EPTis sen's zvp 10 pool opening the only valid opening now?
The Zerg Help Me Thread - Page 13
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Sfydjklm
United States9218 Posts
is sen's zvp 10 pool opening the only valid opening now? | ||
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hakundo
25 Posts
Then they go for some gateway units / FE. Nydus feels like an allin and if I break out of my base, I feel sooooo far behind :-( | ||
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Sixes
Canada1123 Posts
On September 24 2010 01:03 hakundo wrote: I've also got trouble as a ~1050 diamond player versus Protoss who either double pylon + cannon my ramp or do ~ 3pylons 3cannons close to the ramp, so the sunkens can't hit them from the top. Then they go for some gateway units / FE. Nydus feels like an allin and if I break out of my base, I feel sooooo far behind :-( Remember that he costs himself a huge amount when doing this, you aren't far behind. Just break it then apply pressure while expanding. Ideally you want to spot this with your 9 OL and get a drone down there to delay it by blocking the placements and harassing the probe. Preferably delay it enough that you can get some lings out to tackle the pylons. This sort of delay also means his placement will be less perfect and your eventual roaches can have an easier time breaking it. | ||
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skindzer
Chile5114 Posts
On September 24 2010 01:03 hakundo wrote: I've also got trouble as a ~1050 diamond player versus Protoss who either double pylon + cannon my ramp or do ~ 3pylons 3cannons close to the ramp, so the sunkens can't hit them from the top. Use a tumor. + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://img834.imageshack.us/img834/9557/58110666.png) I just build the spine crawler the moment i see the pylons going up that way he cant cannon up the ramp. If he gets cannons up the ramp things get hard but as long as they stay down and you stay calm youll always end up ahead, hes investing 350 in "nothing" early game while you can invest 100 in a single defense to stop it and just power drones those other 250 minerals. Also, even if you need to hit a cannon first your spine crawler will end up alive cause the cannon wont be able to hit while its burrowing because it wont have vision. | ||
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Sfydjklm
United States9218 Posts
On September 24 2010 01:50 Sixes wrote: Remember that he costs himself a huge amount when doing this, you aren't far behind. Just break it then apply pressure while expanding. Ideally you want to spot this with your 9 OL and get a drone down there to delay it by blocking the placements and harassing the probe. Preferably delay it enough that you can get some lings out to tackle the pylons. This sort of delay also means his placement will be less perfect and your eventual roaches can have an easier time breaking it. you cant break it cause forcefields lolz. On September 24 2010 02:03 skindzer wrote: Use a tumor. + Show Spoiler + I just build the spine crawler the moment i see the pylons going up that way he cant cannon up the ramp. If he gets cannons up the ramp things get hard but as long as they stay down and you stay calm youll always end up ahead, hes investing 350 in "nothing" early game while you can invest 100 in a single defense to stop it and just power drones those other 250 minerals. Also, even if you need to hit a cannon first your spine crawler will end up alive cause the cannon wont be able to hit while its burrowing because it wont have vision. he just said they place cannons so that sunken cant hit em from the top of the ramp. Going up the ramp with cannons isnt the point of that strat at all so it makes me question what level you're on. And powering drones is only good for that mucch, eventually youll face diminishing returns and both 4 gate followup and quick expo will set u far behind(he'll poke u to death with stalkers while 4 gating and if he expos haha good luck doing anything. | ||
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skindzer
Chile5114 Posts
On September 24 2010 02:34 Sfydjklm wrote: you cant break it cause forcefields lolz. he just said they place cannons so that sunken cant hit em from the top of the ramp. Going up the ramp with cannons isnt the point of that strat at all so it makes me question what level you're on. And powering drones is only good for that mucch, eventually youll face diminishing returns and both 4 gate followup and quick expo will set u far behind(he'll poke u to death with stalkers while 4 gating and if he expos haha good luck doing anything. Im not saying to power drones as a way to replace having a natural, im just saying that it gives you a "free round" of drones and also i didnt say the purpose of that "strategy" was to have cannons up in the main, just that this prevents it. But yeah, i probably havent played against this particulary, maybe what he/you mean is that they place cannons far from the pylons? Care to share a rep? Cause ive never played against what i believe you are saying. Or add me and we can try it :D | ||
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Kaavak
Japan2 Posts
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Sixes
Canada1123 Posts
On September 24 2010 02:34 Sfydjklm wrote: you cant break it cause forcefields lolz. he just said they place cannons so that sunken cant hit em from the top of the ramp. Going up the ramp with cannons isnt the point of that strat at all so it makes me question what level you're on. And powering drones is only good for that mucch, eventually youll face diminishing returns and both 4 gate followup and quick expo will set u far behind(he'll poke u to death with stalkers while 4 gating and if he expos haha good luck doing anything. If the player has multiple sentries, 3 cannons 3 pylons (at your base) all before you have a few roaches, you have done something wrong. Timing for roaches is around when a toss has 5 zealots coming up your ramp on Steppes ... If you see this stuff, 5 RR, it gives you the roaches to break through and enough for the expand. A protoss player can't have 3 cannons 3 pylons (at your base) and sentries blocking your ramp by the 5 minute mark. In fact I'm pretty sure even just getting sentries there would be tough, there's a reason Tester does a pylon and cannon block, if he could just get sentries and get the Z stuck I doubt he would bother (he needs 3? sentries for a permanent forcefield and they delay tech with their gas cost). Remember as well that any fast cannon (so forge first) build delays gateways (which delays cyber). | ||
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MrBitter
United States2940 Posts
On September 24 2010 01:03 hakundo wrote: I've also got trouble as a ~1050 diamond player versus Protoss who either double pylon + cannon my ramp or do ~ 3pylons 3cannons close to the ramp, so the sunkens can't hit them from the top. Then they go for some gateway units / FE. Nydus feels like an allin and if I break out of my base, I feel sooooo far behind :-( There was a pretty cool discussion on this situation in the most recent state of the game podcast. Artosis argues that once that wall goes up, there's literally no way for Zerg to gain an advantage. Day[9] disagreed, and they both went back and forth about it for a few minutes. Definitely worth checking out. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=145494 My take on this: I agree with Artosis. I feel like no matter what, if those pylons go up, we're behind. There are two ways to win from behind: 1.) Play as standard as you can, and hope your opponent screws up 2.) Go all in, and hope it works When I get walled in, I all-in with mass lings and Nydus. Most toss anticipate a roach play, and have stalkers and cannons in place. It's also pretty common for them to throw down a Stargate incase of muta. And you can count on a few cannons at their nat. But, if you drop an in-base hatch (I'll actually drop 2) and just make nothing but lings until your Nydus is up, Toss is going to have a very hard time defending your all-in attack. If he has expanded, assuming you don't let yourself get clumped by forcefields, I don't think Toss can defend it... I'll try and find some replays of this strat in action. I know its not a strong, macro solution to the problem of the cannon wall-in, but its the best way I know of to get out of that shitty situation. | ||
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BartooToo
29 Posts
So, my question is, what are things you can do to improve your game? Yes, indeed, play, but what should you do while playing to improve? Thanks in advance, Bart | ||
Liquid`Sheth
United States2095 Posts
Thanks. Sheth | ||
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Uranium
United States1077 Posts
On September 22 2010 06:08 MrBitter wrote: >.< For the sake of improvement, you should be going 14 gas, 14 pool, 21 expand in every game and matchup, excluding ZvZ. In the mirror, 14 gas, 14 pool, sling/bling into expand If you 14 gas 14 pool in ZvZ you will get absolutely demolished by a 6/8 pool. I would suggest never pooling later than 10 pool on a 2-player map in ZvZ. If it's a 4-player map and you are feeling lucky, you can get away with a 13 pool. 10 pool 10 gas into banelings with no ling speed is my "cheesy" ZvZ opener. 11 pool (w/ extractor trick) 10 gas into 5roach rush is a little more standard. | ||
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Xapti
Canada2473 Posts
On September 24 2010 04:40 Uranium wrote: If you 14 gas 14 pool in ZvZ you will get absolutely demolished by a 6/8 pool. I would suggest never pooling later than 10 pool on a 2-player map in ZvZ. If it's a 4-player map and you are feeling lucky, you can get away with a 13 pool. 10 pool 10 gas into banelings with no ling speed is my "cheesy" ZvZ opener. 11 pool (w/ extractor trick) 10 gas into 5roach rush is a little more standard. No way. On steppes of war, a 13 pool can barely beat a 6/7/8 pool spine rush, as long as you play well. 14 pool is pretty much the same thing for any other map. All you need to do is scout (be at their base) before building your 2nd overlord (or first queen), because you don't want another overlord when facing a rush and will loose the game if you build them. | ||
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MrBitter
United States2940 Posts
On September 24 2010 04:17 BartooToo wrote: Hey guys, I've got kind of a standard question, but I couldn't find a satisfying answer anywhere on the site. So, my question is, what are things you can do to improve your game? Yes, indeed, play, but what should you do while playing to improve? Thanks in advance, Bart Play with a plan. If you don't have a plan, you're just playing. If you do have a plan, you're practicing. I go into every game, planning macro effectively enough to win in the mid-late game. This means I have a planned build order through about 32 supply, when I deviate based on what I scout. It means I have planned deviations for what the other guy might be up to. And when I deviate, once I've coped with whatever problem had come up, I return to my original plan: Macroing well for the end game. You can break this down further by having 1 build that you want to practice for each matchup, and 1 aspect of your mechanics that you really want to iron out. For example: Maybe you don't manage your queens exceptionally well. When I was first learning to use my queens, I set up an interval timer (http://www.intervaltimers.net/) to remind me of when I need to inject. After a few days, it became pretty instinctive. Another example: Maybe you're having a hard time keeping your money low. Fix this by saying "every time I see 500 or more minerals, I will plant a hatchery". And adhere to that. And ultimately, just play the game. You'll get better just by playing. Unless you focus on certain things, though, you'll find that you plateau much more frequently. On September 24 2010 04:25 Sheth wrote: I'd like to ask, how do you counter reapers on maps with cliff advantages. IE Kulas, That one newer map Delta Quadrant. Whats your standard build order there? Thanks. Sheth Kulas is just a hard map, period. I currently have it voted down. In general, though, reapers are countered with mobility. In low numbers, speedlings can do just fine. As reaper numbers grow, you'll have to transition to roaches. For roaches to be truly effective, though, you need a good creep spread, and, eventually, roach speed. On September 24 2010 04:40 Uranium wrote: If you 14 gas 14 pool in ZvZ you will get absolutely demolished by a 6/8 pool. I would suggest never pooling later than 10 pool on a 2-player map in ZvZ. If it's a 4-player map and you are feeling lucky, you can get away with a 13 pool. 10 pool 10 gas into banelings with no ling speed is my "cheesy" ZvZ opener. 11 pool (w/ extractor trick) 10 gas into 5roach rush is a little more standard. I would really advise against 10 pool. Its a crutch that will net you some easy wins, but ultimately won't help you to get better. If you're worried about being cheesed, the simple solution is to scout sooner. If I'm playing someone who I know is prone to cheese, or if I'm just feeling vulnerable, I'll scout on 9. You see an early pool? Stop what you're doing and drop your own pool with your next 200 minerals. Then return to what you had planned originally. On September 24 2010 03:03 Kaavak wrote: Not sure if this applies to the thread as much but would you be able to give any hints for newbie 2v2 / 3v3 players who play zerg with against other teams who generally play P/T ? Honestly, for this kind of question, you can get good enough answers here: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/13435/ | ||
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Uranium
United States1077 Posts
On September 24 2010 04:45 Xapti wrote: No way. On steppes of war, a 13 pool can barely beat a 6/7/8 pool spine rush, as long as you play well. 14 pool is pretty much the same thing for any other map. All you need to do is scout (be at their base) before building your 2nd overlord (or first queen), because you don't want another overlord when facing a rush and will loose the game if you build them. OK well will you at least agree that 14 gas 14 pool is too greedy? | ||
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BartooToo
29 Posts
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etceteraetcetera
United States38 Posts
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Sixes
Canada1123 Posts
On September 24 2010 04:49 Uranium wrote: OK well will you at least agree that 14 gas 14 pool is too greedy? Blind 14/14 on a 2 player map is greedy. Sending an early scout it isn't. At around 1100 diamond I see almost only 13-15 pools, 6 pools just die if scouted so people generally don't do them (and 10 pools die to 13-15). The big decisions are roach vs muta vs baneling. | ||
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CONFIG
Romania99 Posts
The best way I found to keep me longer in the game is inferstor ling bling. But I am runned over because I can only defend and he expands with PF. I tried a 20 hatch and a 14 hatch but I can't beat this. Here are the last 2 replays: http://www.2shared.com/file/i0oztT2u/Metalopolis__2_.html http://www.2shared.com/file/VXPYceTa/Metalopolis.html | ||
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Sfydjklm
United States9218 Posts
On September 24 2010 04:09 Sixes wrote: If the player has multiple sentries, 3 cannons 3 pylons (at your base) all before you have a few roaches, you have done something wrong. Timing for roaches is around when a toss has 5 zealots coming up your ramp on Steppes ... If you see this stuff, 5 RR, it gives you the roaches to break through and enough for the expand. A protoss player can't have 3 cannons 3 pylons (at your base) and sentries blocking your ramp by the 5 minute mark. In fact I'm pretty sure even just getting sentries there would be tough, there's a reason Tester does a pylon and cannon block, if he could just get sentries and get the Z stuck I doubt he would bother (he needs 3? sentries for a permanent forcefield and they delay tech with their gas cost). Remember as well that any fast cannon (so forge first) build delays gateways (which delays cyber). i dunno what to say to that because this is not what happens at all. | ||
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