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So, I'm entirely sick of losing to stupid proxy barracks in TvT. And this doesn't just happen at lower levels; a 1500 diamond player just did it to me today.
Why am I sick of it? There's no way to scout it early enough to stop it. If you do a conservative build that can potentially stop it, you will lose to an aggressive tech build. Allow me to explain:
The rush
This proxy barracks rush occurs when the terran sends out one of their very first SCVs to your base (or near your base). They then start a proxy barracks at around 9 supply. They ALSO send a second SCV a slight bit later (usually arrives at your base just as your barracks is starting) to harass your barracks building SCV. This forces you (usually) to switch off SCVs building the barracks, slowing it by 5-6 seconds. The second SCV then immediately retreats and builds a 2nd proxy barracks, which starts just after your FIRST barracks.
This strategy also works on 4 player maps if they send one of their first SCVs to a corner position & then build the 2 prroxy barracks in between the other 2 start locations. Also, do not forget that they have 2 SCVs to fight with their marines.
**Most good players who do this also build a first bunker immediately after their 1st barracks (out of your vision) and then a second bunker near your CC. This way you CANNOT use SCVs to kill the marines, as they simply micro back to the bunkers. Once their bunker is done, you lose.**
The Problem
The problem here is that if you go for a standard 10 supply depot build, you are basically screwed. On most maps there are 2-3 proxy locations to build the barracks and scouting all of them is out of the question.
Also, for those who might say "scout more", how would you scout this in time? If you send your SCV building the supply depot out to scout (early by most standards), you STILL don't arrive at their base until the first marine & bunker of theirs is already in your base. So... great! You see no barracks no gas in their base and realize they are going for a proxy, but it's just in time to watch your base die because their bunker is already up!!!
Thus simply "scouting" early is out of the option (unless the map is steppes of war; I will admit that steppes of war you can scout this. But not on any other maps).
The "better build" argument
Some people may try to refute my claim by saying that you just need to get your barracks up earlier. It's true that I have stopped this rush with an 11 barracks. However, going for an 11 barracks is simply UNACCEPTABLE.
Why is it unacceptable? Because if your opponent goes for 12 gas 13 rax (economical tech build), you will auto lose. With your 11 barracks, it is JUST slow enough that you cannot rush them. Because of their early gas, they will actually get their starport out QUICKER than you will. You will also be heavily strapped for minerals, while they very easily get their factory, orbital, marines, and hellions.
By the time any serious engagement happens, they will have more units than you. In TvT 11 rax vs 12 gas/13 rax will easily get a 100 mineral advantage. This advantage is enough to win a game between evenly skilled players, because the advantage snowballs.
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Scout inside your base then.
If you catch the proxy barracks, you are in a huge advantage, you can kill the SCV, he loses his barracks, and has to start over.
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It's not impossible to stop at all. You just need to send your first scout to common proxy locations (including inside your base), pull SCVs to fight it off, and bunker your ramp (or bunker their raxes if inside your base).
Marines aren't good against scvs in small numbers. Put 2 scvs on a marine and it's shut down. Get a bunker up and win.
I scout all proxy locations every single game.
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You should never have to waste 5-6 seconds splitting your scv off.
Also a 12 rax can hold off a 9 rax double proxy if you are careful with your rax placement, depot placement, and use a few scv's to help your marines. a well placed bunker will also help.
Stop complaining and learn how to play better, it's cheese and yes you have to learn how to deal with it but it really isn't that hard to fend off if you control well.
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I'm well over 1k Diamond and all I can say is. No it's not out of the question to scout all the proxy locations, it's just something you have to spare an SCV to do. Remember if you catch it unless that horrendous bug/feature were the SCV manages to hide inside the damn barracks so you can't attack it. You've pretty much scored a free win. I usually send my first scout by one of the proxy locations and then my second guy to the others.
It's something that you either have to learn to do or just take the cheese loss. I scout really early It's just something that I've gotten used to doing after being cheesed so much, you might say "AMG you can't do that, it sucks and you will autolose" it might give you a slight disadvantage if he plays standard but it still beats the alternative and I've never watched a replay and gone "I played this perfectly if only I hadn't scouted early".
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I love it when people reply before even reading my post. You guys replied within 30 seconds (first 2), so you obviously didn't read it. Are you guys top 200 terran players in NA? I am. If you are, I stand corrected.
Go back and read my post please.
There are EASILY 2-3 proxy locations to scout on most maps. You are suggesting that EVERY single TvT someone plays they should pull an early SCV off and go scout all of the common proxy locations? If you do that and your opponent goes for a standard build, you are slowing your scout & putting yourself at a disadvantage.
ALSO, what about proxy locations inside your plateau? You can't "bunker your ramp" if they do that can you?
ALSO iEchoic, how do you plan on bunkering your ramp when their marine & SCV are at your ramp already before your barracks is even close to done?
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On September 15 2010 05:12 InfestedSC2 wrote:. Are you guys top 200 terran players in NA? I am. If you are, I stand corrected.
There are EASILY 2-3 proxy locations to scout on most maps. You are suggesting that EVERY single TvT someone plays they should pull an early SCV off and go scout all of the common proxy locations? If you do that and your opponent goes for a standard build, you are slowing your scout & putting yourself at a disadvantage.
You can't "bunker your ramp" if they do that can you?
ALSO iEchoic, how do you plan on bunkering your ramp when their marine & SCV are at your ramp already before your barracks is even close to done?
Well I am a top 200 player, not that it matters anyway, so you do stand corrected.
Yes, every single TvT on single player maps, my first scout (after supply depot) scouts all proxy locations and then goes to their base. Every single TvT.
And yes, to fight them off your ramp, you pull scvs, like I said. Do you think a marine and an SCV can fight off 4 scvs?
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You can pull a lot of SCV's just to block your ramp, get a bunker down and wahlah you are ahead. I'm a 1.5k diamond T and proxy raxes are stupid and easy to stop.
The more annoying thing about the matchup is the fact that the units are rock-paper-scissors.
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Scouting does not just involve scouting your opponent's base. You should send your SCV to scout around the possible proxy locations. If you catch him while his first Rax is still building, you should be able to defend against it with minimal problems.
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If such a simple strat was unstoppable we would see it a lot more in tournaments and such.
Edit: And with bunker buildtime nerf this strat will also be weaker.
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On September 15 2010 05:12 InfestedSC2 wrote:
I love it when people reply before even reading my post. You guys replied within 30 seconds (first 2), so you obviously didn't read it. Are you guys top 200 terran players in NA? I am. If you are, I stand corrected.
Go back and read my post please.
I read your post, and all I got out of it was you were bitching because you got proxy'd.
Send your SCV in a route around the fog of war in your base before you scout him, its not hard to stop.
Yeah, they can proxy in other locations, so check those out too, worst case scenario you wasted 10-30 seconds.
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You could
A. Proxy rax yourself - if it's unbeatable than you shall get tons of free wins against all these people playing standard. More likely is you find out the best ways to beat it.
B. Play completely standard every game anyway! Now you can get free wins off of all the other terrans worried about cheese.
C. Take the advice you asked for and find a practice partner to work it out. You can sit here and shoot down all the advice citing your rank, or you can go figure it out yourself using other peoples' posts as a guide.
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Do you want to discuss this or is this just a rant? I'll help you out with some basics of asking and getting help with issues.
- Don't put yourself out there as being the one with the definite answer(especially not if you are a random guy at the forum with 10 posts)
- Don't demand that players have achieved equally or more in the game in comparison to yourself before they may share their opinions, especially not when the discussion is about a build order ANYONE could do and understand.
Now to your problem;
From what I know from 2v2 (were you very often have two workers from two players harassing your barrack) you can't take it off building. you have to bring one to repair and one to attack their workers. Usually I manage fending of two workers harassing me and one doing so is would not make me lose 5-6 seconds in build time. Btw walling of is of course a factor working against you in this regard
Imo not getting your barrack delayed is something you can work on
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I think i just found a new build.
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use your scv as meat shield... build a bunker... gg you won,
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
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Standard builds needing to account for the possibility of cheese is nothing new, this was a common problem in BW.
There's no question that 12 gas 13 rax isn't safe against cheese, but that's the risk you take when playing such a risky build. I think that you can defend this with a 12 rax build as long as you are on the ball about looking for buildings in your base.
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iEchoic is right. It can go back to bw, whenever you are getting bunker rushed just pull a few workers and intercept the marine. Bunkers arnt useful with nothing in them obv. Also the risk of econ builds is cheese, thats the risk you take for the investment. Cheese is designed to kill those econ builds.
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is this seriously a topic?
this is honestly the exact same as bw, wtf. pull scvs, make a bunker, get marine out. its not the easiest thing in the world but it is so many miles away from impossible. also, yes, with your scout you should check proxy spots along the way because its a freewin if you find anything and a 20 second slower scout isnt that big a difference. this ESPECIALLY goes if they put them down in your main, you should always check the edges of your base with a worker too, those proxies should be even easier to stop because you should scout them fast.
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First off, build your barracks next to your cc in TvT. Your not going to wall off anyway. Scout common proxy locations after your first rax goes down or after supply depot if you're really worried about it. If they have no buildings then drop a bunker next to your mineral line/ramp. Also how is going 11 rax auto lose? Seriously if you lose a game i doubt it will be because of going 11 rax.
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EPT
