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Replay Link:
http://sc2.replays.net/replay/Sc2Replay.aspx?ReplayID=1660
In the above replay between CauthonLuck and drewbie, both of them go the 1/1/1 build without successfully scouting the enemy.
Key scouting events timeline:
from drewbie's perspective:
3:50 SCV sees 2 CL marines at CL's ramp (can't get in)
5:32 scans CL's base (drewbie has 21 scvs and 7 marines at this point)
from CauthonLuck's perspective:
3:19 SCV sees 1 drewbie marine at drewbie's ramp (can't get in)
3:44 SCV sees 2 drewbie marines at drewbie's ramp (can't get in)
4:57 sees drewbie's hellion
6:50 sees drewbie's banshee
12:07 scans drewbie's base
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So drewbie has NO IDEA what CL is doing up until 5:32 while CauthonLuck has no idea what drewbie is doing up until 4:57 when he sees a hellion.
My question is, what would have happened if one party went mass marines with 3 or 4 barracks? How would they defend from such an attack since they seemingly aren't afraid of it?
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the information they pull from a scout is a lot more in depth then simply the buildings they have but im sure they would have a way to hold an attack like that, maybe helions?
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It's generally obvious when somebody is going to marine rush, and marine rushes are very easy to stop.
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How is it obvious when there is no information to indicate that until too late?
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Because the time it takes to mass a force of marines off 3-4 rax is larger than the window where drewbie has a lack of information I suppose. I've never done it, though I have been marine rushed before, and you seem to catch it just before it comes out with the 3rd scan (Which is I guess when Drewbie scanned based off the timings in your post). Then you can throw down bunkers and counter it.
Now note I haven't watched the replay being away from my SC2 computer.
But I did test some timings a while back with a mass marine push, and there is a -very- small window to get there before siege tech comes out. And of course seige tech wrecks marines.
So to answer your questions,
1) The other player would struggle to hold it, but probably hold it just with the help of some bunkers.
2) Bunkers and Siege tech.
It just isn't a extremely viable strategy, as Siege tech shuts it down. If they are skipping it to get a fast banshee it probably is more effective, but, you don't want to do a strategy off the hopes that he doesn't do strategy X. [X being siege tech]. Maybe in the next patch where tanks will need 2 shots to kill a marine it will become more common, which in turn will probably limit the number of players that do that fast banshee opening.
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Yeah I tend to see this sought of stuff slot in games and think what if the guy just 4 warp gated or marine rushed he hasn't got anything but I just accepted that these guys are just at a level that I can't fathom yet and I should just accept they know whats up 
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Ok even though they didnt do it that game, people usually park something in a key location such as watchtower. at about 5 minutes you cannot get a large enough marine difference, (mayb 1-2 production cycles max depending on how fast you got your raxes) so equating to about 5-6 extra marines which one bunker would negate as well as scvs. On top of that, the cross position all but guarantee that to make the build effective you would need to skip gas and double rax open which would mean you have more marines than you should when the scv pokes at the base the first time.
The danger in going marine all in on that map is that it is very easy to have siege tank and siege mode done which would just negate the build. On other maps where rush distance is short like Steppes, you get your scouting scv in alot earlier, and get to see their first marine build which gives you good info already. Also since theres only 1 attack path keeping an scv just around the wide ramp past the natural spots and kind of push coming out and if the numbers dont add up, emergency bunkers can still make it even on that map.
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Why should they be scared? Mass Marine isn't really all that terrifying, I'm still in bronze and even I don't find it all that scary. It's immensely powerful against air, but if you're rushing air you'll wall in or at least build some static defenses.
For Terran, siege tanks shut it right down, and any bio ball would do reasonably well.
For Zerg, banelings will slaughter it, and roaches will do reasonably well.
For Protoss, zealot will hold their own with no real problems.
Marines are only really scary because they provide incredibly air support for units which can't shoot up(essentially negating that weakness in both marauders and tanks, and enhancing the AA of thors).
You simply cannot mass enough marines for them to become an overwhelming force on their own before the other races can start building units which counter them.
Neither of those players were acting like they were rushing air(no wall in, no static d, no odd shortage of rax units, and any build they could have come up with that didn't involve rushing air would have been steam rolled by mass marines, so why would they build them?
Sure a mass marine build could have won against an MM build, or another mass marine build, or a hellion build, or they might have caught their opponent building nothing more than a show army either to rush to air or because their brain had suddenly dipped down into bronze league for the night, but unless you dramatically out skill your opponent or hit an incredibly unlikely scenario(rush to air with no static defenses, or a diamond player playing like bronze), your odds are at best 50/50, and probably significantly worse since your opponent has to wipe out stragglers if you happen to pull through with a couple of units left, and if you lose that bet, you're gone.
You don't get to be a diamond league player by playing coin flip builds, cheese and all ins certainly happen, but generally when then have a better than even chance of succeeding.
In the lower leagues stuff like that works because your opponents lack of skill increases the odds, 6 pool shouldn't really be a threat to anyone, but it works more often than not in bronze. Baneling busts are trivial to defend against, but people in bronze and silver don't. People in platinum on the other hand do, and a 50/50 win ratio won't get you promoted out of a league.
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because a bunker or even just the high ground advantage can be enough to stop a marine rush.
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blings burrow at ur choke points. Spread them out a bit. Not every terran player scan when push. Boom dead marines.
User was warned for this post
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On September 18 2010 01:19 eskarel wrote:
Why should they be scared? Mass Marine isn't really all that terrifying, I'm still in bronze and even I don't find it all that scary. It's immensely powerful against air, but if you're rushing air you'll wall in or at least build some static defenses.
For Terran, siege tanks shut it right down, and any bio ball would do reasonably well.
For Zerg, banelings will slaughter it, and roaches will do reasonably well.
For Protoss, zealot will hold their own with no real problems.
Marines are only really scary because they provide incredibly air support for units which can't shoot up(essentially negating that weakness in both marauders and tanks, and enhancing the AA of thors).
You simply cannot mass enough marines for them to become an overwhelming force on their own before the other races can start building units which counter them.
Neither of those players were acting like they were rushing air(no wall in, no static d, no odd shortage of rax units, and any build they could have come up with that didn't involve rushing air would have been steam rolled by mass marines, so why would they build them?
Sure a mass marine build could have won against an MM build, or another mass marine build, or a hellion build, or they might have caught their opponent building nothing more than a show army either to rush to air or because their brain had suddenly dipped down into bronze league for the night, but unless you dramatically out skill your opponent or hit an incredibly unlikely scenario(rush to air with no static defenses, or a diamond player playing like bronze), your odds are at best 50/50, and probably significantly worse since your opponent has to wipe out stragglers if you happen to pull through with a couple of units left, and if you lose that bet, you're gone.
You don't get to be a diamond league player by playing coin flip builds, cheese and all ins certainly happen, but generally when then have a better than even chance of succeeding.
In the lower leagues stuff like that works because your opponents lack of skill increases the odds, 6 pool shouldn't really be a threat to anyone, but it works more often than not in bronze. Baneling busts are trivial to defend against, but people in bronze and silver don't. People in platinum on the other hand do, and a 50/50 win ratio won't get you promoted out of a league.
Hehehehe.....
Siege tanks beat mass marines - obvious
Banelings beat mass marines - situational
zealots beat mass marines - not without proper terrain or a few friends to assist.
I'm not taking a big "mass marines is OP" stance so you can relax about that.
Marines aren't scary because of their anti air capacity, they are scary because they are a cheap glass cannon that the terran player can produce quickly.
And baneling busts aren't trivial to defend against if you opponent knows how to do them right.
Other than that, your argument is mostly correct. All in builds like mass marine are a double edged sword. If either player had chosen to go that route, there is a good chance that they would have won the game. However, if they had gotten scouted by their opponent, it would have been a huge disdvantage early game. The reasons most diamond players dont do all in plays are as follows.
1. As the name implies, it is a risky tactic that has the chance of giving your opponent an easy win.
2. Most players (even the really good ones) have a comfort zone that they operate in. What I mean by this is that it is second nature for most players to do their standard opening, they have done it 1000 times, they know exactly how to use it and exactly how it reacts to each build. When the player converts to an all in strategy, there are more grey areas for them to deal with. How do i measure the effectiveness of this tactic? When should I shift gears? How do I react to X, Y, and Z? Even for a pro player, it takes time to adapt to a knew build. Yes the player could practice the build and use it in their ladder games, but then they become an all in player, and all in players don't last very long in at upper ratings. As a result, it is reasonable to assume that your opponent is not going to pull an all in attack especially at such a high level due to the fact that they are much more comfortable with their less cheesy opener that has won them most of their games thus far.
To use an example, consider a toss player opening 10gate zealot rush. I play P, and in a fair number of my PvP matchups, I push into my opponents base thinking "man I could have killed this guy with an early rush" but I still don't open 10gate in my next PvP game. The reason is that my opponent could scout it at the wrong time and im dead, or my opponent goes 2 gate robo and im dead, or I mess up my timing by 8 seconds and a sentry locks one of my zeals out....and im dead. If none of these things happens, yes I will get a quick win with little satisfaction, but why risk it when I can win with my own skill rather than gambling? Besides, if im in a tourney and I beat one guy with all in, I guarantee that strat will be moot against the rest of the people I play against.
3. Intuition/Spider Sense: I really don't know how to explain this other than to say that after playing a certain number of games, every player has a bit of a subconscious read for the all in play. It may be how your opponent scouts, or simply......something... that lets a player know that something is up. I believe it's called Map Awareness when people talk about Flash.
At any rate, you will occasionally see pro players go all in against eachother relying on the other player not expecting the move. However, this is a rarity amongst players.
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Mass Marines is actually quite effective against Protoss on big ramp or wide choke maps. Some GSL matches had mass Marines beating some Protoss. Ran out of FF energy on the big ramps and the Marines just stormed in.
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On September 18 2010 03:16 bobcat wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2010 01:19 eskarel wrote:
Why should they be scared? Mass Marine isn't really all that terrifying, I'm still in bronze and even I don't find it all that scary. It's immensely powerful against air, but if you're rushing air you'll wall in or at least build some static defenses.
For Terran, siege tanks shut it right down, and any bio ball would do reasonably well.
For Zerg, banelings will slaughter it, and roaches will do reasonably well.
For Protoss, zealot will hold their own with no real problems.
Marines are only really scary because they provide incredibly air support for units which can't shoot up(essentially negating that weakness in both marauders and tanks, and enhancing the AA of thors).
You simply cannot mass enough marines for them to become an overwhelming force on their own before the other races can start building units which counter them.
Neither of those players were acting like they were rushing air(no wall in, no static d, no odd shortage of rax units, and any build they could have come up with that didn't involve rushing air would have been steam rolled by mass marines, so why would they build them?
Sure a mass marine build could have won against an MM build, or another mass marine build, or a hellion build, or they might have caught their opponent building nothing more than a show army either to rush to air or because their brain had suddenly dipped down into bronze league for the night, but unless you dramatically out skill your opponent or hit an incredibly unlikely scenario(rush to air with no static defenses, or a diamond player playing like bronze), your odds are at best 50/50, and probably significantly worse since your opponent has to wipe out stragglers if you happen to pull through with a couple of units left, and if you lose that bet, you're gone.
You don't get to be a diamond league player by playing coin flip builds, cheese and all ins certainly happen, but generally when then have a better than even chance of succeeding.
In the lower leagues stuff like that works because your opponents lack of skill increases the odds, 6 pool shouldn't really be a threat to anyone, but it works more often than not in bronze. Baneling busts are trivial to defend against, but people in bronze and silver don't. People in platinum on the other hand do, and a 50/50 win ratio won't get you promoted out of a league.
Hehehehe..... Siege tanks beat mass marines - obvious Banelings beat mass marines - situational zealots beat mass marines - not without proper terrain or a few friends to assist. I'm not taking a big "mass marines is OP" stance so you can relax about that. Marines aren't scary because of their anti air capacity, they are scary because they are a cheap glass cannon that the terran player can produce quickly. And baneling busts aren't trivial to defend against if you opponent knows how to do them right. Other than that, your argument is mostly correct. All in builds like mass marine are a double edged sword. If either player had chosen to go that route, there is a good chance that they would have won the game. However, if they had gotten scouted by their opponent, it would have been a huge disdvantage early game. The reasons most diamond players dont do all in plays are as follows. 1. As the name implies, it is a risky tactic that has the chance of giving your opponent an easy win. 2. Most players (even the really good ones) have a comfort zone that they operate in. What I mean by this is that it is second nature for most players to do their standard opening, they have done it 1000 times, they know exactly how to use it and exactly how it reacts to each build. When the player converts to an all in strategy, there are more grey areas for them to deal with. How do i measure the effectiveness of this tactic? When should I shift gears? How do I react to X, Y, and Z? Even for a pro player, it takes time to adapt to a knew build. Yes the player could practice the build and use it in their ladder games, but then they become an all in player, and all in players don't last very long in at upper ratings. As a result, it is reasonable to assume that your opponent is not going to pull an all in attack especially at such a high level due to the fact that they are much more comfortable with their less cheesy opener that has won them most of their games thus far. To use an example, consider a toss player opening 10gate zealot rush. I play P, and in a fair number of my PvP matchups, I push into my opponents base thinking "man I could have killed this guy with an early rush" but I still don't open 10gate in my next PvP game. The reason is that my opponent could scout it at the wrong time and im dead, or my opponent goes 2 gate robo and im dead, or I mess up my timing by 8 seconds and a sentry locks one of my zeals out....and im dead. If none of these things happens, yes I will get a quick win with little satisfaction, but why risk it when I can win with my own skill rather than gambling? Besides, if im in a tourney and I beat one guy with all in, I guarantee that strat will be moot against the rest of the people I play against. 3. Intuition/Spider Sense: I really don't know how to explain this other than to say that after playing a certain number of games, every player has a bit of a subconscious read for the all in play. It may be how your opponent scouts, or simply......something... that lets a player know that something is up. I believe it's called Map Awareness when people talk about Flash. At any rate, you will occasionally see pro players go all in against eachother relying on the other player not expecting the move. However, this is a rarity amongst players.
No. If one of them had mass marine rushed, I'm confident the other would have held it off and won the game easily from there.
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On September 18 2010 01:19 eskarel wrote:
For Terran, siege tanks shut it right down, and any bio ball would do reasonably well.
For Zerg, banelings will slaughter it, and roaches will do reasonably well.
For Protoss, zealot will hold their own with no real problems.
4rax marines > zealots im fairly certain
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On September 18 2010 05:37 ploy wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2010 03:16 bobcat wrote:On September 18 2010 01:19 eskarel wrote:
Why should they be scared? Mass Marine isn't really all that terrifying, I'm still in bronze and even I don't find it all that scary. It's immensely powerful against air, but if you're rushing air you'll wall in or at least build some static defenses.
For Terran, siege tanks shut it right down, and any bio ball would do reasonably well.
For Zerg, banelings will slaughter it, and roaches will do reasonably well.
For Protoss, zealot will hold their own with no real problems.
Marines are only really scary because they provide incredibly air support for units which can't shoot up(essentially negating that weakness in both marauders and tanks, and enhancing the AA of thors).
You simply cannot mass enough marines for them to become an overwhelming force on their own before the other races can start building units which counter them.
Neither of those players were acting like they were rushing air(no wall in, no static d, no odd shortage of rax units, and any build they could have come up with that didn't involve rushing air would have been steam rolled by mass marines, so why would they build them?
Sure a mass marine build could have won against an MM build, or another mass marine build, or a hellion build, or they might have caught their opponent building nothing more than a show army either to rush to air or because their brain had suddenly dipped down into bronze league for the night, but unless you dramatically out skill your opponent or hit an incredibly unlikely scenario(rush to air with no static defenses, or a diamond player playing like bronze), your odds are at best 50/50, and probably significantly worse since your opponent has to wipe out stragglers if you happen to pull through with a couple of units left, and if you lose that bet, you're gone.
You don't get to be a diamond league player by playing coin flip builds, cheese and all ins certainly happen, but generally when then have a better than even chance of succeeding.
In the lower leagues stuff like that works because your opponents lack of skill increases the odds, 6 pool shouldn't really be a threat to anyone, but it works more often than not in bronze. Baneling busts are trivial to defend against, but people in bronze and silver don't. People in platinum on the other hand do, and a 50/50 win ratio won't get you promoted out of a league.
Hehehehe..... Siege tanks beat mass marines - obvious Banelings beat mass marines - situational zealots beat mass marines - not without proper terrain or a few friends to assist. I'm not taking a big "mass marines is OP" stance so you can relax about that. Marines aren't scary because of their anti air capacity, they are scary because they are a cheap glass cannon that the terran player can produce quickly. And baneling busts aren't trivial to defend against if you opponent knows how to do them right. Other than that, your argument is mostly correct. All in builds like mass marine are a double edged sword. If either player had chosen to go that route, there is a good chance that they would have won the game. However, if they had gotten scouted by their opponent, it would have been a huge disdvantage early game. The reasons most diamond players dont do all in plays are as follows. 1. As the name implies, it is a risky tactic that has the chance of giving your opponent an easy win. 2. Most players (even the really good ones) have a comfort zone that they operate in. What I mean by this is that it is second nature for most players to do their standard opening, they have done it 1000 times, they know exactly how to use it and exactly how it reacts to each build. When the player converts to an all in strategy, there are more grey areas for them to deal with. How do i measure the effectiveness of this tactic? When should I shift gears? How do I react to X, Y, and Z? Even for a pro player, it takes time to adapt to a knew build. Yes the player could practice the build and use it in their ladder games, but then they become an all in player, and all in players don't last very long in at upper ratings. As a result, it is reasonable to assume that your opponent is not going to pull an all in attack especially at such a high level due to the fact that they are much more comfortable with their less cheesy opener that has won them most of their games thus far. To use an example, consider a toss player opening 10gate zealot rush. I play P, and in a fair number of my PvP matchups, I push into my opponents base thinking "man I could have killed this guy with an early rush" but I still don't open 10gate in my next PvP game. The reason is that my opponent could scout it at the wrong time and im dead, or my opponent goes 2 gate robo and im dead, or I mess up my timing by 8 seconds and a sentry locks one of my zeals out....and im dead. If none of these things happens, yes I will get a quick win with little satisfaction, but why risk it when I can win with my own skill rather than gambling? Besides, if im in a tourney and I beat one guy with all in, I guarantee that strat will be moot against the rest of the people I play against. 3. Intuition/Spider Sense: I really don't know how to explain this other than to say that after playing a certain number of games, every player has a bit of a subconscious read for the all in play. It may be how your opponent scouts, or simply......something... that lets a player know that something is up. I believe it's called Map Awareness when people talk about Flash. At any rate, you will occasionally see pro players go all in against eachother relying on the other player not expecting the move. However, this is a rarity amongst players. No. If one of them had mass marine rushed, I'm confident the other would have held it off and won the game easily from there.
I said there was a good chance Mass marines would have won them the game, not a guarantee. I'm certain that either of them defending against a mass marine push from another player would have survived, but against a pro with that much of a macro advantage there is a very good chance a player of equal skill will not be able to pull of a win.
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On September 18 2010 03:16 bobcat wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2010 01:19 eskarel wrote:
Why should they be scared? Mass Marine isn't really all that terrifying, I'm still in bronze and even I don't find it all that scary. It's immensely powerful against air, but if you're rushing air you'll wall in or at least build some static defenses.
For Terran, siege tanks shut it right down, and any bio ball would do reasonably well.
For Zerg, banelings will slaughter it, and roaches will do reasonably well.
For Protoss, zealot will hold their own with no real problems.
Marines are only really scary because they provide incredibly air support for units which can't shoot up(essentially negating that weakness in both marauders and tanks, and enhancing the AA of thors).
You simply cannot mass enough marines for them to become an overwhelming force on their own before the other races can start building units which counter them.
Neither of those players were acting like they were rushing air(no wall in, no static d, no odd shortage of rax units, and any build they could have come up with that didn't involve rushing air would have been steam rolled by mass marines, so why would they build them?
Sure a mass marine build could have won against an MM build, or another mass marine build, or a hellion build, or they might have caught their opponent building nothing more than a show army either to rush to air or because their brain had suddenly dipped down into bronze league for the night, but unless you dramatically out skill your opponent or hit an incredibly unlikely scenario(rush to air with no static defenses, or a diamond player playing like bronze), your odds are at best 50/50, and probably significantly worse since your opponent has to wipe out stragglers if you happen to pull through with a couple of units left, and if you lose that bet, you're gone.
You don't get to be a diamond league player by playing coin flip builds, cheese and all ins certainly happen, but generally when then have a better than even chance of succeeding.
In the lower leagues stuff like that works because your opponents lack of skill increases the odds, 6 pool shouldn't really be a threat to anyone, but it works more often than not in bronze. Baneling busts are trivial to defend against, but people in bronze and silver don't. People in platinum on the other hand do, and a 50/50 win ratio won't get you promoted out of a league.
Hehehehe..... Siege tanks beat mass marines - obvious Banelings beat mass marines - situational zealots beat mass marines - not without proper terrain or a few friends to assist. I'm not taking a big "mass marines is OP" stance so you can relax about that. Marines aren't scary because of their anti air capacity, they are scary because they are a cheap glass cannon that the terran player can produce quickly. And baneling busts aren't trivial to defend against if you opponent knows how to do them right. Other than that, your argument is mostly correct. All in builds like mass marine are a double edged sword. If either player had chosen to go that route, there is a good chance that they would have won the game. However, if they had gotten scouted by their opponent, it would have been a huge disdvantage early game. The reasons most diamond players dont do all in plays are as follows. 1. As the name implies, it is a risky tactic that has the chance of giving your opponent an easy win. 2. Most players (even the really good ones) have a comfort zone that they operate in. What I mean by this is that it is second nature for most players to do their standard opening, they have done it 1000 times, they know exactly how to use it and exactly how it reacts to each build. When the player converts to an all in strategy, there are more grey areas for them to deal with. How do i measure the effectiveness of this tactic? When should I shift gears? How do I react to X, Y, and Z? Even for a pro player, it takes time to adapt to a knew build. Yes the player could practice the build and use it in their ladder games, but then they become an all in player, and all in players don't last very long in at upper ratings. As a result, it is reasonable to assume that your opponent is not going to pull an all in attack especially at such a high level due to the fact that they are much more comfortable with their less cheesy opener that has won them most of their games thus far. To use an example, consider a toss player opening 10gate zealot rush. I play P, and in a fair number of my PvP matchups, I push into my opponents base thinking "man I could have killed this guy with an early rush" but I still don't open 10gate in my next PvP game. The reason is that my opponent could scout it at the wrong time and im dead, or my opponent goes 2 gate robo and im dead, or I mess up my timing by 8 seconds and a sentry locks one of my zeals out....and im dead. If none of these things happens, yes I will get a quick win with little satisfaction, but why risk it when I can win with my own skill rather than gambling? Besides, if im in a tourney and I beat one guy with all in, I guarantee that strat will be moot against the rest of the people I play against. 3. Intuition/Spider Sense: I really don't know how to explain this other than to say that after playing a certain number of games, every player has a bit of a subconscious read for the all in play. It may be how your opponent scouts, or simply......something... that lets a player know that something is up. I believe it's called Map Awareness when people talk about Flash. At any rate, you will occasionally see pro players go all in against eachother relying on the other player not expecting the move. However, this is a rarity amongst players.
couldnt have said it better..
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I think the big problem with all-in marine rush in that particular game is that there are a ton of builds you just auto-lose to. If he's making siege expand, 1 rax FE, or bancheese you're going to get rolled since the rush distance is so very long.
Top level players don't like to make plays where they just lose if their opponent does something normal and reasonable.
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On September 18 2010 07:32 Agenda42 wrote:
I think the big problem with all-in marine rush in that particular game is that there are a ton of builds you just auto-lose to. If he's making siege expand, 1 rax FE, or bancheese you're going to get rolled since the rush distance is so very long.
Top level players don't like to make plays where they just lose if their opponent does something normal and reasonable.
I think 99% of the people posting here so far don't relize marine rushes are designed to come before seige mode is done.
Edit: do ppl just not micro their marines against zealots these days... Why is everyone saying mass marines lose to zealots. Im not sure that marines are autowin, but with good enough micro a nice group of well control marines can cost effectively rape zealots.
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Actually I'm more concerned about reapers. In most high-level TvTs, the Terrans always open with marine, factory, starport. If their opponent went proxy/fast reapers, that would crush the marines pretty badly.
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Why do people assume top-ranked US Terrans know what they are doing?
Let's see how they do after 1.1 patch and Mule nerf.
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EPT
