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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. |
On September 22 2010 05:53 BartooToo wrote:
@Mastadon
Could you list them please ? That would be really awesome.
There aren't so much exact build orders as type of openings and timings.
1) If you get gas pool as a 13-12 or 14-13 or 15-14 etc, you can get speed immediately when pool pops.
2) You need an expand with Zerg at some point. The earlier the better. Typically expands are delayed to get speed, get some roaches (see 5 RR), or get an upgrade (+1 armor or melee).
3) 9 OL is better than extractor tricks unless you are going for some weird 12 pool with double trick.
4) The later the pool, the better the econ, the best pool is the one that is the latest while still not seeing you dead.
5) Early expand (before pool) is good but vulnerable, see late pools.
6) You are Zerg so react, you don't have a BO past 30, just things to scout for and possible reactions. This is why the BO question is odd, this is also why it is harder to learn Zerg because you need to learn Protoss BOs, Terran BOs and the Zerg options with the reactions to each.
7) Basic BOs off the top of my head are:
- 14 pool 16 ish hatch (usually into a warren, used against P most often when you are sure there is no 2 gate rush, gas is taken at roughly 20).
- 14 hatch 14 pool (risky but can work, big maps only, if you do this on Steppes you lose).
- 14 gas 13 pool (or 13/12 or 15/14) are referred to as speedling openers, typically expand around 20-21, can also turn into a baneling bust (very all in).
- 5 RR (look it up, starts as a 14 pool 14 gas)
- 14 pool 14 gas (my current general opening, mildly delayed speed, can turn into 5 RR or get a 20 expand, speed absolutely right away is usually overkill vT and vP).
8) I almost never send a drone scout, add 1 to every count in my BO list if you want a scout early.
9) Queen when pool pops, no ifs ands or buts.
10) If you are not going for a fast lair, get a second queen on the first hatchery. If you have a 20 expand going up, move the first queen there just after a spawn larvae (as the second queen is being made).
11) Go watch some pro games (especially Dimaga and Check, Idra if you like a slower less aggressive style). Go watch the relevant D9Ds, especially the ZvT ones (recent) and the Artosis ones (around 140), while you are at it watch all the XvZ ones too because you need to know what they are thinking (so essentially just skip PvT TvT and PvP :p).
12) Practice. Practice more. If you have a specific question, watch your replay and if you can't figure it out, pop up here with the question.
I hope that list helps.
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On September 22 2010 06:08 MrBitter wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2010 05:50 BartooToo wrote:
@ZapRoffo, yeah, I already know a few.
I know and am comfortable with:
6pool
Huskystarcraft's roach opener
10pool
13pool >.< For the sake of improvement, you should be going 14 gas, 14 pool, 21 expand in every game and matchup, excluding ZvZ. In the mirror, 14 gas, 14 pool, sling/bling into expand
This is not bad advice to begin with.
Add on the 5RR as it is a nice tool vP and start trying 14 pool 14 gas as well to see what differences it makes on expand timings. Also, when watching your replays, think about what would have changed if speed were delayed. Really the 2 big variables of Zerg openings are when you can expand (and use the expand properly) and when your zerglings become fast (and consequently useful).
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@Sixes
Thanks a whole lot for that list, I really appreciate it!
I'm gonna take a thorough look at it and practice like a mad man.
More input is still welcome though 
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I am sorry if this problem has already been addressed, and if it is, could you please copy paste the trick for me to see, or just tell me where I can find the answer.
I have a problem with early enemy scouts that denies my first hatchery from being placed. Having tried this a couple of times I just tend to do the safe 14 gas 14 pool build and get a zergling out to fend the scout off. Is there any cute tricks to kill or atleast get rid of this scout or stop it from delaying the expo?
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On September 22 2010 06:25 Mikkerthebhu wrote:
I am sorry if this problem has already been addressed, and if it is, could you please copy paste the trick for me to see, or just tell me where I can find the answer.
I have a problem with early enemy scouts that denies my first hatchery from being placed. Having tried this a couple of times I just tend to do the safe 14 gas 14 pool build and get a zergling out to fend the scout off. Is there any cute tricks to kill or atleast get rid of this scout or stop it from delaying the expo?
If you are against a good opponent ... not really.
The closest I have come (when I know I want a 16 hatch rather than 20) is to place an overlord (the 9 OL) at the entrance of the natural. Enemy scouts will usually come up and check before denying expands, that is where you micro your drone around the opposite side so he doesn't see it. It really comes down to micro, otherwise just play it safe and get the 2 lings to clear it (the advantage of this is also that he is never sure there is an expand or a 5 RR coming).
The OL at the natural is good regardless to see pylon/bunker/proxy shenanigans.
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On September 21 2010 12:14 Saracen wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2010 11:31 Zvendetta wrote:
I recently saw a replay where a terran player did a thor hellion push with scvs repairing against a very high level zerg. There were even siege tanks in the mix (3). Amidst the army composition, i am wary of calling "imbalanced," but it seemed that even though there were tons of roaches, the zerg player couldn't out dps the repair. A healthy mix of thors, hellions, and tanks, just exactly what can overcome this rolling death machine? Unfortunately, there is no pre-hive army that is either cost-effective or supply-effective against this composition. If he has too little thors, mass upgraded mutas can beat this army, as well as good harass (i.e. if he tries to move out, you start killing all his depots/factories with your 40+ mutas). However, if he is thor-heavy, there's not much you can do. Tanks are amazing at shutting down infestor play. Here is one replay where I manage to beat such a composition with a pure pre-hive composition: http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/Saracen/Replays/ZvT_infinity_091110.sc2replayUnfortunately, I have lost against this strategy 10x more than I have beaten it. To be honest, I don't really think the Terran even needs tanks, just thor/hellion. If the rush distance is long enough, it might be possible to nydus in his base RIGHT when he tries to move out to kill reinforcements/depots/factories, but this is extremely map-dependent and if you don't nydus soon enough, it won't work. You can also try (fast) teching to hive. I personally don't like brood lords because vikings destroy them so badly, but you can't deny that they're very good against thors. As for ultralisks, their 70 second build time makes them less than optimal and they die extremely quickly to mass thors, but I'm thinking maybe super fast ultralisks with some ling/roach/baneling support might work against a 200/200 mech attack, though it would get destroyed by a nice timing attack that hits in the ~2 minute time it takes to get the ultralisks out after hive is done. Maybe add in a few brood lords as well?
just noob speculation, but after the patch, would mass sling/bling actually be more effective against this mix with the change in tank damage? or will the hellions still nullify this?
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On September 22 2010 05:12 Saracen wrote:This is also where you can answer questions
Yes and ofcourse , /hug
Don´t stray the path!
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Do you think Zerg are more balanced at higher skill levels?
At lower skill level the inability to be effectively aggressive against walled off/cannoned up T and Ps combined with the difficulty of scouting makes Zerg pretty frustrating at times. Nothing quite like a P hiding behind 30 cannons while you take the whole map then he comes out with 15 void rays and just kills everything.
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On September 22 2010 06:45 Grizley wrote:
Do you think Zerg are more balanced at higher skill levels?
At lower skill level the inability to be effectively aggressive against walled off/cannoned up T and Ps combined with the difficulty of scouting makes Zerg pretty frustrating at times. Nothing quite like a P hiding behind 30 cannons while you take the whole map then he comes out with 15 void rays and just kills everything.
Balance at high skill level is a tricky topic that's debated to death.
But for what you are talking about, look for the angles where he as the least cannons, then send like 4 or 5 speed overlords in (you should have the money if you really are taking the whole map, or if you find somewhere where he has no cannons, send 1-2) and now you have the info you need. He can't kill all of them fast enough before you get the information. Then defend with mass hydras if it's VRs or corruptors if it's Carriers, while not letting him expand. Then kill him when he runs out of resources.
Oh yeah, and the answer to low skill balance is play better! There is no use worrying about balance one bit until you are really pretty much near the top. (Or my excuse for the occasional balance remarks: I worry about it when it makes the matches I like to spectate not as good.)
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My problem with hydra vs VR is by the time your slow hydra can attack the VR are charged and just pop hydra. Even with the map pretty well creeped up.
It seems the only way I win as Zerg is keeping them on one base and waiting until they run out of mins/gas.
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On September 22 2010 01:47 ToxNub wrote:
5. Burrow. Is there a purpose for burrow? I find burrowed roaches far too gimicky. If he scans when I am near his force I insta-lose the game. I also don't feel like I can spare the units for holding off a main push. If he takes a path 2 ft to the right of my baneling(s) or walks over it with a thor or something, I've really just wasted my money and reduced my baneling count at home. And units that can't move, like lings, hydras? Is burrow worth even using? When?
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Burrow 2 banelings (or 4) in his expansion mineral line, and detonate his scvs.
In fact, you don't even technically need to do that part. Once he puts turrets up there his nearby units will automatically shoot the banelings, detonating the scvs.
But like I'm in the opposite boat. I win nearly every game vs terran; it seems like almost any <1k or so terran is easily beatable with banelings.
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I could be wrong here, but I notice a big difference between Korean Zerg and NA zerg. It seems when I whatch PhoeNixWeRRa he usually always goes
15hatch
14pool
17ovie + 1st gas
as soon as pool pops 2sets of lings + queen
2nd queen as Nat pops
and almost always a Roach warren at about 20-21 skipping ling speed till later.
He does exact same vs Terran and Toss except he dosent get the Roach Warren right away vs toss. I notice sometimes he will go 15gas 14 pool But I cant figure out what makes him choose between the 2 builds.
Anyway I just wanted to get a high level players opinion on that kind of opening build/Maybe you could tell me why he sometimes goes 15gas 14pool instead. It must be decent because hes 11th in NA server. Thanks alot
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On September 22 2010 07:10 Grizley wrote:
My problem with hydra vs VR is by the time your slow hydra can attack the VR are charged and just pop hydra. Even with the map pretty well creeped up.
It seems the only way I win as Zerg is keeping them on one base and waiting until they run out of mins/gas.
If you have the economy advantage you should have against a 1 base cannoned player, it doesn't matter if his VRs charge, you should have enough hydras (don't forget upgrades) to kill them anyway. A hydra or group of hydras for you is replaceable. For him, a VR loss is huge, since he's gonna run out of money.
And yeah, if someone tries to 1 base you, that's how you win. Attacking a 1 base player is 99% of the time a bad idea as zerg if he still has minerals in it unless you are 200/200 with about 100 larva saved up. (purposeful rush builds excluded)
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On September 22 2010 07:10 Grizley wrote:
My problem with hydra vs VR is by the time your slow hydra can attack the VR are charged and just pop hydra. Even with the map pretty well creeped up.
It seems the only way I win as Zerg is keeping them on one base and waiting until they run out of mins/gas.
Getting creep between your bases will help those hydras get there faster. Queens can help take VRs down pretty good too. Also, spread overlords around your base to see the VRs coming and get units into position before they can do much damage.
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On September 22 2010 07:14 Eazypeezy wrote:
I could be wrong here, but I notice a big difference between Korean Zerg and NA zerg. It seems when I whatch PhoeNixWeRRa he usually always goes
15hatch
14pool
17ovie + 1st gas
as soon as pool pops 2sets of lings + queen
2nd queen as Nat pops
and almost always a Roach warren at about 20-21 skipping ling speed till later.
He does exact same vs Terran and Toss except he dosent get the Roach Warren right away vs toss. I notice sometimes he will go 15gas 14 pool But I cant figure out what makes him choose between the 2 builds.
Anyway I just wanted to get a high level players opinion on that kind of opening build/Maybe you could tell me why he sometimes goes 15gas 14pool instead. It must be decent because hes 11th in NA server. Thanks alot
Be sure not to look at those games with tunnel vision.
Notice than in the vast majority of the games where PhoeNixWeRRa (or any Korea, for that matter) goes hatch first, his opponent also fast expands.
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Ok so I already played vs Toss, (that is better than my btw), and i tryed my best timing when to make drones, and when to make army and when not I even knew when he would attack... and i lost.
Can you tell me my mortal mistakes? xD, cmon go hard on me! Its a short replay. And I thanks each minute of yours wasted on teaching me something ><
Download is here: http://rapidshare.com/files/420446819/ZvPLose.rar
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On September 22 2010 07:21 MrBitter wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2010 07:14 Eazypeezy wrote:
I could be wrong here, but I notice a big difference between Korean Zerg and NA zerg. It seems when I whatch PhoeNixWeRRa he usually always goes
15hatch
14pool
17ovie + 1st gas
as soon as pool pops 2sets of lings + queen
2nd queen as Nat pops
and almost always a Roach warren at about 20-21 skipping ling speed till later.
He does exact same vs Terran and Toss except he dosent get the Roach Warren right away vs toss. I notice sometimes he will go 15gas 14 pool But I cant figure out what makes him choose between the 2 builds.
Anyway I just wanted to get a high level players opinion on that kind of opening build/Maybe you could tell me why he sometimes goes 15gas 14pool instead. It must be decent because hes 11th in NA server. Thanks alot Be sure not to look at those games with tunnel vision. Notice than in the vast majority of the games where PhoeNixWeRRa (or any Korea, for that matter) goes hatch first, his opponent also fast expands.
I disagree, In many games He takes a hatch first withought seeing an expansion. In some cases ive seen him take the 15 hatch on blistering sands withought scouting.
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I know its short, but a build order with FE that can actually hold 4 gate, and one that can hold a 2 gate ?
I have so much problems with protoss that goes these (99.99%) 
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On September 22 2010 07:36 Eazypeezy wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2010 07:21 MrBitter wrote:On September 22 2010 07:14 Eazypeezy wrote:
I could be wrong here, but I notice a big difference between Korean Zerg and NA zerg. It seems when I whatch PhoeNixWeRRa he usually always goes
15hatch
14pool
17ovie + 1st gas
as soon as pool pops 2sets of lings + queen
2nd queen as Nat pops
and almost always a Roach warren at about 20-21 skipping ling speed till later.
He does exact same vs Terran and Toss except he dosent get the Roach Warren right away vs toss. I notice sometimes he will go 15gas 14 pool But I cant figure out what makes him choose between the 2 builds.
Anyway I just wanted to get a high level players opinion on that kind of opening build/Maybe you could tell me why he sometimes goes 15gas 14pool instead. It must be decent because hes 11th in NA server. Thanks alot Be sure not to look at those games with tunnel vision. Notice than in the vast majority of the games where PhoeNixWeRRa (or any Korea, for that matter) goes hatch first, his opponent also fast expands. I disagree, In many games He takes a hatch first withought seeing an expansion. In some cases ive seen him take the 15 hatch on blistering sands withought scouting.
i havent seen any of his reps, but it's likely that he tries to capitalize on general lack of proper early game aggression on the US servers. And if he does this on Korean servers as well that would account for his stats there being that much worse.
I definitely advise against those builds as it is very hard to defend against most semi-aggressive openings and outright loses to things like 2 gate.
Theres actually very little benefit in that over pool-hatch-roach considering all the drawbacks.
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On September 22 2010 07:14 Eazypeezy wrote:
I could be wrong here, but I notice a big difference between Korean Zerg and NA zerg. It seems when I whatch PhoeNixWeRRa he usually always goes
15hatch
14pool
17ovie + 1st gas
as soon as pool pops 2sets of lings + queen
2nd queen as Nat pops
and almost always a Roach warren at about 20-21 skipping ling speed till later.
He does exact same vs Terran and Toss except he dosent get the Roach Warren right away vs toss. I notice sometimes he will go 15gas 14 pool But I cant figure out what makes him choose between the 2 builds.
Anyway I just wanted to get a high level players opinion on that kind of opening build/Maybe you could tell me why he sometimes goes 15gas 14pool instead. It must be decent because hes 11th in NA server. Thanks alot
15 hatch is usually a blind economic opener. Meaning if your opponent opened up aggressively, you outright lose. On 2 player maps you can scout quickly to determine his barracks/gateway timing but he also has the option to block your natural hatchery with a fast scout. On 4 player maps you can't scout all the positions by the time you need to place the hatchery so you outright die to 10 rax or 10gate.
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EPT
