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On September 22 2010 19:04 DarKFoRcE wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2010 19:01 Mikkerthebhu wrote:
About zerg vs zerg I have been doing a little test with a friend of mine. We wanted to see which build would be best suited against a 6-pool rush.
We started off with 14 pool, which got absolutely thrashed, so did 13 pool, 12 pool was a bit closer and may be a bit more map dependant, but you could suffer serious drone damage before getting reinforcement. The only real secure build was 10 pool. We didn't try extractor trick 11 pool, which may be better.
7 pool could be fended off by a 12 pool with few casuelties.
This means that I have personally been going 6/7 pool in most of my zerg vs zerg games simply because people get too greedy, thinking they can just sit and macro. What I would advice to do is going for an extremely early scout. 7'th og 8'th drone, this way you can make sure you don't get buildorder pwned, or atleast get a macro advantange by droning longer than your opponent. this is pretty micro dependant, while you might be right, i wouldnt jump to conclusions so quickly.
I think you can hold off a 6 pool with a 14 pool quite ok, with proper micro.
It does depend on map size and spawn location though, e.g. if you spawn in a top position where your eggs will be far away from the mineral line, it is alot harder to defend because the spawning lings get surrounded without drone support.
It is important to not lose more then 1-2 drones until your lings popand queen pop, then you should win against 6 pool every single time.
To do so, keep running away with your drones, but stay in the mineral line.
With 15 drones (which you should have when he arrives and you did a 14 pool) you can easily kill 6 zerglings with minimal losses, if you stay in the mineral line, and dont let him attack your drones one by one.
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(I read the first 7 pages of this post, do not have more time; hopefully, this questions have not already been answered)
I am new to SC2 (6 ladder games played), Platinum. I am an epxerienced SCBW player.
My questions:
1) Saracen, which method do you use for larva injection?
2) Why is it popular to get +1 melee for lings instead of carapace?
3) How do you remember which creep tumors to use to expand creep?
4) Concerning my play: Using thorough scouting, I go as greedy on eco as possible, based on Idra's eco build: 15 pool, 17 natural, queen @ pool done, 18 gas.
I adapt to early aggression (reapers, zeals) with build adaptation if needed, queens, spine crawlers, lings.
I go ASAP ling speed, lair (vice versa if no threat from opponent), into a well saturated 4 gas muta.
I drop an evo after my first round of mutas pop at the latest (but usually after spire), and get +1 carapace.
During muta harass I get 3rd hatch in main (or nat), hydra den, 3rd base, hydra range so I can tech switch if necessary - but usually muta/ling make the day. If the games goes longer, I drop a 2nd evo, and if opponent is T and goes Thor or Viking heavy, I get +1 air carapace, otherwise +1 air weapon.
The motivation behind this approach is that gas is so scarce, I do not want to waste it on tech for low-tier units. On the other hand, I have so much excess minerals (using ~20 drones on minerals per base), I can make insane amounts of lings.
The resulting map control allows for easy expanding and fast reaction to drops and opponent's harass.
Where are the holes in my approach? Ty in advance.
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On September 23 2010 00:12 Viruuus wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2010 19:04 DarKFoRcE wrote:On September 22 2010 19:01 Mikkerthebhu wrote:
About zerg vs zerg I have been doing a little test with a friend of mine. We wanted to see which build would be best suited against a 6-pool rush.
We started off with 14 pool, which got absolutely thrashed, so did 13 pool, 12 pool was a bit closer and may be a bit more map dependant, but you could suffer serious drone damage before getting reinforcement. The only real secure build was 10 pool. We didn't try extractor trick 11 pool, which may be better.
7 pool could be fended off by a 12 pool with few casuelties.
This means that I have personally been going 6/7 pool in most of my zerg vs zerg games simply because people get too greedy, thinking they can just sit and macro. What I would advice to do is going for an extremely early scout. 7'th og 8'th drone, this way you can make sure you don't get buildorder pwned, or atleast get a macro advantange by droning longer than your opponent. this is pretty micro dependant, while you might be right, i wouldnt jump to conclusions so quickly. I think you can hold off a 6 pool with a 14 pool quite ok, with proper micro.
Unless you're really far apart, you need to have your pool down by 13 if you want to defend 6-7 pool.
On September 23 2010 00:37 Metaspace wrote:
(I read the first 7 pages of this post, do not have more time; hopefully, this questions have not already been answered)
I am new to SC2 (6 ladder games played), Platinum. I am an epxerienced SCBW player.
My questions:
1) Saracen, which method do you use for larva injection?
2) Why is it popular to get +1 melee for lings instead of carapace?
3) How do you remember which creep tumors to use to expand creep?
4) Concerning my play: Using thorough scouting, I go as greedy on eco as possible, based on Idra's eco build: 15 pool, 17 natural, queen @ pool done, 18 gas.
I adapt to early aggression (reapers, zeals) with build adaptation if needed, queens, spine crawlers, lings.
...
Where are the holes in my approach? Ty in advance.
1.) Clearly I'm not Saracen, but I did cross over 1400 today. There's no right way to do it. I put all my queens on 4, and use shift+v+backspace
2.) This is really dependent on the game. If your opponent is getting a fast +1 attack, you need carapace. Especially in ZvP. That said, +1 attack is pretty phenomenal. Look at it this way: Lings do a base damage of 5. Increasing that to 6 is a 20% DPS increase. Couple that with the fact that sooo many lings can be hitting a unit at any given time, and its pretty easy to see how quickly the damage can add up.
3.) I expand creep whenever I inject. I don't think there's any special way to remember which ones to expand, though. I just click on my minimap, at the edge of my creep spread.
4.) Sounds like you're playing the way Zerg should be played. Abuse your macro mechanic by getting your economy as big as you possibly can. Keep it up, you'll be rank 1 diamond in no time.
On September 23 2010 00:06 eXiled wrote:
I'm sure this is asked before in this thread. But lately almost all terrans I play go for 4-5 thors in their army, and I really can't seem to find a decent counter for them. So what do you build against thors? I tried some kind of mass lings plus infestors, but if the thors are clumped up there is not enough surface area for lings to deal sufficient damage.
Saracen's said a couple times through this thread that he feels well balanced Thor compositions (ie: Thor, marauder, hellion) are pretty impossible to deal with without ultras and broodlords. I like fighting thor with muta, but if you're going to do that, you have to engage early and often, so that you keep the thor numbers low. You can't expect to be successful if you just let him mass, and mass, and mass indefinitely.
On September 23 2010 00:05 number1gog wrote:
TL;DR - early overseer just for scouting purposes: worth it?
Yes! You're not just paying 100 gas for a one time look at the T's base. You're paying 100 gas for changelings and for contaminate, which you should try to use every time your overseer gets to 75 energy.
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MrBitter, thank you for your help (and congrats for the 1400!)
Concerning ground upgrades, I did not yet look into the numbers, my experience from SCBW is lings with better armor live longer, stand a better chance to reach ranged enemy units alive, that this usually offsets attack upgrades (i.e., should result in similar DPS, or better?), unless you have proper tank units.
Later, with the adrenalin upgrade at hive there are no more worries about damage output :-)
I agree on the necessity of keeping thor etc. numbers low, albeit with me spending all my gas on muta (except upgrades), this felt do able (which, lacking epxerience, is perhaps bullshit).
What about going hydra/muta vs. the thor/marauder/hellion?
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The best way of dealing with 5+ thors is to avoid them and do your damage elsewhere, catch reinforcements out of position etc.
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Hey, i'm a mid-platinum European Zerg player. I have a lot of trouble against protoss, i must have around a 10% win ratio against protoss, always feel like i'm behind most of the time. The build i generally go for 5 Roach push and mix it up with zerglings and roaches from then on. I'll move onto mutas when i feel the first attacks are completely failing...but most of the time....if those attacks are failing then the game is pretty much lost. The most common army comps i come up against are zealots+sentry+stalker+collossus, and collossus just roast all of my ground armys and if i've went for mutas, i generally don't have enough to get passed the stalker ball.
The games that i've won have generally bean when my 5 roaches take out their zealots, they go for stalkers...my next wave is zerglings which takes out the stalkers....they go back to zealots and i just keep the pressure up till i have 2 expansions and just have complete control. Add some photon cannons in there or better micro from the toss and this wont work.
Is this the right way to go and to just refine this method or is there a better way? I feel like i just CANT let him get to collo or it's lost!
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On September 23 2010 01:36 Stunt wrote:
Hey, i'm a mid-platinum European Zerg player. I have a lot of trouble against protoss, i must have around a 10% win ratio against protoss, always feel like i'm behind most of the time. The build i generally go for 5 Roach push and mix it up with zerglings and roaches from then on. I'll move onto mutas when i feel the first attacks are completely failing...but most of the time....if those attacks are failing then the game is pretty much lost. The most common army comps i come up against are zealots+sentry+stalker+collossus, and collossus just roast all of my ground armys and if i've went for mutas, i generally don't have enough to get passed the stalker ball.
The games that i've won have generally bean when my 5 roaches take out their zealots, they go for stalkers...my next wave is zerglings which takes out the stalkers....they go back to zealots and i just keep the pressure up till i have 2 expansions and just have complete control. Add some photon cannons in there or better micro from the toss and this wont work.
Is this the right way to go and to just refine this method or is there a better way? I feel like i just CANT let him get to collo or it's lost!
You're approaching this matchup in completely the wrong way.
1st: Fist's 5RR is a great build. Fun, fast way to pick up some easy wins. Its fairly safe, and it transitions ok through the mid-game. Like any build centered around early aggression, though, if 5RR doesn't do damage, the Zerg player is behind.
2nd: If you go Roach, you're forcing the Protoss player to get Stalkers, and to stay on one base. Transitioning from Roach to Muta against a one base Protoss is counter-intuitive. The strength of muta in ZvP is its ability to punish a toss for being spread out. A one base toss is not spread out at all. Additionally, by forcing him to start massing stalkers before you even think of dropping your spire, your setting your mutas up to be disadvantaged as soon as they fly into his base.
My advice to you, would be to stop going 5RR. You've used the build a lot, you know how to do it. You made your way to wherever you are on the ladder with it. Great. Put it back in your bag for a rainy day. Start practicing more macro oriented builds that punish a one basing Protoss.
I'm a big advocate of low-tech, ling-heavy macro builds like this one:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=150899
They give you the fighting strength you need to fend off early aggression, and transition phenomenally into the mid and late games.
On September 23 2010 01:10 Metaspace wrote:
MrBitter, thank you for your help (and congrats for the 1400!)
Concerning ground upgrades, I did not yet look into the numbers, my experience from SCBW is lings with better armor live longer, stand a better chance to reach ranged enemy units alive, that this usually offsets attack upgrades (i.e., should result in similar DPS, or better?), unless you have proper tank units.
Later, with the adrenalin upgrade at hive there are no more worries about damage output :-)
I agree on the necessity of keeping thor etc. numbers low, albeit with me spending all my gas on muta (except upgrades), this felt do able (which, lacking epxerience, is perhaps bullshit).
What about going hydra/muta vs. the thor/marauder/hellion?
I'm not a math guy. I just copy the pros. Dimaga gets +1 attack a lot. It worked for him, so I tried it. Turns out it worked for me too. =)
The rule that I live by: Get attack unless you know he's going for early + attack also. In which case, get carapace to keep your units on equal footing.
Hydra/Muta sounds kinda' bad vs Thor/Marauder/Hellion.
Hydras are light, so Hellions will cook them very quickly, while marauders and thors just tank damage. Additionally, a T going Thor has factories with tech labs. That means easy access to siege tanks.
Muta vs Thor is winnable if you have the right numbers, and the right unit spread. (magic box)
Instead of spending gas on hydras, get more muta, and spend excess minerals on lings.
Just my 2cents.
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One of the big reasons i continued to go use the 5RR build was because it was a good build to hold off any early zealot pushes also. so i had a good mix of feeling safe and also having the ability to push if nothing had happened. I guess now with the zealot change it's the perfect time to change, i'll check that out cheers!
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Stunt: In addition to what MrBitter said (which is great advice), also remember that you need to be teching appropriately in response to your protoss opponent. Hydras and zerglings are great against stalkers, but get shredded by colossus. In response, you should have corrupters by the time they push out with colossi. Roach/Hydra/Corruptor is a great composition against protoss, and allows for easy transition into broodlords if the game goes on long enough.
5RR is a great way to gain early momentum, but don't let yourself get caught in a rigid mindset. You need to take advantage of your extra breathing space to macro, tech, and be better prepared than your protoss opponent. Like MrBitter said, try working on more macro-oriented builds, and you should be fine.
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This thread's been really helpful to me. thanks everyone!
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On September 23 2010 01:45 MrBitter wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2010 01:36 Stunt wrote:
Hey, i'm a mid-platinum European Zerg player. I have a lot of trouble against protoss, i must have around a 10% win ratio against protoss, always feel like i'm behind most of the time. The build i generally go for 5 Roach push and mix it up with zerglings and roaches from then on. I'll move onto mutas when i feel the first attacks are completely failing...but most of the time....if those attacks are failing then the game is pretty much lost. The most common army comps i come up against are zealots+sentry+stalker+collossus, and collossus just roast all of my ground armys and if i've went for mutas, i generally don't have enough to get passed the stalker ball.
The games that i've won have generally bean when my 5 roaches take out their zealots, they go for stalkers...my next wave is zerglings which takes out the stalkers....they go back to zealots and i just keep the pressure up till i have 2 expansions and just have complete control. Add some photon cannons in there or better micro from the toss and this wont work.
Is this the right way to go and to just refine this method or is there a better way? I feel like i just CANT let him get to collo or it's lost! You're approaching this matchup in completely the wrong way. 1st: Fist's 5RR is a great build. Fun, fast way to pick up some easy wins. Its fairly safe, and it transitions ok through the mid-game. Like any build centered around early aggression, though, if 5RR doesn't do damage, the Zerg player is behind. 2nd: If you go Roach, you're forcing the Protoss player to get Stalkers, and to stay on one base. Transitioning from Roach to Muta against a one base Protoss is counter-intuitive. The strength of muta in ZvP is its ability to punish a toss for being spread out. A one base toss is not spread out at all. Additionally, by forcing him to start massing stalkers before you even think of dropping your spire, your setting your mutas up to be disadvantaged as soon as they fly into his base. My advice to you, would be to stop going 5RR. You've used the build a lot, you know how to do it. You made your way to wherever you are on the ladder with it. Great. Put it back in your bag for a rainy day. Start practicing more macro oriented builds that punish a one basing Protoss. I'm a big advocate of low-tech, ling-heavy macro builds like this one: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=150899They give you the fighting strength you need to fend off early aggression, and transition phenomenally into the mid and late games. Show nested quote +On September 23 2010 01:10 Metaspace wrote:
MrBitter, thank you for your help (and congrats for the 1400!)
Concerning ground upgrades, I did not yet look into the numbers, my experience from SCBW is lings with better armor live longer, stand a better chance to reach ranged enemy units alive, that this usually offsets attack upgrades (i.e., should result in similar DPS, or better?), unless you have proper tank units.
Later, with the adrenalin upgrade at hive there are no more worries about damage output :-)
I agree on the necessity of keeping thor etc. numbers low, albeit with me spending all my gas on muta (except upgrades), this felt do able (which, lacking epxerience, is perhaps bullshit).
What about going hydra/muta vs. the thor/marauder/hellion? I'm not a math guy. I just copy the pros. Dimaga gets +1 attack a lot. It worked for him, so I tried it. Turns out it worked for me too. =) The rule that I live by: Get attack unless you know he's going for early + attack also. In which case, get carapace to keep your units on equal footing. Hydra/Muta sounds kinda' bad vs Thor/Marauder/Hellion. Hydras are light, so Hellions will cook them very quickly, while marauders and thors just tank damage. Additionally, a T going Thor has factories with tech labs. That means easy access to siege tanks. Muta vs Thor is winnable if you have the right numbers, and the right unit spread. (magic box) Instead of spending gas on hydras, get more muta, and spend excess minerals on lings. Just my 2cents.
Hello MrBitter, I Really like your post on using the dimaga syle ZvP build. I especially like the idea of slings vs 4gate pushes for the reasons stated previously. My question is this. In the quote you mention that going Muta vs a Protoss that is turtling into 1 base, is counter productive because mutas are used to punish spread out Protoss. So for example Protoss pushes out with his intial 4gate push, we stuff it with slings and a few crawlers at the nat. Protoss then decides to into 1 base and wait for collosus or storm. How do you Proceed? Im confused as to what to tech to when i know the toss is on 1 base and is saving up for a big push with collosus or HT. I could be wrong but i dont think Ultras could be out in time?
And then my last question is the reverse. Say protoss decides to exapnd after intial 4gate push. Would we then we looking to go muta?
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On September 23 2010 00:51 MrBitter wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2010 00:05 number1gog wrote:
TL;DR - early overseer just for scouting purposes: worth it? Yes! You're not just paying 100 gas for a one time look at the T's base. You're paying 100 gas for changelings and for contaminate, which you should try to use every time your overseer gets to 75 energy.
Ah I never even thought of those.
When targeting structures for contaminate, I'm assuming the best way to go would be to hit the factory or starport? Assuming that delaying a marine not being as useful as delaying a tank?
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On September 23 2010 01:36 Stunt wrote: The build i generally go for 5 Roach push
There is your problem. Its not a very good build and pretty much an allin. Try to play more solid openings. There are plenty of examples in this thread.
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On September 23 2010 05:29 DarKFoRcE wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2010 01:36 Stunt wrote: The build i generally go for 5 Roach push There is your problem. Its not a very good build and pretty much an allin. Try to play more solid openings. There are plenty of examples in this thread.
In fact you can go for a 14 pool 14 gas and scout, then decide to either go 20 expand or 5 RR. The decision is made late enough that you can get good scouting. If you go for the expand I suggest an evo and upgrade to go with it.
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On September 23 2010 05:08 Eazypeezy wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2010 01:45 MrBitter wrote:On September 23 2010 01:36 Stunt wrote:
Hey, i'm a mid-platinum European Zerg player. I have a lot of trouble against protoss, i must have around a 10% win ratio against protoss, always feel like i'm behind most of the time. The build i generally go for 5 Roach push and mix it up with zerglings and roaches from then on. I'll move onto mutas when i feel the first attacks are completely failing...but most of the time....if those attacks are failing then the game is pretty much lost. The most common army comps i come up against are zealots+sentry+stalker+collossus, and collossus just roast all of my ground armys and if i've went for mutas, i generally don't have enough to get passed the stalker ball.
The games that i've won have generally bean when my 5 roaches take out their zealots, they go for stalkers...my next wave is zerglings which takes out the stalkers....they go back to zealots and i just keep the pressure up till i have 2 expansions and just have complete control. Add some photon cannons in there or better micro from the toss and this wont work.
Is this the right way to go and to just refine this method or is there a better way? I feel like i just CANT let him get to collo or it's lost! You're approaching this matchup in completely the wrong way. 1st: Fist's 5RR is a great build. Fun, fast way to pick up some easy wins. Its fairly safe, and it transitions ok through the mid-game. Like any build centered around early aggression, though, if 5RR doesn't do damage, the Zerg player is behind. 2nd: If you go Roach, you're forcing the Protoss player to get Stalkers, and to stay on one base. Transitioning from Roach to Muta against a one base Protoss is counter-intuitive. The strength of muta in ZvP is its ability to punish a toss for being spread out. A one base toss is not spread out at all. Additionally, by forcing him to start massing stalkers before you even think of dropping your spire, your setting your mutas up to be disadvantaged as soon as they fly into his base. My advice to you, would be to stop going 5RR. You've used the build a lot, you know how to do it. You made your way to wherever you are on the ladder with it. Great. Put it back in your bag for a rainy day. Start practicing more macro oriented builds that punish a one basing Protoss. I'm a big advocate of low-tech, ling-heavy macro builds like this one: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=150899They give you the fighting strength you need to fend off early aggression, and transition phenomenally into the mid and late games. On September 23 2010 01:10 Metaspace wrote:
MrBitter, thank you for your help (and congrats for the 1400!)
Concerning ground upgrades, I did not yet look into the numbers, my experience from SCBW is lings with better armor live longer, stand a better chance to reach ranged enemy units alive, that this usually offsets attack upgrades (i.e., should result in similar DPS, or better?), unless you have proper tank units.
Later, with the adrenalin upgrade at hive there are no more worries about damage output :-)
I agree on the necessity of keeping thor etc. numbers low, albeit with me spending all my gas on muta (except upgrades), this felt do able (which, lacking epxerience, is perhaps bullshit).
What about going hydra/muta vs. the thor/marauder/hellion? I'm not a math guy. I just copy the pros. Dimaga gets +1 attack a lot. It worked for him, so I tried it. Turns out it worked for me too. =) The rule that I live by: Get attack unless you know he's going for early + attack also. In which case, get carapace to keep your units on equal footing. Hydra/Muta sounds kinda' bad vs Thor/Marauder/Hellion. Hydras are light, so Hellions will cook them very quickly, while marauders and thors just tank damage. Additionally, a T going Thor has factories with tech labs. That means easy access to siege tanks. Muta vs Thor is winnable if you have the right numbers, and the right unit spread. (magic box) Instead of spending gas on hydras, get more muta, and spend excess minerals on lings. Just my 2cents. Hello MrBitter, I Really like your post on using the dimaga syle ZvP build. I especially like the idea of slings vs 4gate pushes for the reasons stated previously. My question is this. In the quote you mention that going Muta vs a Protoss that is turtling into 1 base, is counter productive because mutas are used to punish spread out Protoss. So for example Protoss pushes out with his intial 4gate push, we stuff it with slings and a few crawlers at the nat. Protoss then decides to into 1 base and wait for collosus or storm. How do you Proceed? Im confused as to what to tech to when i know the toss is on 1 base and is saving up for a big push with collosus or HT. I could be wrong but i dont think Ultras could be out in time? And then my last question is the reverse. Say protoss decides to exapnd after intial 4gate push. Would we then we looking to go muta?
If your following the Dimaga style, you're more or less skipping lair tech, and going straight to hive. The timing works out like this:
- Toss pushes with 4 gate
- Push gets stuffed with slings as Lair is finishing
- Toss plants robo, then robo bay
- At roughly the same times, you plant Infestation Pit and start Hive
- You'll drop your ultra den around the time that he has 1-2 colossi
- And ultras should pop just in time to counter the colossus push
That said, you can use the same opening, and instead of rushing to Hive, drop a spire and play the muta game.
Mutas can be very effective against colossus, assuming you can dodge the stalkers, and if toss decided to expand, can indeed punish his now much more spread out army.
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On September 23 2010 05:35 MrBitter wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2010 05:08 Eazypeezy wrote:On September 23 2010 01:45 MrBitter wrote:On September 23 2010 01:36 Stunt wrote:
Hey, i'm a mid-platinum European Zerg player. I have a lot of trouble against protoss, i must have around a 10% win ratio against protoss, always feel like i'm behind most of the time. The build i generally go for 5 Roach push and mix it up with zerglings and roaches from then on. I'll move onto mutas when i feel the first attacks are completely failing...but most of the time....if those attacks are failing then the game is pretty much lost. The most common army comps i come up against are zealots+sentry+stalker+collossus, and collossus just roast all of my ground armys and if i've went for mutas, i generally don't have enough to get passed the stalker ball.
The games that i've won have generally bean when my 5 roaches take out their zealots, they go for stalkers...my next wave is zerglings which takes out the stalkers....they go back to zealots and i just keep the pressure up till i have 2 expansions and just have complete control. Add some photon cannons in there or better micro from the toss and this wont work.
Is this the right way to go and to just refine this method or is there a better way? I feel like i just CANT let him get to collo or it's lost! You're approaching this matchup in completely the wrong way. 1st: Fist's 5RR is a great build. Fun, fast way to pick up some easy wins. Its fairly safe, and it transitions ok through the mid-game. Like any build centered around early aggression, though, if 5RR doesn't do damage, the Zerg player is behind. 2nd: If you go Roach, you're forcing the Protoss player to get Stalkers, and to stay on one base. Transitioning from Roach to Muta against a one base Protoss is counter-intuitive. The strength of muta in ZvP is its ability to punish a toss for being spread out. A one base toss is not spread out at all. Additionally, by forcing him to start massing stalkers before you even think of dropping your spire, your setting your mutas up to be disadvantaged as soon as they fly into his base. My advice to you, would be to stop going 5RR. You've used the build a lot, you know how to do it. You made your way to wherever you are on the ladder with it. Great. Put it back in your bag for a rainy day. Start practicing more macro oriented builds that punish a one basing Protoss. I'm a big advocate of low-tech, ling-heavy macro builds like this one: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=150899They give you the fighting strength you need to fend off early aggression, and transition phenomenally into the mid and late games. On September 23 2010 01:10 Metaspace wrote:
MrBitter, thank you for your help (and congrats for the 1400!)
Concerning ground upgrades, I did not yet look into the numbers, my experience from SCBW is lings with better armor live longer, stand a better chance to reach ranged enemy units alive, that this usually offsets attack upgrades (i.e., should result in similar DPS, or better?), unless you have proper tank units.
Later, with the adrenalin upgrade at hive there are no more worries about damage output :-)
I agree on the necessity of keeping thor etc. numbers low, albeit with me spending all my gas on muta (except upgrades), this felt do able (which, lacking epxerience, is perhaps bullshit).
What about going hydra/muta vs. the thor/marauder/hellion? I'm not a math guy. I just copy the pros. Dimaga gets +1 attack a lot. It worked for him, so I tried it. Turns out it worked for me too. =) The rule that I live by: Get attack unless you know he's going for early + attack also. In which case, get carapace to keep your units on equal footing. Hydra/Muta sounds kinda' bad vs Thor/Marauder/Hellion. Hydras are light, so Hellions will cook them very quickly, while marauders and thors just tank damage. Additionally, a T going Thor has factories with tech labs. That means easy access to siege tanks. Muta vs Thor is winnable if you have the right numbers, and the right unit spread. (magic box) Instead of spending gas on hydras, get more muta, and spend excess minerals on lings. Just my 2cents. Hello MrBitter, I Really like your post on using the dimaga syle ZvP build. I especially like the idea of slings vs 4gate pushes for the reasons stated previously. My question is this. In the quote you mention that going Muta vs a Protoss that is turtling into 1 base, is counter productive because mutas are used to punish spread out Protoss. So for example Protoss pushes out with his intial 4gate push, we stuff it with slings and a few crawlers at the nat. Protoss then decides to into 1 base and wait for collosus or storm. How do you Proceed? Im confused as to what to tech to when i know the toss is on 1 base and is saving up for a big push with collosus or HT. I could be wrong but i dont think Ultras could be out in time? And then my last question is the reverse. Say protoss decides to exapnd after intial 4gate push. Would we then we looking to go muta? If your following the Dimaga style, you're more or less skipping lair tech, and going straight to hive. The timing works out like this: - Toss pushes with 4 gate - Push gets stuffed with slings as Lair is finishing - Toss plants robo, then robo bay - At roughly the same times, you plant Infestation Pit and start Hive - You'll drop your ultra den around the time that he has 1-2 colossi - And ultras should pop just in time to counter the colossus push That said, you can use the same opening, and instead of rushing to Hive, drop a spire and play the muta game. Mutas can be very effective against colossus, assuming you can dodge the stalkers, and if toss decided to expand, can indeed punish his now much more spread out army.
It's important to note that the Dimaga style is mostly the early evo and upgraded lings to destroy a 4 gate. The fast hive afterwards is an option (and a good one). Another one I like is a mass expand to roaches (and eventual hive). Speedlings give amazing map control and roaches do wonderful damage to colossi.
Another key point is that roaches do poorly against stalkers only when the stalkers kite them, otherwise it's pretty even and in this case the colossi are slow and hold the stalkers back. It also takes good micro for a toss to focus the colossi on the lings because every time a ling dies (so every shot) the colossus will try to attack back at the roaches attacking it. So the toss player is most likely going to be unable to kite roaches, control zealots back, avoid speedlings on his stalkers and keep colossus firing at lings all at the same time.
When doing this it is usually good to make a spire and maybe some mutas because once your ultras pop (or even just with roaches and lings) the Protoss is likely to go for a ton of immortals and zealots (to avoid lings). The immortal/zealot/colossus is obviously extremely vulnerable to a quick muta switch.
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Saracen--could you (or one of the other high level zergs in this thread) briefly explain the reason why top zerg players do not use minimap larvae spawning? I ask because I do use it, and I'm wondering if there is something about it which is going to bite me later on at higher levels of play. (I'm high platinum right now)
Thanks!
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Can anyone help me improve from this replay?
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-151080.jpg)
Drops fucked me over.
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On September 23 2010 06:03 Morik wrote:
Saracen--could you (or one of the other high level zergs in this thread) briefly explain the reason why top zerg players do not use minimap larvae spawning? I ask because I do use it, and I'm wondering if there is something about it which is going to bite me later on at higher levels of play. (I'm high platinum right now)
Thanks!
Honestly just use what suits you better, im assuming the "top zerg" you are refering use the 6-7-8-9 hotkey method for each queen. I use this same methot pretty much because its also a fast way to look at your different bases , 6 main, 7 nat, 8 third, etc... Also when im defending against some kind of void ray rush or annoying drops i put 2 queens on each hatcher and bind them both to that number so if for example the void ray is attacking my nat i just press 7 and make my queens attack it, then if he tries to fly away over my main base i already have the my other queens ready just 6a and its done.
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OMG thank you so much for this thread. I'm 900ish diamond and fell into a trap of getting too many easy wins in ZvP with 5RR. I've found myself lost in the matchup now for it.
I'm seeing a general consensus on mass +1 speedlings as the standard vs 4 gate but am wondering if a transition to mutas after defending would be a proper play? Seeing as how the opponent will almost certainly go to collosus and have a much less stalker heavy army.
Also, have we now moved completely away from hydras in ZvP? No one has mentioned using them in the match up in the thread (unless I've missed it).
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EPT
