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[D] PvZ - 2 Warpgate Forge FE

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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Tergeron
Profile Joined February 2010
United States66 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-09-15 20:05:10
September 14 2010 22:28 GMT
#1
I'm pretty surprised that this thread hasn't been made yet given GSL has been running for a while now. It seems like every PvZ series has showcased this build at least once. While it seems most Korean Protoss know of this build there are no TL threads or Liquipedia articles concerning it that I can find. Is this build unknown to the foreign community? If this build is somewhere already please post it for the sake of discussion so that we can see the specifics of the build that I might of missed while experimenting and attempting to replicate the patterns I've seen.

The concept of this build is pretty simple, expand as fast as possible once Warpgate is complete using 1 Zealot and 3+ Sentries to secure your ramp while a pylon/cannon is building. From there you can create 2 Gateways(usually in Simcity) to reinforce your army and pick a tech path. Also, because of the way this build works you can grab +1 Ground Attack and/or Hallucination. The time you start building your Nexus will usually be at 6~ minutes game time, beaten only by the ForgeFE you might do on more specific maps. This build is capable of working on maps with open expansions such as Xel'naga Caverns, Metalopolis and Delta Quadrant. Because you grab your natural so fast poking the Zerg and teching are both easy to do therefore Zerg can't run rampant with Drone production on 2 base and must risk taking a third to get a huge lead in economy again.


The build opening follows the http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/1_Gate_Core or any slight variation of it (13 Gate, Cybernetics before Zealot). As a note, this build is also fairly similar to how you might do a 4 Warpgate rush, so before you commit to it there is a possibility of changing your build if you think 4 Warpgate might be more desirable.

The build order is as follows:

9 Pylon
Chrono Nexus
12 Gate
Chrono Nexus(Save energy now)
14 Gas
15 Pylon
16 Zealot
19 Core (As a rule, you must have 50 energy once the Core completes so you can chain 3 Chronos on research in a row)
22 Gas
22 Gateway
23 Sentry
25 Pylon
27 Forge
27 Sentry, 29 Sentry from other Gateway
32 Pylon

By this point the crucial components of expanding are all place, soon you'll have your 3 Sentries, Warpgate is done and depending on the map you can pylon on the cliff and cannon on the ground without having to build a pylon at your ramp. It's best to try and skip building an additional pylon so if you need to build a pylon at your ramp to cannon the natural then move out slightly regardless of your Sentry count. If you think you can get away without building a cannon then even better but remember that the cannon is the most important part of defending your natural, do so at your own risk. You also decide at this point if you want +1 Attack or Hallucination.

Once you've moved down to your natural the build becomes much less rigid and you can build it to adapt to anything you might expect. Cut probes and production to get your Nexus up asap if you feel comfortable doing so. It's important to get your next two gateways up for simcity and production, if you sense pressure then warp in 2 Stalkers before you drop the two gateways, regardless though you will want 2 Stalkers as your next units. Once you have your Nexus and 4 Warpgates up you will be able to defend any sort of pressure as long as you don't go afk. Pick what tech path you want from here depending on what you might of scouted.

If you happen to be attacked, it is crucial to use Forcefield to keep units away from the cannon / Sentries, if you have simcity up and you do it correctly you will not have any problems with Roaches and Zerglings will do minimal damage in any scenario.

Here are some examples of Simcity placement:
[image loading]
[image loading]
[image loading]


Unfortunately I've yet to compile any replays to showcase the build, however as I said nearly every PvZ GSL game has had this build or the idea showcased. If you want to see it in action, check some GSL VODS. I'll do my best to get some replays up as soon as possible. Also, if you happen to know the BO that might be the originator for this build please feel free to post it here.


Replays:


Ftrunkz:
[image loading]

[image loading]
“Before you embark on a journey of revenge, dig two graves.” -Confucius
PatouPower
Profile Joined September 2010
Canada1119 Posts
September 14 2010 22:37 GMT
#2
Yea, I've also seen it in most high-level games recently, not just in tournaments, and it seems to be a pretty solid strategy (particularly after the zealot nerf).

But my primary concern is 6 pool or any early rush: how do you deal with it? You can't scout it in time, and since you won't have your ramp blocked with 2 buildings and 1 zealot, I don't think you would be able to hold off the push and your workers would be too far away to get on attack move, thus leaving plenty of time to the zerg to destroy your advanced building and getting a strong economy.

This is actually the only thing that keeps me away from this build
Quasi.In.Rem
Profile Joined September 2010
53 Posts
September 14 2010 23:30 GMT
#3
Very interesting build. I've actually been trying out a lot of Gateway+Forge stuff simply because Cannons are pretty underrated. But I had been trying it out in the reverse though. Stalkers first then Sentries and cutting the 2nd gas to get more minerals on Probes. Sentries are probably much better defensively though.
proxY_
Profile Joined July 2010
United States1561 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-09-14 23:35:52
September 14 2010 23:32 GMT
#4
Most zergs aren't going to 6 pool, especially on a four player map like metal but an early pool really hurts if it does happen. The easiest way to stop a 6 pool is to do a full wall off and stall for zealots to come out and if you do this strat it really isn't viable to close yourself off in time, the lings will get in, focus down the pylon and then proceed to decimate your mineral line before you can get anything
out.

Here is an IEM qualifier game where Machine takes out Huk

http://glhf.blip.tv/file/4083578/

I'm not sure what Huk could've done after he made his first pylon on that outer ramp (watch that game btw the commentary is really loller as in terrible).

One option is to do the standard build at your ramp play and when you verify that your opponent isn't 6 pooling you can drop the forge and start walling your expansion, it still will work. Another counter to this build that I've seen idrA do is go directly to hydras and rush the range upgrade. If you do that the hydras can outrange the cannons behind the wall off and they can effectively kill all the structures at the wall off before enough ranged colossus can be out to stop them.

Now there is a variation of this strat that you didn't mention is something that I've seen Tester do a few times and I've had some success with where you pylon cannon block your zerg opponent's ramp. This is crucial because it effectively kills the zerg's ability to match your boom and forces them into some kind of one base play with a really delayed expansion. Barring some kind of nydus rush (which is easily scoutable) or one base muta which again are pretty counterable, I'm really not sure how the zerg can get back into the game at that point.

In the same vein as that, you can make early zealots to shut down any kind of fast expand and lock the zerg into his base until he gets roaches out. I actually prefer the cannon block because it forces the zerg to waste res making banelings or spine crawlers or something that they normally probably wouldn't normally build while the roaches are always going to be useful. You can maybe kill a queen or some drones with the zealots though so that's the trade off.
Quasi.In.Rem
Profile Joined September 2010
53 Posts
September 15 2010 00:19 GMT
#5
Hydra's don't outrange cannons.
Sprouter
Profile Joined December 2009
United States1724 Posts
September 15 2010 00:37 GMT
#6
On September 15 2010 08:30 Quasi.In.Rem wrote:
Very interesting build. I've actually been trying out a lot of Gateway+Forge stuff simply because Cannons are pretty underrated. But I had been trying it out in the reverse though. Stalkers first then Sentries and cutting the 2nd gas to get more minerals on Probes. Sentries are probably much better defensively though.
you need sentries to block ling run bys
proxY_
Profile Joined July 2010
United States1561 Posts
September 15 2010 00:38 GMT
#7
On September 15 2010 09:19 Quasi.In.Rem wrote:
Hydra's don't outrange cannons.


They kill the wall-off buildings (typically gateways and pylons with a possible forge) and the cannons that are sitting behind those structures can't hit them.
tsukipoo
Profile Joined September 2010
Australia1 Post
Last Edited: 2010-09-15 02:16:33
September 15 2010 02:14 GMT
#8
how does this compare to the more standard 2gate forge first FE? This FE seems a little slower and possibly weaker in terms of being aggressive to keep zerg from FE'ing themselves via early zealots, though the trade off is your tech is a lot higher
=^_^=
Quasi.In.Rem
Profile Joined September 2010
53 Posts
September 15 2010 02:16 GMT
#9
@Sprouter. You can still just block it with a Zealot plus Core+Gateway. Not saying that's the best idea, but that was the idea.

@proxY_ Would you really need the range upgrade for that? Anyways, I guess I don't really see the issue with that. It takes awhile to get to tier 2, and you could just put some more Cannons in front of them and build some units. You don't have to go Colossus.
monx
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Canada1400 Posts
September 15 2010 03:08 GMT
#10
On September 15 2010 11:14 tsukipoo wrote:
how does this compare to the more standard 2gate forge first FE? This FE seems a little slower and possibly weaker in terms of being aggressive to keep zerg from FE'ing themselves via early zealots, though the trade off is your tech is a lot higher


whats the standard one ?

@ggmonx
Dfgj
Profile Joined May 2008
Singapore5922 Posts
September 15 2010 03:10 GMT
#11
I've been trying this, I find the 2gates in main + forge first are a lot more resilient to early Z aggression. I've been getting my nexus down before core though, relying on zealots/cannons to hold, then catching up with chronod warpgate and 2 more gates.

PatouPower
Profile Joined September 2010
Canada1119 Posts
September 15 2010 03:34 GMT
#12
On September 15 2010 08:32 proxY_ wrote:
One option is to do the standard build at your ramp play and when you verify that your opponent isn't 6 pooling you can drop the forge and start walling your expansion, it still will work. Another counter to this build that I've seen idrA do is go directly to hydras and rush the range upgrade. If you do that the hydras can outrange the cannons behind the wall off and they can effectively kill all the structures at the wall off before enough ranged colossus can be out to stop them.


Well, would it be possible to, build your pylon inside your base, at the corner of your ramp, as close as possible to your expand, then send a probe to scout at 9 and being able to see if he lings rush? (in a 1v1 map). If he 6 pools, then you build your 2 gateways inside your base, but if he doesn't, you could build them outside with enough pylon power to build both. Plus, the pylon its kind of protected to any kind of harass since it's higher ground.

I think I've seen a player in the tournament do this in xel'naga caverns (or maybe it was a day[9] cast). I would need to test if I'm able to scout the zerg in time, tho. And like you said, in 4 players maps, no players is foolish enough to 6 pool blindly and hope to find the enemy at his first attempt.
Tergeron
Profile Joined February 2010
United States66 Posts
September 15 2010 05:57 GMT
#13
On September 15 2010 12:34 PatouPower wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 15 2010 08:32 proxY_ wrote:
One option is to do the standard build at your ramp play and when you verify that your opponent isn't 6 pooling you can drop the forge and start walling your expansion, it still will work. Another counter to this build that I've seen idrA do is go directly to hydras and rush the range upgrade. If you do that the hydras can outrange the cannons behind the wall off and they can effectively kill all the structures at the wall off before enough ranged colossus can be out to stop them.


Well, would it be possible to, build your pylon inside your base, at the corner of your ramp, as close as possible to your expand, then send a probe to scout at 9 and being able to see if he lings rush? (in a 1v1 map). If he 6 pools, then you build your 2 gateways inside your base, but if he doesn't, you could build them outside with enough pylon power to build both. Plus, the pylon its kind of protected to any kind of harass since it's higher ground.

I think I've seen a player in the tournament do this in xel'naga caverns (or maybe it was a day[9] cast). I would need to test if I'm able to scout the zerg in time, tho. And like you said, in 4 players maps, no players is foolish enough to 6 pool blindly and hope to find the enemy at his first attempt.


The timing for that would be tight, usually by the time your probe reaches the enemy base you would have already dropped at least one gateway, if you delay too long you might lose just because your zealot wont be out fast enough. I really only think 2 Gate FE works on maps like LT and Blistering Sands because of how easy it is to wall off at your natural. Forge FE and 2 Gate FE will both probably get their expo out way faster then this build but it comes at a much bigger risk, and is nearly impossible to pull off on maps with open expos. Also, remember that this build incorporates +1 into the build and the timing allows you to have the upgrade ready the second your 4 Warpgates are functional, this means you can do some pretty cost effective damage and force larva production into units instead of drones.
“Before you embark on a journey of revenge, dig two graves.” -Confucius
GoDannY
Profile Joined August 2006
Germany442 Posts
September 15 2010 06:04 GMT
#14
I think it is a good idea to get the 1st zealot out before actually placing the core, I tend to fall back into the habit of getting my core asap and then getting a zealot before my 2nd gas is thrown. With the upcoming zealot nerf it might be considerable to do it that way, in combination with a wall-off to defend against early ling pressure (9-pool and below).
Team LifeStyle - it's more than a game
Selfy
Profile Joined August 2010
Germany1 Post
September 15 2010 06:13 GMT
#15
Hey Tergeron!

Thank you for presenting this strategy... never heard about it. Could you maybe also attach a replay?
Ftrunkz
Profile Blog Joined April 2007
Australia2474 Posts
September 15 2010 06:33 GMT
#16
On September 15 2010 15:13 Selfy wrote:
Hey Tergeron!

Thank you for presenting this strategy... never heard about it. Could you maybe also attach a replay?

I've been experimenting a bit with this build today, im not a great player but i faced a fair bit of early ling aggression in most games i played and held it off with pretty much no problems, ill upload the replays in a sec.
@NvPinder on twitter | Member of Gamecom Nv | http://www.clan-ta.com | http://www.youtube.com/user/ftrunkz | http://www.twitchtv.com/xghpinder
Tergeron
Profile Joined February 2010
United States66 Posts
September 15 2010 06:46 GMT
#17
On September 15 2010 15:33 Ftrunkz wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 15 2010 15:13 Selfy wrote:
Hey Tergeron!

Thank you for presenting this strategy... never heard about it. Could you maybe also attach a replay?

I've been experimenting a bit with this build today, im not a great player but i faced a fair bit of early ling aggression in most games i played and held it off with pretty much no problems, ill upload the replays in a sec.


I'm starting to collect some replays of this build in action, once I have enough I'll post them. Also, please feel free to post some replays, I'll compile them together and put it in the main post for new readers.
“Before you embark on a journey of revenge, dig two graves.” -Confucius
Ftrunkz
Profile Blog Joined April 2007
Australia2474 Posts
September 15 2010 07:02 GMT
#18
rep 1: http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/80926-1v1-protoss-zerg-xelnaga-caverns
rep 2: http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/80927-1v1-protoss-zerg-xelnaga-caverns

i chose these 2 cos they're on xel'naga where the nat is incredibly ridiculously wide open, so its a good example of just how safe this build is against an opponent who tries to pressure u with lings after seeing it.

I followed it straight with robo, with the advantage being obs early for scouting and early collosi incase he does rush hydra, but putting down 1 or 2 more gates and being more aggressive on the map with stalkers w/ blink like we saw in the gsl might be a much better way to go, I'm still pretty undecided.

fwiw, games are about 1.1k diamond rating on US and SEA server respectively.
@NvPinder on twitter | Member of Gamecom Nv | http://www.clan-ta.com | http://www.youtube.com/user/ftrunkz | http://www.twitchtv.com/xghpinder
kcdc
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States2311 Posts
September 15 2010 12:16 GMT
#19
Thanks for posting this. I hadn't seen this expansion BO, but it sounds really good. The only problem is that the expansion isn't really THAT early, so Z can have a small econ lead, but I like that it's very safe and that it gives you an option for a +1 4-gate attack in the early game that should prevent Z from taking a third for quite a while.
kcdc
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States2311 Posts
September 15 2010 14:13 GMT
#20
On second thought:

You're getting second gateway on 22 and you're only using it to build a single sentry before you expand. You then mention possibly cutting production to get the nexus and the 3rd and 4th gateways down ASAP. Is the second gateway really necessary? By constantly producing and either saving up more chronoboost or spending less on warpgate research, you could keep your single gateway chronoboosted and at least match the unit count you're getting out of this double gateway build.

I really like the idea of defending the natural with a cannon+sentries tho.
MrBitter
Profile Joined January 2008
United States2940 Posts
September 15 2010 14:18 GMT
#21
As a Z player, I've been complaining about Toss FE for a while now.

Any time Toss can get his nat up in line with, or in some cases before the Zerg player, the game becomes a real struggle for the Zerg player.

The Protoss mid-game army is just so powerful. Zerg really needs Hive tech to deal with it, and even then, its far from being an easy battle to win.
Markwerf
Profile Joined March 2010
Netherlands3728 Posts
September 15 2010 14:21 GMT
#22
I was just about to write a guide about this or a very similar build I do against zerg. Because it does differ a bit and I had just done making some wall-in pictures etc I will put it in another thread though. Don't want to put in all here in a reply basically.

Ftrunkz
Profile Blog Joined April 2007
Australia2474 Posts
September 15 2010 14:26 GMT
#23
On September 15 2010 23:13 kcdc wrote:
On second thought:

You're getting second gateway on 22 and you're only using it to build a single sentry before you expand. You then mention possibly cutting production to get the nexus and the 3rd and 4th gateways down ASAP. Is the second gateway really necessary? By constantly producing and either saving up more chronoboost or spending less on warpgate research, you could keep your single gateway chronoboosted and at least match the unit count you're getting out of this double gateway build.

I really like the idea of defending the natural with a cannon+sentries tho.


hhhmmm, i think its a fallback. As in, if he has sneaky gone early roaches (eg that 5 roach rush that's been kicking around), he can contain you to your base, and you have to sit on your base for a long time before you have the unit count to bust out.

If you don't have that extra gate, you're going to be stuck on 1-base for a lot longer and it will take a while to build up enough army to pressure him and take your nat, whereas if you have the 2 gates, you can very quickly get enough stalkers and using the sentries you can slowly creep out quite easily to take your nat quickly, and be in once again an advantageous position.

@NvPinder on twitter | Member of Gamecom Nv | http://www.clan-ta.com | http://www.youtube.com/user/ftrunkz | http://www.twitchtv.com/xghpinder
kcdc
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States2311 Posts
September 15 2010 15:00 GMT
#24
On September 15 2010 23:26 Ftrunkz wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 15 2010 23:13 kcdc wrote:
On second thought:

You're getting second gateway on 22 and you're only using it to build a single sentry before you expand. You then mention possibly cutting production to get the nexus and the 3rd and 4th gateways down ASAP. Is the second gateway really necessary? By constantly producing and either saving up more chronoboost or spending less on warpgate research, you could keep your single gateway chronoboosted and at least match the unit count you're getting out of this double gateway build.

I really like the idea of defending the natural with a cannon+sentries tho.


hhhmmm, i think its a fallback. As in, if he has sneaky gone early roaches (eg that 5 roach rush that's been kicking around), he can contain you to your base, and you have to sit on your base for a long time before you have the unit count to bust out.

If you don't have that extra gate, you're going to be stuck on 1-base for a lot longer and it will take a while to build up enough army to pressure him and take your nat, whereas if you have the 2 gates, you can very quickly get enough stalkers and using the sentries you can slowly creep out quite easily to take your nat quickly, and be in once again an advantageous position.



Against an all-in from Z (whether by roaches, zerglings or banelings), I think you just want to stay in your main and FF the ramp to weather the storm. With good awareness and FF micro, I think you could survive without the second gateway at 22. (Upon realizing Z is going all-in, you'd obviously want to add extra gates ASAP) Against a Z build that heavily focuses on economy, I think you'll be better off with only one gateway before expanding because it will give you a better economy. Against pressure from Z that less than all-in, I'm not sure how a single gateway would compare to two. From the sound of your description, it's potentially safe to cut unit production quite a bit while getting your nexus and additional gateways, so it sounds like a single gateway into expansion could be safe against non-all-in pressure. We'll have to try it out.

To summarize, I'm thinking:
If Z goes economy/little to no pressure => 1-gate expand is better
If Z goes for an all-in attack => either 1-gate or 2-gate will win with good micro and building placement
If Z goes moderate economy/moderate pressure => ?????
Ftrunkz
Profile Blog Joined April 2007
Australia2474 Posts
September 15 2010 15:38 GMT
#25
yeah i agree, im not coming out to say you're wrong or anything, im more discussing the options because im sure theres a reason we've only see 1 protoss 1 warpgate FE (against idra, a renowned macro-oriented player) compared to all the others who have 2 gate forge first FE'd.

Also i dont think you cut much production of sentry from the 2 gates while adding the other gates, since you're just spending up the excess gas, the 2nd gate isn't quite there just for the purpose of looking pretty, and if the z is going for a few speedlings (by no means all-in, see the 2 reps i posted for examples of this), the last thing you want is to run out of ff at some point ;o
@NvPinder on twitter | Member of Gamecom Nv | http://www.clan-ta.com | http://www.youtube.com/user/ftrunkz | http://www.twitchtv.com/xghpinder
kcdc
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States2311 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-09-15 15:53:44
September 15 2010 15:52 GMT
#26
Agreed. I'll play around with the 1-gate + cannon expansion today (if I face any Z's....which I won't, because 1300+ is all Terran). I've used 1-gate expansions without the cannon against Zerg and it's almost safe. The trouble is that you can't kill speedlings quickly enough to punish harass. Zealots don't hit them and sentries and stalkers don't have enough DPS in small numbers. A single cannon would solve that problem as well as making early upgrades available. Whether using 1 or 2 gates, this seems like a really strong opening.
Markwerf
Profile Joined March 2010
Netherlands3728 Posts
September 15 2010 16:23 GMT
#27
I'm usually playing 1 gate expands as well against zerg. You don't always need a cannon if the zerg didn't open aggresively and you can always go with a little delayed forge/cannon if needed.
More details here:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=153142

The advantage of delaying your forge is that if you do scout a mass macro zerg you can go more macro yourself as well.
wxwx
Profile Joined May 2010
527 Posts
September 15 2010 17:31 GMT
#28
how'd you find the BO's of the GSL players? All I see is VODs and it's pretty difficult to determine stuff like timings.. how many chrono boosts to do on warp gate etc etc.
agarfin
Profile Joined May 2009
United States106 Posts
September 15 2010 17:41 GMT
#29
Ive tried forge fast expanding and it works great but i much prefer a 4 gate expansion. Not only does it let you be extremely aggressive early game and stop drone production many times you can win outright.
GSL INFO+ Show Spoiler +
I really liked lotzeprimes play against idra in the ro32. Although idra was able to hold it off i feel like a lot of lesser zerg pros would have lost to the first attacks.
kzn
Profile Blog Joined June 2007
United States1218 Posts
September 15 2010 18:31 GMT
#30
On September 16 2010 00:52 kcdc wrote:
Agreed. I'll play around with the 1-gate + cannon expansion today (if I face any Z's....which I won't, because 1300+ is all Terran). I've used 1-gate expansions without the cannon against Zerg and it's almost safe. The trouble is that you can't kill speedlings quickly enough to punish harass. Zealots don't hit them and sentries and stalkers don't have enough DPS in small numbers. A single cannon would solve that problem as well as making early upgrades available. Whether using 1 or 2 gates, this seems like a really strong opening.


One point about having only 1 gate is it might appear less like a 4gate all-in (and would indeed be harder to transition into a 4gate all-in if you saw something that required it). I think a lot of the strength of the build relative to, say, 2gate pressure or forge FE is that zergs have to account for the possibility that you're actually 4gating, not expanding, and that is expensive to do.
Like a G6
Tergeron
Profile Joined February 2010
United States66 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-09-15 19:48:25
September 15 2010 19:36 GMT
#31
On September 15 2010 23:13 kcdc wrote:
On second thought:

You're getting second gateway on 22 and you're only using it to build a single sentry before you expand. You then mention possibly cutting production to get the nexus and the 3rd and 4th gateways down ASAP. Is the second gateway really necessary? By constantly producing and either saving up more chronoboost or spending less on warpgate research, you could keep your single gateway chronoboosted and at least match the unit count you're getting out of this double gateway build.

I really like the idea of defending the natural with a cannon+sentries tho.


I imagine the second gateway is there for early pressure and to break possible contains. A faster Warpgate would allow for quicker production later on. It's very possible though that the build I've seen has Chronos on the single gateway because I've seen them push out of their base with 5 sentries early on. It's worth experimenting with to see what might be better either way.

“Before you embark on a journey of revenge, dig two graves.” -Confucius
Tergeron
Profile Joined February 2010
United States66 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-09-15 19:45:12
September 15 2010 19:38 GMT
#32
On September 15 2010 23:21 Markwerf wrote:
I was just about to write a guide about this or a very similar build I do against zerg. Because it does differ a bit and I had just done making some wall-in pictures etc I will put it in another thread though. Don't want to put in all here in a reply basically.



If you don't mind, could I link to your thread so people can find the other build order? The concept is the same but obviously different.

On September 16 2010 02:31 wxwx wrote:
how'd you find the BO's of the GSL players? All I see is VODs and it's pretty difficult to determine stuff like timings.. how many chrono boosts to do on warp gate etc etc.


I did a lot of experimenting and going through a lot of iterations, it's very possible that my BO is not even similar to what we see in GSL. That's why I've asked in my post if anyone knew the BO so they could post it for us.
“Before you embark on a journey of revenge, dig two graves.” -Confucius
Kikuichimonji
Profile Joined June 2010
United States102 Posts
September 15 2010 19:45 GMT
#33
Considering how effective early pressure is on a zerg that FE's and how much of an advantage you can get if both players 1 base I don't understand why you would want to FE. I'd rather deal with zerg 1 base vs 1 base than both players on 2 bases.
kzn
Profile Blog Joined June 2007
United States1218 Posts
September 15 2010 20:30 GMT
#34
Its a matter of playstyle. I detest 1base play, and eventually people will figure out how to consistently deal with 2gate pressure (or other pressure) in a way that puts the P way behind if he does it. Fast expand builds are the future of SC2.
Like a G6
Nakmal
Profile Joined August 2010
United States24 Posts
September 15 2010 20:57 GMT
#35
Can we stop calling builds that have expansions built into them FE? This is not a FE...

Expanding at 33 or wherever is not a fast expansion at all.
brokengloves
Profile Joined September 2010
6 Posts
September 15 2010 23:02 GMT
#36
I've been losing to this too. The toss pressures with 2 gate then expands into 6 warpgates. The 2 gate pressure lowers drone count, while the toss can expand with a forge. As soon as the expansion hits, they go 6 gate and it's over for most Zerg players that are just starting to get their hydra count up.
kcdc
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States2311 Posts
September 16 2010 00:58 GMT
#37
On September 16 2010 05:57 Nakmal wrote:
Can we stop calling builds that have expansions built into them FE? This is not a FE...

Expanding at 33 or wherever is not a fast expansion at all.


33 is pretty fast....That's like 4 minutes (real time) into the game. I'd break expansions into two groups:

(1) prepare a timing attack and expand as you set out, and
(2) expand as early as you think you can defend and play defensively.

I think anything that falls into the second category could be called a fast expansion. A forge fast expand can happen in the teens, but anything involving a gateway will have to wait till the 30's to be safe. Fortunately, an expansion at 30 finishes just when you're beginning to saturate your main, so it's very econ-friendly.
wxwx
Profile Joined May 2010
527 Posts
September 16 2010 03:03 GMT
#38
On September 16 2010 04:45 Kikuichimonji wrote:
Considering how effective early pressure is on a zerg that FE's and how much of an advantage you can get if both players 1 base I don't understand why you would want to FE. I'd rather deal with zerg 1 base vs 1 base than both players on 2 bases.


I think the skill cap for defense is much higher than offense, Z will figure out a way that gives them a good chance to expand in the midst of aggression. Perhaps this is why you never see Protoss 1-basing in the GSL.
DeusVult
Profile Joined September 2010
Australia3 Posts
September 16 2010 04:22 GMT
#39
This sounds good, will definitely try it out. A little worried about the early ling pressure, but every BO will have a weakness I guess.
KotaOnCue
Profile Joined September 2010
United States180 Posts
September 16 2010 04:34 GMT
#40
In a tester game against a zerg, what he did to prevent a fast expand by his opponent, he just put down a sacrificial pylon where the hatchery would be placed, preventing him from putting down FE before him and that way, getting a jump start against the zerg. He also shows off some sentry skill against a busted baneling bust.
http://sc2casts.com/cast772-TesteR-vs-PAGE-1-Game-No-Event-Korean-Starcraft-Match
"They say ignorance is bliss. Is it true?"
coltrane
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
Chile988 Posts
September 16 2010 04:40 GMT
#41
I have been playing around with this since the GSL started, I thought on making some thread about it, but I was banned in the forums this last week. Gonna provide some reps tomorrow. Good catch with the 50 energy to chrono boost the core, and with the decision about +1 ground or hallu, those both things costed me more than a few games this last week, I was doing both ups and/or not boosting the wg upgrade many times, I will try that tomorrow.
Jävla skit
techh
Profile Joined June 2010
Iceland82 Posts
September 18 2010 21:10 GMT
#42
What do you do if the zerg goes muta ling? once he has like 15ish muta's.. afew cannons wont stop him harassing the mineral line,

Also notice no cannons at the main in the Firezerg replay, i feel like this stratt is really vulnerable to muta ling.
Markwerf
Profile Joined March 2010
Netherlands3728 Posts
September 18 2010 21:26 GMT
#43
On September 16 2010 04:38 Tergeron wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 15 2010 23:21 Markwerf wrote:
I was just about to write a guide about this or a very similar build I do against zerg. Because it does differ a bit and I had just done making some wall-in pictures etc I will put it in another thread though. Don't want to put in all here in a reply basically.



If you don't mind, could I link to your thread so people can find the other build order? The concept is the same but obviously different.

Show nested quote +
On September 16 2010 02:31 wxwx wrote:
how'd you find the BO's of the GSL players? All I see is VODs and it's pretty difficult to determine stuff like timings.. how many chrono boosts to do on warp gate etc etc.


I did a lot of experimenting and going through a lot of iterations, it's very possible that my BO is not even similar to what we see in GSL. That's why I've asked in my post if anyone knew the BO so they could post it for us.


Ye it would be nice if you linked in your post. The basic idea's are quite the same in the build orders (sentries to expand relatively fast) but yet different enough to warrant their own threads I think.


Miraqle
Profile Joined July 2010
United States20 Posts
September 19 2010 22:06 GMT
#44
On September 19 2010 06:10 techh wrote:
What do you do if the zerg goes muta ling? once he has like 15ish muta's.. afew cannons wont stop him harassing the mineral line,

Also notice no cannons at the main in the Firezerg replay, i feel like this stratt is really vulnerable to muta ling.


This build can move into a very aggressive mid game quite quickly before zerg can get any kind of threatening muta/ling army out. Once your nat is saturated and you are running off 4+ gates you can pretty much drop a proxy pylon and constantly pressure with a +1 army and do enough damage to win the game right there. I can't imagine a zerg player playing standard and getting a big enough muta force to overwhelm any toss army. Also, your tech is totally open and you can go to 4 gas far earlier than most builds which means you can free tech to blink while still pumping gas units.
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