switches to stalkers and just rick rolls me. Should I just fend off the attack and tech switch to lings, or just sit back on spine crawlers and roaches and start droning? Putting on early pressure with roaches seems really sketchy because they are so slow without their speed and will get raped by stalkers off creep. Its really impossible to put early pressure on with roaches as early as he FE's without losing all my roaches and then dying. You don't make a ton of roaches, 5-6 are enough to hold off up to 8 zealots and any good protoss will retreat with his 4 gate (you can usually inflict a few losses). At this point you have to face either a delayed 4 gate (delayed because the 2 gate delays it) or some kind of tech or some kind of expand. The reaction? Scout. Get your upgrades get drones on the expand and probably get 2-3 spine crawlers for good measure. You should have some lings and keep them moving to catch proxy pylons, void rays, lone stalkers and kill his scouts. Between sacing an overlord and poking his ramp you should know if he is 4 gating, teching or expanding. If tech, get a lair and put down a few spore crawlers (detection and anti void ray) if you think it's too late for lair tech to kick in. If expand, take a third and poke around to see what damage you can do. If 4 gate, get more lings and roaches while teching and teach him not to play 1 base all ins. Get ling speed and +1 attack on the lings (+1 armor if you see forge) | ||
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GPhalanX
Australia8 Posts
New to TL but been constantly reading posts. I am a zerg player myself trying to make it up to diamond. I am currently in the gold league. Lately I have been trouble defeating terrans opening in 1/1/1. It is so versatile that I need to constantly sac an overlord to see what he is upto. What's your solid counter to this opening? Early 5RR reinforce with lings? I will post some replays as soon as I am off work. Cheers! | ||
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Sixes
Canada1123 Posts
On September 23 2010 13:14 FREEloss_ca wrote: Currently 1000pt Diamond; around 1300-1500pt skillwise (just based on friends/clanmates I play against regularly) I'm having a lot of trouble with 3 warpgate pushes. The push seems to come a lot faster than the 4/5 gate push. It's especially hard to deal with on close positions and on Blistering Sands where they can abuse back door entrances. Protoss also seem to take their natural a lot quicker with this build (compared to 4/5gate which are more all-in). I usually do 15hatch/14 pool. Against 4/5 gate I can have 3 spine crawlers up with lings built/on the way by the time the push comes. I usually have both queens at the choke for extra DPS and transfusions. 3 gate seems to hit me just after my spines go up, sometimes while they're building, before I have enough lings out, and before ling speed is completed. I've also tried 13gas/pool with expo on 18. I get lings/speedlings out quick enough, but then I'm forced into a position to constantly spam lings. Protoss like to go zealot/sentry heavy when they see this, and as a result I end up being way behind in economy, that is, if I can survive it. Meanwhile, Protoss has taken their own natural and has been pumping probes, where as I'm sitting at like ~20 drones. My practice partners and I have been training this build over and over (my Protoss partners doing the 3gate push). I'm currently 0-7 against them when they do it. I'm at a loss as to what i should be doing. When should I be getting my gas with 15hatch/14pool? I've tried getting it on 16 to get ling speed faster, but then I'm strapped for minerals. I've also tried getting it around 20, just after my queen has popped out, but now I have no ling speed when I need it. Roaches also don't seem like the call. I can't muster up enough in time to stop the push, and without speed, they're incredibly immobile; this immobility is especially an issue on Blistering sands, when they break down the rocks and hit me from both entrances. I would suggest some form of roach build ... 14 pool 14 gas (you don't need the absolute fastest ling speed vP) then get either the expand or the roach warren on 19-21 and the other shortly thereafter. Get speed at 100 gas then make roaches (you need roaches if it goes zealot heavy in my experience). Put down spines depending on scouting if you feel they are necessary. On blistering sands I almost invariably 5RR against toss (unless they drop a FE) because the 5 roaches can break the back rocks while you get +1 attack speedlings. Then it's runby heaven and the threat of runbys is a great defense while I macro up. Remember that a protoss can not, and I mean CAN NOT base race your upgraded speedlings (especially when you have 2 bases with crawlers). If you lose your natural and he loses everything, you win. | ||
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sixghost
United States2096 Posts
On September 23 2010 13:21 GPhalanX wrote: Hi guys, New to TL but been constantly reading posts. I am a zerg player myself trying to make it up to diamond. I am currently in the gold league. Lately I have been trouble defeating terrans opening in 1/1/1. It is so versatile that I need to constantly sac an overlord to see what he is upto. What's your solid counter to this opening? Early 5RR reinforce with lings? I will post some replays as soon as I am off work. Cheers! Could you be more specific about the kinds of 1/1/1 openings that give you trouble? | ||
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SeaSmoke
United States326 Posts
![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/AgqQ7.jpg) Thanks again and keep it going! Edit: SIX game streak  | ||
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GPhalanX
Australia8 Posts
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sixghost
United States2096 Posts
On September 23 2010 14:47 GPhalanX wrote: i dont specifically know the variation but it ends up in 5-7 thors and 8-10 tanks along with an MMM ball. with the thors in front as meat shields. Thanks, Uhhh, you'd have to post a replay of that, because getting that army in any reasonable amount of time seems impossible. That's something like 2800+ gas depending on upgrades/amount of medivacs. | ||
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skindzer
Chile5114 Posts
Oh that seems to be the case then? Im remember being able to hit cannons without them hitting my crawler, even if i recall wrong tough i still can kill the pylons without the cannon hitting the spire so its pretty much the same. | ||
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skindzer
Chile5114 Posts
Leave the cutesy stuff, the proxy shit the hidden tech or whatever to Terrans or Toss. This stuff WONT help you in the long run. Most opponents youll find on ladder SUCK, like literally they have NO IDEA what to do and are pretty much one trick ponys. This is specially true for Protoss players (mostly because terran can pretty much can do whatever the fuck they want and still win, literally you can roll a dice as a terran to decide what building or unit to build and still win.) DO NOT become one trick ponys. Most P youll face only do and only known 4 gate. Im a 1300+ Z player and is the ONLY THING i see, whats even more idiotic is that once it fails they have NO IDEA what to do, i once saw a guy who researched shields after his +1 upgrade because he probably never had a game go "so far". Theres no easy way to learn to play Z. Just the hard and long. Edit: Im not saying 5RR is a bad build, is just that ive read many zerg who dont know what to do besides that. | ||
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skindzer
Chile5114 Posts
On September 23 2010 13:14 FREEloss_ca wrote: I'm having a lot of trouble with 3 warpgate pushes. The push seems to come a lot faster than the 4/5 , gate push. It's especially hard to deal with on close positions and on Blistering Sands where they can abuse back door entrances. Protoss also seem to take their natural a lot quicker with this build (compared to 4/5gate which are more all-in). I usually do 15hatch/14 pool. Against 4/5 gate I can have 3 spine crawlers up with lings built/on the way by the time the push comes. I usually have both queens at the choke for extra DPS and transfusions. . Well getting a Hatch on 15 on a 2 player map isnt the best way to prevent an early attack. 15 Hatch is imo pretty much do or die, plus theres no point on having a hatch with no drones, i find it so much better to just get the hatch on 20/21 having ling speed ready so im prepared for any kind of early shit. Also on spire crawlers, they suck, i pretty much never make them except against hellions, this is specially true on blistering when they can just ignore them and go for the backdoor. Just drone till 26 and mass lings, try the +1 melee if it suits you. As an extra note on blistering sand, DONT wait for the P army to reach your nat to engage or youll get destroyed by force fields. Also remember that on this maps you pretty much have a map hack with the naga towers during the ENTIRE early game so he should never caught you by surprise. Alternatively you can mass roaches but by the nature of the map i find lings to be better for scouting purpose + abusing the backdoor. | ||
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SeaSmoke
United States326 Posts
On September 23 2010 16:28 skindzer wrote: BTW as a general advice for all zerg players trying to get better just forget about early attacks, scrap that 5RR or early hatch or whatever. Learn the most standard BO for each matchup, like those posted from Saracen or Darkforce and play them till dead. Leave the cutesy stuff, the proxy shit the hidden tech or whatever to Terrans or Toss. This stuff WONT help you in the long run. Most opponents youll find on ladder SUCK, like literally they have NO IDEA what to do and are pretty much one trick ponys. This is specially true for Protoss players (mostly because terran can pretty much can do whatever the fuck they want and still win, literally you can roll a dice as a terran to decide what building or unit to build and still win.) DO NOT become one trick ponys. Most P youll face only do and only known 4 gate. Im a 1300+ Z player and is the ONLY THING i see, whats even more idiotic is that once it fails they have NO IDEA what to do, i once saw a guy who researched shields after his +1 upgrade because he probably never had a game go "so far". Theres no easy way to learn to play Z. Just the hard and long. Edit: Im not saying 5RR is a bad build, is just that ive read many zerg who dont know what to do besides that. i agree with this so much...i love the 5RR build but I definitely abused it and had a serious problem playing toss straight up afterwards. Especially because i was promoted to diamond and got to around 900 pts with it. then when the opponents could actually react to it i was lost. now i keep it in the back pocket and play straight up in all matchups unless i scout something silly like a no wall off/two gate toss in close positions. | ||
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Saracen
United States5139 Posts
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archon256
United States363 Posts
On September 23 2010 13:21 GPhalanX wrote: Hi guys, New to TL but been constantly reading posts. I am a zerg player myself trying to make it up to diamond. I am currently in the gold league. Lately I have been trouble defeating terrans opening in 1/1/1. It is so versatile that I need to constantly sac an overlord to see what he is upto. What's your solid counter to this opening? Early 5RR reinforce with lings? I will post some replays as soon as I am off work. Cheers! My usual strategy in ZvT is to go for Muta/ling with 3 Queens ASAP, and then go from there depending on what the opponent chooses (Roach for mech, Infestor/Baneling for bio, etc.). Speedlings can protect you from small numbers of Hellions before your Muta pop until they get Blue Flame (Get Crawlers if you see him getting Hellions), Queens can stop quick Banshees and defend your Overlords from Vikings. Once you get Mutas, you can go on the offensive. You can force the Terran to sit in his base till he gets enough Thors and/or Marines to push out, force him to use up minerals on Turrets, snipe depots and tech labs, and of course, kill SCVs and MULEs. That's the beauty of this build, you can hit the Terran behind his wall and do significant damage to his econ, unlike if you were to go, say, Roach/Hydra. | ||
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