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On September 15 2010 05:12 InfestedSC2 wrote:
I love it when people reply before even reading my post. You guys replied within 30 seconds (first 2), so you obviously didn't read it. Are you guys top 200 terran players in NA? I am. If you are, I stand corrected.
Go back and read my post please.
There are EASILY 2-3 proxy locations to scout on most maps. You are suggesting that EVERY single TvT someone plays they should pull an early SCV off and go scout all of the common proxy locations? If you do that and your opponent goes for a standard build, you are slowing your scout & putting yourself at a disadvantage.
ALSO, what about proxy locations inside your plateau? You can't "bunker your ramp" if they do that can you?
ALSO iEchoic, how do you plan on bunkering your ramp when their marine & SCV are at your ramp already before your barracks is even close to done?
go back n read their's they know what they are talking about. IF you scout or see it late, pull some scvs + your marines, and it's up to your micro. Make sure you don't pull so many scvs that you put yourself behind, as that's what your opponent wants you to do. So be very, very intelligent and meticulous on the minimum number of scvs you need to use to stop the rush with ur marines.
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The double rax cheese is sooo hard to deal with. Not impossible thou.
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i get lots of free wins from terrans when who do barracks cheese, hell iechoic tried some all in marine cheese ealier today and got stomped, i find that it helps to cut an scv and make ur barracks immediately after after ur supply depo finishes unless the proxy is immediately outside ur base like behind the bushes on xelnaga caverns, (u should always scout there btw) then his first marine wont get to ur base fast enough all u have to do is pull off a few scvs til ur bunker finishes then punish him with a reaper to his undefended base
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I'm no where near on your level, but I find 1 marine + a few scvs and a reaper stops proxy marines if you bunker in a nice spot and build contained. Then if you get them out of your base and a bunker on your hill with 2 - 3 reapers will stop every marine.
I can't scout all proxy spots because I don't know where they are, so I lose 25% of cheese games.
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Holy shit, now even the Terran players are whining that Terrans op. WTF
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On September 15 2010 07:27 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2010 06:01 blagoonga123 wrote:On September 15 2010 05:57 Dente wrote:
Easy to stop. One bunker and you are safe. not true. Played a tvt, got proxy marine'd, set up bunker, killed his first bunker and a few marines, he set up a bunker outside of the range of my bunker and in range of my CC and had more marines than me because he had more barracks than me, i lost because my barracks was absolutely useless and it was impossible to set up a new barracks. Why'd you let him build a bunker next to your cc?
Quoting for emphasis...letting the second bunker go up is why you lost. It's not unfair, you were outplayed.
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Why is this a TvT issue and not a Tv issue? Just curious.
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lol @ how op hasn't responded after being shut down by iEchoic
There is no such thing as unbeatable cheese, if there were everyone would do it 100% of the time
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i don't think it's impossible, but I cannot believe how much I get cheesed in TvT lately. It seems nobody wants to play out a real game, they're just trying to win or lose in the first five minutes. I don't even remember the last straight up game of TvT I played, but it was a while ago.
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Scout on 9 on two player maps. You barely lose any mining time and you can see if they are going proxy rax or what not if they dont have a depo in their base. In 4 player maps, they are basicaly gambling cause they need to scout you out as well to get that bunker in your base. If you just want to play standard, just scout on your 9th scv and adapt from there. For example, you see that he has no depot. Cut your scvs and put up another barracks. Once you stop the cheese, you basically win the game.
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What's the problem with being a little bit behind because of an early scout? I'm sure you and your opponent don't have perfect macro to take advantage of that little advantage. If you scout when your depot at 9 or 10 and he doesn't scout till after rax, it doesn't make a huge difference. At some point, I'm sure both of you will have excess or be supply blocked or forget to constantly make workers, or someone will use a scan instead of a mule
I would trade economic disadvantage for not dying anyday
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Top200 terran here, for what it's worth.
Agreed with OP. The proxy rax is unbeatable if you don't find it very early (and you most likely won't if you are playing semi-standard).
Blizzard is aware of this problem and might address it.*
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send an early scout to their base, if there's no barracks there start a bunker at home. if they send their first marine up ur ramp u can kill it with scvs with minimal losses (regardless if he has 2 of his own scvs backing him up). if they try leapfrogging bunkers... well they need vision of your ramp to shoot up it, and since you have your own bunker they can't just rush you, so essentially you're at a stalemate. from that point tech to tanks, banshees, dropships, etc. and punish him for his smaller economy.
edit: oh and I reread OP's post, apparantly he thinks the marines come before scouting, but that's not true. a normal scout should get there a little bit before his barracks finishes, and again he'll have to accumalate a few marines before he's ready to charge up your ramp (otherwise scvs kill them), so you should actually have lots of time to react.
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On September 15 2010 09:58 RadicalEdwrd wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2010 07:27 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On September 15 2010 06:01 blagoonga123 wrote:On September 15 2010 05:57 Dente wrote:
Easy to stop. One bunker and you are safe. not true. Played a tvt, got proxy marine'd, set up bunker, killed his first bunker and a few marines, he set up a bunker outside of the range of my bunker and in range of my CC and had more marines than me because he had more barracks than me, i lost because my barracks was absolutely useless and it was impossible to set up a new barracks. Why'd you let him build a bunker next to your cc? Quoting for emphasis...letting the second bunker go up is why you lost. It's not unfair, you were outplayed.
quoting because you guys can't read "had more marines than me"
even if you manage to kill off the bunker he will still be able to outproduce you since he most likely also killed some of your scvs and evened the worker count.
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On September 15 2010 12:48 blagoonga123 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2010 09:58 RadicalEdwrd wrote:On September 15 2010 07:27 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On September 15 2010 06:01 blagoonga123 wrote:On September 15 2010 05:57 Dente wrote:
Easy to stop. One bunker and you are safe. not true. Played a tvt, got proxy marine'd, set up bunker, killed his first bunker and a few marines, he set up a bunker outside of the range of my bunker and in range of my CC and had more marines than me because he had more barracks than me, i lost because my barracks was absolutely useless and it was impossible to set up a new barracks. Why'd you let him build a bunker next to your cc? Quoting for emphasis...letting the second bunker go up is why you lost. It's not unfair, you were outplayed. quoting because you guys can't read " had more marines than me" even if you manage to kill off the bunker he will still be able to outproduce you since he most likely also killed some of your scvs and evened the worker count.
And that's why you put your bunker at your choke...
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On September 15 2010 05:09 Lunares wrote:
You should never have to waste 5-6 seconds splitting your scv off.
Also a 12 rax can hold off a 9 rax double proxy if you are careful with your rax placement, depot placement, and use a few scv's to help your marines. a well placed bunker will also help.
Stop complaining and learn how to play better, it's cheese and yes you have to learn how to deal with it but it really isn't that hard to fend off if you control well.
If you know how to fight it off, maybe teaching us, who are so called bad players instead of saying stuff that makes no sense. If it's so easy to stop, we shouldn't see someone proxy barrack twice in a row in a big tournament.
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On September 15 2010 14:46 KuFingreen wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2010 05:09 Lunares wrote:
You should never have to waste 5-6 seconds splitting your scv off.
Also a 12 rax can hold off a 9 rax double proxy if you are careful with your rax placement, depot placement, and use a few scv's to help your marines. a well placed bunker will also help.
Stop complaining and learn how to play better, it's cheese and yes you have to learn how to deal with it but it really isn't that hard to fend off if you control well. If you know how to fight it off, maybe teaching us, who are so called bad players instead of saying stuff that makes no sense. If it's so easy to stop, we shouldn't see someone proxy barrack twice in a row in a big tournament.
Uh yeah... except that was a TvP, not a TvT.
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On September 15 2010 05:12 InfestedSC2 wrote:
There are EASILY 2-3 proxy locations to scout on most maps. You are suggesting that EVERY single TvT someone plays they should pull an early SCV off and go scout all of the common proxy locations?
Yes.
Not too long ago, I was reading the battle report for the Lost Saga MSL, Stork v JangBi. I would just like to quote from that battle report:
KwarK wrote:
Stork warped in at 11 while JangBi took 5. Both mirrored perfectly, opening 8p, 10g -> scout and then checking the far side of their nat for proxy 99s and checking their main on about 12 psi.
Seriously guys, check. It slows your scout probe for a total of one second to go slightly further in the nat and it's about 5 seconds mining time to check your main. Stop losing to proxy 99s and realise you don't actually have to, you just have to remember to play safe.
The point is, losing to proxies is silly considering that the extra 10-20 seconds it takes to scout an additional location will secure you a free win. While you certainly get later scouting info (or none at all), you simply can't afford to lose to something like a proxy when all you need to do is scout in another location.
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According to this thread I can 2 proxy my way to 1100 Diamond.
brb
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EPT
