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Hi Guys,
I am an average zerg player. with game average 70 APM
but i am having very hard in ZvP . and i mean very hard time !!
if i play versus a less skilled player i loose easily to a 4 gate or even 5-6 gates FE fom the Protoss.
when i get around 60 or 70 supply, the protoss has so much units that they overwhelm me.
usually its not even close !! and usually i am on 2 (mining) bases and when he attacks he us just taking his 1st expansion !
even with 3-4 spine i can do much !!
i need help !! short replays can be provided if someone can help ! is there any specific BO ?
i am surely doing something wrong !! maybe droning up to hard? (which i dont think coz i watch replays and i'm usually equal in drones with toss at this point)
i used to be plat in 1v1 in BETA !! but now i am stuck in gold and cannot move higher !!
![[image loading]](http://sc2sig.com/s/us/1064604-1.png)
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I'm a 1000 diamond zerg, still pretty noobish, but I would say my "trick" to holding off a lot of early bullshit is a 3rd queen. The 3rd queen can do many things:
1) transfuse a spine crawler in the case of an early push, this can be incredibly valuable in some infanty all-ins
2) You will need it to defend against some fast banshees (transfuse also comes in handy here)
3) you can block the ramp against delayed, non-drop blue flame hellions
4) to help tank for your units and spine crawlers for some timing attacks (including 4 gate)
I will say one thing that's saved me in MANY games:
If you see your opponent attacking and you think there's any chance you won't be able to hold it, bring your queen from your main down to your natural, it can both do and absorb damage. If you're ahead economically losing the queens is not the end of the world, losing your natural normally is.
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On September 23 2010 06:12 skindzer wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2010 06:03 Morik wrote:
Saracen--could you (or one of the other high level zergs in this thread) briefly explain the reason why top zerg players do not use minimap larvae spawning? I ask because I do use it, and I'm wondering if there is something about it which is going to bite me later on at higher levels of play. (I'm high platinum right now)
Thanks! Honestly just use what suits you better, im assuming the "top zerg" you are refering use the 6-7-8-9 hotkey method for each queen. I use this same methot pretty much because its also a fast way to look at your different bases , 6 main, 7 nat, 8 third, etc... Also when im defending against some kind of void ray rush or annoying drops i put 2 queens on each hatcher and bind them both to that number so if for example the void ray is attacking my nat i just press 7 and make my queens attack it, then if he tries to fly away over my main base i already have the my other queens ready just 6a and its done.
Hmm, my main reason for shying away from it is my hotkey setup:
1-4 army
5 all hatcheries
6 all queens
7 all buildings with researchable upgrades in them
8 un-used creep tumors (for quick spreading... I find I don't actually use this very often though)
9 & 0 for scouts/overseers. I have a keyboard with side keys, and have 9 & 0 bound over there for easy access without having to reach all the way across my keyboard.
If minimap inject isn't going to be awful for some reason later, I'll just keep doing it that way. (Or could use the shift + backspace method... could even bind another of those side keys to backspace for easy access)
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On September 23 2010 06:15 SeaSmoke wrote:
OMG thank you so much for this thread. I'm 900ish diamond and fell into a trap of getting too many easy wins in ZvP with 5RR. I've found myself lost in the matchup now for it.
I'm seeing a general consensus on mass +1 speedlings as the standard vs 4 gate but am wondering if a transition to mutas after defending would be a proper play? Seeing as how the opponent will almost certainly go to collosus and have a much less stalker heavy army.
Also, have we now moved completely away from hydras in ZvP? No one has mentioned using them in the match up in the thread (unless I've missed it).
Hi i am 1075 points at the moment.
Hydra is the easiest way to open against Toss players that go heavy voidray or phoenix since they wont have gas for storm or colossi but if the game goes on too long they will. At the moment i open with lings and get mutas after that i get instant roaches so i can mass roaches against the zealots and roaches are somewhat better against colossi than hydras ( they dont melt away that fast ).
Since you now have a fast roach / ling army you can easilly snipe down nexus's and quickly escape with burrow and just straight running. if the game goes on too long i wouldnt full on engage with roaches and lings i would macro up and get a few broordlords.
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On September 23 2010 06:15 SeaSmoke wrote:
OMG thank you so much for this thread. I'm 900ish diamond and fell into a trap of getting too many easy wins in ZvP with 5RR. I've found myself lost in the matchup now for it.
I'm seeing a general consensus on mass +1 speedlings as the standard vs 4 gate but am wondering if a transition to mutas after defending would be a proper play? Seeing as how the opponent will almost certainly go to collosus and have a much less stalker heavy army.
Also, have we now moved completely away from hydras in ZvP? No one has mentioned using them in the match up in the thread (unless I've missed it).
I personally tend to always transition to mutalisk,specially if instead of doing a standard 4 gate they go for 3gate + robo. Something to keep in mind is that lings CAN defeat collosus pretty well with good positioning, specially is the Toss is careless enough to attack with is first collo without waiting for the upgrade to finish.
Hydras tend to be more of a reactive unit, you make them against an air heavy toss, you dont really want to start by making hydras because the P will LOVE to counter with collosi.
Also once you start with roaches and are in the midgame you should always put an hydra den because a big roach army wont be able to hit all at a time because of range and also a bigger % of the P stalkers will be able to attack you so after midgame i tend to go something like 1 hydra per 2.5 roach. Obviously you should also have a spire up because after the third collosi if the P has any idea what he is doing your roaches will have a really hard time hitting them specially on maps like LT or Metalopolis where there are lots of abusable cliffs.
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Im a pretty new player (zerg ) and as I'm stuck@ rank 1-2 silver I'm obviously not very good. At first I blamed my horrible mechanics and lack of Rts exp in the last 8 years. Well I got alot better and climbed up to my current spot. Then I started focusing on micro and strategy as my faults. I learned alot from TL, day 9, and others, but still not winning enough to advance. I realized that I simply need to go back to focusing on mechanics/macro.
So, my question is.... What is the best build/unit comp to use as little micro as possible and really let me improve my zerg macro? The most a-move centric army I can muster. From most of what I read, until upper plat, superior macro almost always wins. I enjoy micro parts of the game the most but must sacrifice to improve and seek the guidance of TL
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On September 23 2010 06:15 SeaSmoke wrote:
OMG thank you so much for this thread. I'm 900ish diamond and fell into a trap of getting too many easy wins in ZvP with 5RR. I've found myself lost in the matchup now for it.
I'm seeing a general consensus on mass +1 speedlings as the standard vs 4 gate but am wondering if a transition to mutas after defending would be a proper play? Seeing as how the opponent will almost certainly go to collosus and have a much less stalker heavy army.
Also, have we now moved completely away from hydras in ZvP? No one has mentioned using them in the match up in the thread (unless I've missed it).
Sure, I don't see why not. Don't underestimate how well upgrade lings with a good flank can do vs an army like that. P wont have enough money to produce from all 4 of his gates, as well as getting colos+range, so he won't really have many ground units to support the colos.
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What types of attacks do you tend to find most effective in the various matchups?
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Hey, good thread!
I haven't seen a lot of discussion about early hydras in ZvP.
Do you think it is possible to make a timing attack with hydras (on 2 bases) when you FE or speedling/expand against a protoss before they get a good number of colossus or storm? on which map would it be possible if any?
I have been doing this recently (speedling and hydras, and attack when their expand is finished, semi all-in for me yes) and it has worked so far but I play against ~1k diamond only, and they tend to expo late or make flawed 4 gate pushes, so i'm wondering if this could work against higher level players or if i should just plan for a longer game in general. Any ideas?
Also am I too vulnerable to a nicely executed 4gate when doing this? (I mean fast lair, fast hydra, depending on the map yes I know!)
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On September 23 2010 08:58 hihu wrote:
Hey, good thread!
I haven't seen a lot of discussion about early hydras in ZvP.
Do you think it is possible to make a timing attack with hydras (on 2 bases) when you FE or speedling/expand against a protoss before they get a good number of colossus or storm? on which map would it be possible if any?
Hydras are pretty terrible off creep. Additionally, any time you FE as Zerg, unless Toss is going FE as well, you can pretty much count on him being the aggressor.
In other words: No.
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On September 23 2010 06:03 Morik wrote:
Saracen--could you (or one of the other high level zergs in this thread) briefly explain the reason why top zerg players do not use minimap larvae spawning? I ask because I do use it, and I'm wondering if there is something about it which is going to bite me later on at higher levels of play. (I'm high platinum right now)
Thanks!
Use whichever is the best for you. The important part is not missing them. If you can do it on the minimap then go for it. If it takes you a few clicks to hit the hatch then I suggest trying something else out. Personally I put all queens on one hotkey and just click the minimap to inject each one because the closest one will inject. That way I can take a quick look at all my bases and see what is going on at each one. Again, it's just personal preference really.
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On September 23 2010 09:02 MrBitter wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2010 08:58 hihu wrote:
Hey, good thread!
I haven't seen a lot of discussion about early hydras in ZvP.
Do you think it is possible to make a timing attack with hydras (on 2 bases) when you FE or speedling/expand against a protoss before they get a good number of colossus or storm? on which map would it be possible if any?
Hydras are pretty terrible off creep. Additionally, any time you FE as Zerg, unless Toss is going FE as well, you can pretty much count on him being the aggressor. In other words: No.
I think his question assumed the protoss expanded as well. I've never really tried something like this before, but I think the limiting factor would be the distance between bases. Like MrBitter said, the difference between hydras on creep and hydras off creep is so gigantic, you'd either need to have locations that were close enough to get creep tumors over to their nat in time for the the attack (like 3v6 or 12v9 on LT, scrap station, close pos on metal, steppes), or somehow be able to get 3/4 overlords to spawn creep around the opponents nat, speed ovies would help with this I guess.
Although the biggest problem would obviously be the P chronoboosting the hell out of his colos once he knows whats up, and most PvZ builds that FE include teching to colos pretty damn fast.
I'll mess around with this and see what I can figure out.
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On September 23 2010 06:03 Morik wrote:
Saracen--could you (or one of the other high level zergs in this thread) briefly explain the reason why top zerg players do not use minimap larvae spawning? I ask because I do use it, and I'm wondering if there is something about it which is going to bite me later on at higher levels of play. (I'm high platinum right now)
Thanks!
If you can do it that way quickly under stress, go for it. Personally, I've never had the best mouse control, and fumbling around on the minimap while im trying to scout, macro, micro, spread creep, doesn't sound like the best idea to me. Also, I think having all your queens on individual hotkeys gives you a huge advantage when it comes to running drones from harass, jumping from base to base to place buildings, etc.
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In ZvZ I've been trying a fast +1 Speed Roach build and its been working fairly well around the 1100 level, and I wanted to know everyone's thoughts on the viability of this at a higher level. Here's the build:
14 gas
13 Pool
15 Ovie
17 Queen
20 Roach Warren
20 Evo
20 Ovie, 3 Roaches
+1 When Evo is done, Lair with next 100 gas, pump Roaches
When Lair is done, speed for Roaches and pump until speed is done.
At this time you should have about 13-15 Roaches, and that's when you push. If your opponent went Roach too, you win, if he went Muta hell only have a couple and you can probably take out his Lair and force a gg before your roaches die.
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First off I would like to thank MrBitter for becoming some sort of assistant to this growing thread- Saracen is an extremely intelligent zerg player but when there are 50+ questions asked, this guy is helping those people too.
Second, a few pages ago a guy named "Hammurabio" asked a small question that went unanswered, and its simple enough that even I, low leveler, can answer. His question involved zerg upgrading, and that it takes like a half hour for one evo chamber to research all of the upgrades. (lol thats a really long time.) He was wondering if double evo chambers (and double spires- get to that later) were worth investing in-
YES, absolutely yes. Lets just compare to the protoss really quickly, they have access to the chronoboost macro management ability, so building a second forge for ground upgrades isn't all that much more beneficial if a P player is keeping on top cboosting.
For mid/late game play, it is absolutely crucial for any zerg players to build a second evo chamber (or build 2 if they don't have any up to that point.) Think about it terms like this- two evo chambers can research two different upgrades at the same time. Thats a huge difference. With two evo chambers, once they finish your army would have a +1/+1 advantage, compared to a +0/+1 or +1/+0.
However, as of now, building two air upgrade facilities (I think for all three races) isn't that much more beneficial then just the one/
The reason- the building itself is quite expensive. A spire cost 200 minerels, 200 gas. Two spires? thats 400 gas- equivalent to two ultralisks worth in gas. All the gas spent into building the second air upgrade building could have been more actual air units.
For the zerg example, building a spire and then starting to research a second upgrade could have been gas spent on 3-4 mutas (a significant amount), or gas spent on teching up to better units.
Wow, lengthy response, but a necessary one, at least for me to better conceptualize zerg macro game play.
Lastly, back on the first page, Saracen posted a replay for me of a ZvT on him succesfully defending multiple mech pushes- mass thors, mass tanks, hellions, all very frightening, I suggest everyone check it out to learn one thing I think new comers aren't understanding-
TL strategy posts/ questions are filled with things like "If he builds x unit at y time, what units should I use to counter and when should I build them?"
This is all good and whatnot, but for a zerg player, this is missing the big picture.
POSITIONING>ARMY COMPOSITION.
What does positioning mean? well for zerg it means getting a surround with zerglings and ultralisks to maximize melee damage, or getting a huge concave to increase the surface area of which roaches can attack with their ranged acid spit. It also involves flanking with a small portion of side units to attack from all angles.
Saracen's replay- WINS the game solely because of this. Do watch it! He does all of the above with finesse. Ultralisks surround, roach tunnel/ concave, banelings flank... So much to learn from that replay. Creep is solely a zerg mechanic because it enable one to do these at a much faster rate.
I see many people whine and claim that "oh Terran is so OP because a max 200/200 army will beat out a max 200/200 zerg army." Ironically enough, Saracen in that replay has his 200/200 army face off against the terran mech army of 200/200, and I'd say 2 of the 3 major battles his army just barely lost out. But I bet you 50 bucks that, say he burrowed 2 ultralisks on the main attack path, then had just those two units attack the exposed back of the army, he would have won HANDS DOWN. I bet you 100 bucks that if that lane was fully creeped, the zerg would have won lopsidedly. I think earlier in the thread somebody said 50% of zerg battles is determined by positioning and 50% army composition, well I'd say its more of 70% positioning, 30% army composition. That 30% only being that if a terran goes something like mass marauders, you don't get 30 roaches. Thats it.
If you've made it this far, props on you to listening to me rant. I'll leave you with this lesson I learned from Saracen and MrBitter- as a zerg player looking to learn from TL (like me,) think less in what unit hard counters what, but what creative things you can do as a zerg to gain the edge.
In that replay, why didn't saracen morph in an overseer and harass with just that? For 7+minutes he had a hero Ovie in the terran's main spewing creep for that entire time period. 7 minutes, the terran did nothing. He could have contaminated those 8 factories a bunch of times over, delaying the timing push and forcing the terran to waste mins on turrets.
Ok now I'm done!!! 
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Hey guys, I'm 800+ diamond and I'm having alot of trouble ZvP. I practice my ZvP often with a friend I met on the ladder. He does the same exact strategy pretty much every time which is 2 gate push at 3-5 zealots into cyber core + expand. I always try to stop his expansion but always fail because he has units waiting for me at his nat. He then goes 4-10 gate high templar late game. Every time I watch a replay between him and I, I never see a time at which I would actually be able to take on his army.
My build is:
15 gas
14 pool
21 exp
Usually when my hatch is a quarter of the way done, his zealots show up and I always know they are coming (from my scouting). When my pool finishes, I pump nothing but lings to be able to defend my natural. I send my lings + queen to natural to defend and can usually kill it off. From there, I have no idea what to do. I've literally tried everything. I've tried muta harrass, roach + hydra, +1 lings, quick hive tech, nothing works seemingly. He almost always out macros me and by the time he pushes he has storm which DESTROYS my army. His unit comp is always a mix of zealots stalkers and HT. The times that I do out macro him, I'm lacking in army and he just pushes and wins. I'm at a lose of what to do. I feel like I really need to not be pumping those initial lings to keep up but I have to so I won't lose my expansion. Any ideas??
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On September 23 2010 07:01 gmorf33 wrote:
Im a pretty new player (zerg ) and as I'm stuck@ rank 1-2 silver I'm obviously not very good. At first I blamed my horrible mechanics and lack of Rts exp in the last 8 years. Well I got alot better and climbed up to my current spot. Then I started focusing on micro and strategy as my faults. I learned alot from TL, day 9, and others, but still not winning enough to advance. I realized that I simply need to go back to focusing on mechanics/macro.
So, my question is.... What is the best build/unit comp to use as little micro as possible and really let me improve my zerg macro? The most a-move centric army I can muster. From most of what I read, until upper plat, superior macro almost always wins. I enjoy micro parts of the game the most but must sacrifice to improve and seek the guidance of TL
I would say roach/hydra/ling would be a good bet for just working on macro and not worrying too much about microing. That's what I used to use all the time when I was silver back in the beta and now I've transitioned into using mutas more in every matchup most of the time. 1k diamond zerg now.
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I was wondering if anyone could go over the Zerg Macro-oriented builds and their Pro/Cons? Especially how they work on Small vs. Large maps.
EDIT: Also, especially pertaining to two base, three hatchery, that build is very interesting to me.
Thanks. :D
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On September 23 2010 10:22 LaZaZiO wrote:
Hey guys, I'm 800+ diamond and I'm having alot of trouble ZvP. I practice my ZvP often with a friend I met on the ladder. He does the same exact strategy pretty much every time which is 2 gate push at 3-5 zealots into cyber core + expand. I always try to stop his expansion but always fail because he has units waiting for me at his nat. He then goes 4-10 gate high templar late game. Every time I watch a replay between him and I, I never see a time at which I would actually be able to take on his army.
My build is:
15 gas
14 pool
21 exp
Usually when my hatch is a quarter of the way done, his zealots show up and I always know they are coming (from my scouting). When my pool finishes, I pump nothing but lings to be able to defend my natural. I send my lings + queen to natural to defend and can usually kill it off. From there, I have no idea what to do. I've literally tried everything. I've tried muta harrass, roach + hydra, +1 lings, quick hive tech, nothing works seemingly. He almost always out macros me and by the time he pushes he has storm which DESTROYS my army. His unit comp is always a mix of zealots stalkers and HT. The times that I do out macro him, I'm lacking in army and he just pushes and wins. I'm at a lose of what to do. I feel like I really need to not be pumping those initial lings to keep up but I have to so I won't lose my expansion. Any ideas??
I'll answer this from my 1100+ Diamond.
Something that seems to be currently overlooked is the roach. Not the roach as a part of roach hydra, but just the roach. Super fast mutas are very hit or miss (if he goes fast phoenix/mass marine you lose) whereas roach into muta supported with speedlings gives you more time to scout (before committing to mutas) and roaches are great against zealots.
My advice, put some pressure on. I have found a gas pool into roach (skip speed if necessary) to be quite nice. Get the roaches up get an expand up nice and safe, get speed a little later (you don't need super early speedlings vs zealots, you need them for stalkers).
On most maps you can pressure his expand, expand back door or main back door a lot with just 8-10 roaches while still getting your expand up and getting upgrades (notably lair, roach speed ling speed and either carapace or melee attack). The roaches force him to spend gas on stalkers and sentries (in rather large amounts) which slows down tech and if he doesn't get enough, crush him. Remember to pick off odd pylons, proxy pylons and anything used as a wall. Now you need an overseer (or some lucky lings) to get scouting info. Once you have that, take a third or tech up to whatever is necessary. Also try to deny observers (even just by having some spore crawlers around the main) so he has to play in the dark a little.
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On September 23 2010 10:40 Uhh Negative wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2010 07:01 gmorf33 wrote:
Im a pretty new player (zerg ) and as I'm stuck@ rank 1-2 silver I'm obviously not very good. At first I blamed my horrible mechanics and lack of Rts exp in the last 8 years. Well I got alot better and climbed up to my current spot. Then I started focusing on micro and strategy as my faults. I learned alot from TL, day 9, and others, but still not winning enough to advance. I realized that I simply need to go back to focusing on mechanics/macro.
So, my question is.... What is the best build/unit comp to use as little micro as possible and really let me improve my zerg macro? The most a-move centric army I can muster. From most of what I read, until upper plat, superior macro almost always wins. I enjoy micro parts of the game the most but must sacrifice to improve and seek the guidance of TL
I would say roach/hydra/ling would be a good bet for just working on macro and not worrying too much about microing. That's what I used to use all the time when I was silver back in the beta and now I've transitioned into using mutas more in every matchup most of the time. 1k diamond zerg now.
Id love to do mutas more often but with my crappy macro I never have enough mutas in time to be effective at harassment, or my ground army is so weak the enemy realizes he can ignore my harass and just steam rolls my base.
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EPT
