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So, I'm entirely sick of losing to stupid proxy barracks in TvT. And this doesn't just happen at lower levels; a 1500 diamond player just did it to me today.
Why am I sick of it? There's no way to scout it early enough to stop it. If you do a conservative build that can potentially stop it, you will lose to an aggressive tech build. Allow me to explain:
The rush
This proxy barracks rush occurs when the terran sends out one of their very first SCVs to your base (or near your base). They then start a proxy barracks at around 9 supply. They ALSO send a second SCV a slight bit later (usually arrives at your base just as your barracks is starting) to harass your barracks building SCV. This forces you (usually) to switch off SCVs building the barracks, slowing it by 5-6 seconds. The second SCV then immediately retreats and builds a 2nd proxy barracks, which starts just after your FIRST barracks.
This strategy also works on 4 player maps if they send one of their first SCVs to a corner position & then build the 2 prroxy barracks in between the other 2 start locations. Also, do not forget that they have 2 SCVs to fight with their marines.
**Most good players who do this also build a first bunker immediately after their 1st barracks (out of your vision) and then a second bunker near your CC. This way you CANNOT use SCVs to kill the marines, as they simply micro back to the bunkers. Once their bunker is done, you lose.**
The Problem
The problem here is that if you go for a standard 10 supply depot build, you are basically screwed. On most maps there are 2-3 proxy locations to build the barracks and scouting all of them is out of the question.
Also, for those who might say "scout more", how would you scout this in time? If you send your SCV building the supply depot out to scout (early by most standards), you STILL don't arrive at their base until the first marine & bunker of theirs is already in your base. So... great! You see no barracks no gas in their base and realize they are going for a proxy, but it's just in time to watch your base die because their bunker is already up!!!
Thus simply "scouting" early is out of the option (unless the map is steppes of war; I will admit that steppes of war you can scout this. But not on any other maps).
The "better build" argument
Some people may try to refute my claim by saying that you just need to get your barracks up earlier. It's true that I have stopped this rush with an 11 barracks. However, going for an 11 barracks is simply UNACCEPTABLE.
Why is it unacceptable? Because if your opponent goes for 12 gas 13 rax (economical tech build), you will auto lose. With your 11 barracks, it is JUST slow enough that you cannot rush them. Because of their early gas, they will actually get their starport out QUICKER than you will. You will also be heavily strapped for minerals, while they very easily get their factory, orbital, marines, and hellions.
By the time any serious engagement happens, they will have more units than you. In TvT 11 rax vs 12 gas/13 rax will easily get a 100 mineral advantage. This advantage is enough to win a game between evenly skilled players, because the advantage snowballs.
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Scout inside your base then.
If you catch the proxy barracks, you are in a huge advantage, you can kill the SCV, he loses his barracks, and has to start over.
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It's not impossible to stop at all. You just need to send your first scout to common proxy locations (including inside your base), pull SCVs to fight it off, and bunker your ramp (or bunker their raxes if inside your base).
Marines aren't good against scvs in small numbers. Put 2 scvs on a marine and it's shut down. Get a bunker up and win.
I scout all proxy locations every single game.
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You should never have to waste 5-6 seconds splitting your scv off.
Also a 12 rax can hold off a 9 rax double proxy if you are careful with your rax placement, depot placement, and use a few scv's to help your marines. a well placed bunker will also help.
Stop complaining and learn how to play better, it's cheese and yes you have to learn how to deal with it but it really isn't that hard to fend off if you control well.
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I'm well over 1k Diamond and all I can say is. No it's not out of the question to scout all the proxy locations, it's just something you have to spare an SCV to do. Remember if you catch it unless that horrendous bug/feature were the SCV manages to hide inside the damn barracks so you can't attack it. You've pretty much scored a free win. I usually send my first scout by one of the proxy locations and then my second guy to the others.
It's something that you either have to learn to do or just take the cheese loss. I scout really early It's just something that I've gotten used to doing after being cheesed so much, you might say "AMG you can't do that, it sucks and you will autolose" it might give you a slight disadvantage if he plays standard but it still beats the alternative and I've never watched a replay and gone "I played this perfectly if only I hadn't scouted early".
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I love it when people reply before even reading my post. You guys replied within 30 seconds (first 2), so you obviously didn't read it. Are you guys top 200 terran players in NA? I am. If you are, I stand corrected.
Go back and read my post please.
There are EASILY 2-3 proxy locations to scout on most maps. You are suggesting that EVERY single TvT someone plays they should pull an early SCV off and go scout all of the common proxy locations? If you do that and your opponent goes for a standard build, you are slowing your scout & putting yourself at a disadvantage.
ALSO, what about proxy locations inside your plateau? You can't "bunker your ramp" if they do that can you?
ALSO iEchoic, how do you plan on bunkering your ramp when their marine & SCV are at your ramp already before your barracks is even close to done?
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On September 15 2010 05:12 InfestedSC2 wrote:. Are you guys top 200 terran players in NA? I am. If you are, I stand corrected.
There are EASILY 2-3 proxy locations to scout on most maps. You are suggesting that EVERY single TvT someone plays they should pull an early SCV off and go scout all of the common proxy locations? If you do that and your opponent goes for a standard build, you are slowing your scout & putting yourself at a disadvantage.
You can't "bunker your ramp" if they do that can you?
ALSO iEchoic, how do you plan on bunkering your ramp when their marine & SCV are at your ramp already before your barracks is even close to done?
Well I am a top 200 player, not that it matters anyway, so you do stand corrected.
Yes, every single TvT on single player maps, my first scout (after supply depot) scouts all proxy locations and then goes to their base. Every single TvT.
And yes, to fight them off your ramp, you pull scvs, like I said. Do you think a marine and an SCV can fight off 4 scvs?
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You can pull a lot of SCV's just to block your ramp, get a bunker down and wahlah you are ahead. I'm a 1.5k diamond T and proxy raxes are stupid and easy to stop.
The more annoying thing about the matchup is the fact that the units are rock-paper-scissors.
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Scouting does not just involve scouting your opponent's base. You should send your SCV to scout around the possible proxy locations. If you catch him while his first Rax is still building, you should be able to defend against it with minimal problems.
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If such a simple strat was unstoppable we would see it a lot more in tournaments and such.
Edit: And with bunker buildtime nerf this strat will also be weaker.
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On September 15 2010 05:12 InfestedSC2 wrote:
I love it when people reply before even reading my post. You guys replied within 30 seconds (first 2), so you obviously didn't read it. Are you guys top 200 terran players in NA? I am. If you are, I stand corrected.
Go back and read my post please.
I read your post, and all I got out of it was you were bitching because you got proxy'd.
Send your SCV in a route around the fog of war in your base before you scout him, its not hard to stop.
Yeah, they can proxy in other locations, so check those out too, worst case scenario you wasted 10-30 seconds.
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You could
A. Proxy rax yourself - if it's unbeatable than you shall get tons of free wins against all these people playing standard. More likely is you find out the best ways to beat it.
B. Play completely standard every game anyway! Now you can get free wins off of all the other terrans worried about cheese.
C. Take the advice you asked for and find a practice partner to work it out. You can sit here and shoot down all the advice citing your rank, or you can go figure it out yourself using other peoples' posts as a guide.
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Do you want to discuss this or is this just a rant? I'll help you out with some basics of asking and getting help with issues.
- Don't put yourself out there as being the one with the definite answer(especially not if you are a random guy at the forum with 10 posts)
- Don't demand that players have achieved equally or more in the game in comparison to yourself before they may share their opinions, especially not when the discussion is about a build order ANYONE could do and understand.
Now to your problem;
From what I know from 2v2 (were you very often have two workers from two players harassing your barrack) you can't take it off building. you have to bring one to repair and one to attack their workers. Usually I manage fending of two workers harassing me and one doing so is would not make me lose 5-6 seconds in build time. Btw walling of is of course a factor working against you in this regard
Imo not getting your barrack delayed is something you can work on
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I think i just found a new build.
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use your scv as meat shield... build a bunker... gg you won,
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
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Standard builds needing to account for the possibility of cheese is nothing new, this was a common problem in BW.
There's no question that 12 gas 13 rax isn't safe against cheese, but that's the risk you take when playing such a risky build. I think that you can defend this with a 12 rax build as long as you are on the ball about looking for buildings in your base.
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iEchoic is right. It can go back to bw, whenever you are getting bunker rushed just pull a few workers and intercept the marine. Bunkers arnt useful with nothing in them obv. Also the risk of econ builds is cheese, thats the risk you take for the investment. Cheese is designed to kill those econ builds.
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is this seriously a topic?
this is honestly the exact same as bw, wtf. pull scvs, make a bunker, get marine out. its not the easiest thing in the world but it is so many miles away from impossible. also, yes, with your scout you should check proxy spots along the way because its a freewin if you find anything and a 20 second slower scout isnt that big a difference. this ESPECIALLY goes if they put them down in your main, you should always check the edges of your base with a worker too, those proxies should be even easier to stop because you should scout them fast.
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First off, build your barracks next to your cc in TvT. Your not going to wall off anyway. Scout common proxy locations after your first rax goes down or after supply depot if you're really worried about it. If they have no buildings then drop a bunker next to your mineral line/ramp. Also how is going 11 rax auto lose? Seriously if you lose a game i doubt it will be because of going 11 rax.
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Of course you can scout earlier. I 9 drone scout as Zerg all the time, including ZvZ. It's bullshit to say you can't.
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On September 15 2010 05:29 R0YAL wrote: It can go back to bw, whenever you are getting bunker rushed just pull a few workers and intercept the marine. Bunkers arnt useful with nothing in them obv. builds.
Yep
Just make sure you don't let the marine get in the bunker
It's okay if the bunker finishes as long as no marines get in them
Reminds me of my ZvT days in BW where proxy BBS kept owning me
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scouting early is not "unacceptable," it's a necessity. until you get that through your head you aren't going to stop losing.
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Terran's OP. Toss and Zerg players switch to Terrran. Toss players like to Proxy. Terran now likes to proxy. The answer. Nerf Marauders.
![[image loading]](http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_YHubNjdqtIE/TCqmjE6Ga6I/AAAAAAAAIXg/u0E-eaIfR6M/s1600/jeff+goldblum+jurassic+park.jpg)
User was warned for this post
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On September 15 2010 05:36 blitzkrieger wrote:
Terran's OP. Toss and Zerg players switch to Terrran. Toss players like to Proxy. Terran now likes to proxy. The answer. Nerf Marauders.
[/img]
This isn't 4chan. Please don't post unrelated pictures.
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On September 15 2010 05:35 fallore wrote:
scouting early is not "unacceptable," it's a necessity. until you get that through your head you aren't going to stop losing.
Yes, it's either have a hard time against cheese or get slightly behind players who scout late and don't cheese. Note that those players will have a hard time by cheese by default so in the end everything works out well.
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On September 15 2010 05:35 frogmelter wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2010 05:29 R0YAL wrote: It can go back to bw, whenever you are getting bunker rushed just pull a few workers and intercept the marine. Bunkers arnt useful with nothing in them obv. builds. Yep Just make sure you don't let the marine get in the bunker It's okay if the bunker finishes as long as no marines get in them Reminds me of my ZvT days in BW where proxy BBS kept owning me
Unfortunatley it's infinitely harder to kill marines with workers, drones or scvs or probes, in SC2 than SC1. Not moving attack, you get in the way of the marine and your probes to a swinging slide for some reason, and no ranged attack either. I've had like 5 drones try to stop a marine once and fail to get a single hit.
All mirrors are like this, not just TvT. Toss can go proxy warpgates, if unscouted you lose. Zerg has it completley in the shitter because of when you cut drones, which is why BW ZvZ was considered the "build order matchup." "4/5 pool < 9 pool < 12 pool < 12 hatch < 4/5 pool." There were more variations of course, such as 9pool speed which beat 12 hatch but 9pool w/o speed doesn't beat it (which is why it's never done).
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i wouldnt think that someone who just proxy raxed you would be worrying about the mid/late game. I always figured proxying is sort of an all in. so i dont really get the economic advantage he would have esp if you kill the proxy.
also if they proxy in your base and get it off successfully you didnt scout with the scv you used to place your first SD down. If you did, then you would notice that the rax is still building and you could kill the drone making it. if the proxy is outside of his base then use the scv that built the SD to scout his base. if there is no rax in it, then start making a bunker to finish your wall after your rax is done. one marine in a bunker could kill a handful of marines.
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On September 15 2010 05:36 blitzkrieger wrote:Terran's OP. Toss and Zerg players switch to Terrran. Toss players like to Proxy. Terran now likes to proxy. The answer. Nerf Marauders.
Quite hilarious.
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Honestly, its better to scout earlier and make up for it later in the game than to never make it to later in the game.
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On September 15 2010 05:44 Sanguinarius wrote:
Honestly, its better to scout earlier and make up for it later in the game than to never make it to later in the game.
^^ well put
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Actually if you open 10rax, you will have a faster orbital and you will be only 1 SCV down. You'll have a faster 2nd refinery, although you would have a slightly slower factory. You won't be down in mineral count because of a faster mule. I've tested it myself.
I'm starting to see alot of people open with 10rax in high diamond TvT. I think stalife opens 10rax in TvT as well. Trust me, you aren't as economically behind as you think you'd be opening with a 10rax->10depot.
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Easy to stop. One bunker and you are safe.
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On September 15 2010 05:57 Dente wrote:
Easy to stop. One bunker and you are safe.
not true. Played a tvt, got proxy marine'd, set up bunker, killed his first bunker and a few marines, he set up a bunker outside of the range of my bunker and in range of my CC and had more marines than me because he had more barracks than me, i lost because my barracks was absolutely useless and it was impossible to set up a new barracks.
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Bring up a few SCV to help your 1st marine and build a bunker near your choke, once the bunker gets down they are in trouble.
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Im not the best player but I really think that 8 rax reaper is even stronger then this. You´ll scout it too late most off the time and the reaper enters your base about the time your first marine pops. Also workers are pretty useless in fighting off reapers. They just snipe the rines and then kill your workers...
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If this proxy strategy is sooo good why dont you keep doing it and see how other terran players counter it.
This way you get free wins basically until someone shows you how to beat it
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Bad scouting is underpowered in ALL matchups. It's not just a TvT thing. My opinion is to boost bad scouting's power by about 50-100% to make all possible builds your opponent can do manageable without having to improve your own playing to adapt.
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If the issue is them building a proxy barracks in your base then make sure you follow that super early SCV scout and kill him before they finish the barracks. If they're proxying outside your base your scout should figure that out as soon as you see their base and you can wall off real quick like. If you do a strong macro build from there you can push out, kill their barracks and:
1. If they were teching they don't have any guys to defend your counter.
2. If they were committing to this proxy pressure then they... dont have those buildings anymore, and don't have any guys to defend your counter.
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On September 15 2010 06:01 blagoonga123 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2010 05:57 Dente wrote:
Easy to stop. One bunker and you are safe. not true. Played a tvt, got proxy marine'd, set up bunker, killed his first bunker and a few marines, he set up a bunker outside of the range of my bunker and in range of my CC and had more marines than me because he had more barracks than me, i lost because my barracks was absolutely useless and it was impossible to set up a new barracks.
Why'd you let him build a bunker next to your cc?
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On September 15 2010 05:12 InfestedSC2 wrote:
I love it when people reply before even reading my post. You guys replied within 30 seconds (first 2), so you obviously didn't read it. Are you guys top 200 terran players in NA? I am. If you are, I stand corrected.
Go back and read my post please.
There are EASILY 2-3 proxy locations to scout on most maps. You are suggesting that EVERY single TvT someone plays they should pull an early SCV off and go scout all of the common proxy locations? If you do that and your opponent goes for a standard build, you are slowing your scout & putting yourself at a disadvantage.
ALSO, what about proxy locations inside your plateau? You can't "bunker your ramp" if they do that can you?
ALSO iEchoic, how do you plan on bunkering your ramp when their marine & SCV are at your ramp already before your barracks is even close to done?
go back n read their's they know what they are talking about. IF you scout or see it late, pull some scvs + your marines, and it's up to your micro. Make sure you don't pull so many scvs that you put yourself behind, as that's what your opponent wants you to do. So be very, very intelligent and meticulous on the minimum number of scvs you need to use to stop the rush with ur marines.
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The double rax cheese is sooo hard to deal with. Not impossible thou.
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i get lots of free wins from terrans when who do barracks cheese, hell iechoic tried some all in marine cheese ealier today and got stomped, i find that it helps to cut an scv and make ur barracks immediately after after ur supply depo finishes unless the proxy is immediately outside ur base like behind the bushes on xelnaga caverns, (u should always scout there btw) then his first marine wont get to ur base fast enough all u have to do is pull off a few scvs til ur bunker finishes then punish him with a reaper to his undefended base
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I'm no where near on your level, but I find 1 marine + a few scvs and a reaper stops proxy marines if you bunker in a nice spot and build contained. Then if you get them out of your base and a bunker on your hill with 2 - 3 reapers will stop every marine.
I can't scout all proxy spots because I don't know where they are, so I lose 25% of cheese games.
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Holy shit, now even the Terran players are whining that Terrans op. WTF
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On September 15 2010 07:27 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2010 06:01 blagoonga123 wrote:On September 15 2010 05:57 Dente wrote:
Easy to stop. One bunker and you are safe. not true. Played a tvt, got proxy marine'd, set up bunker, killed his first bunker and a few marines, he set up a bunker outside of the range of my bunker and in range of my CC and had more marines than me because he had more barracks than me, i lost because my barracks was absolutely useless and it was impossible to set up a new barracks. Why'd you let him build a bunker next to your cc?
Quoting for emphasis...letting the second bunker go up is why you lost. It's not unfair, you were outplayed.
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Why is this a TvT issue and not a Tv issue? Just curious.
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lol @ how op hasn't responded after being shut down by iEchoic
There is no such thing as unbeatable cheese, if there were everyone would do it 100% of the time
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i don't think it's impossible, but I cannot believe how much I get cheesed in TvT lately. It seems nobody wants to play out a real game, they're just trying to win or lose in the first five minutes. I don't even remember the last straight up game of TvT I played, but it was a while ago.
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Scout on 9 on two player maps. You barely lose any mining time and you can see if they are going proxy rax or what not if they dont have a depo in their base. In 4 player maps, they are basicaly gambling cause they need to scout you out as well to get that bunker in your base. If you just want to play standard, just scout on your 9th scv and adapt from there. For example, you see that he has no depot. Cut your scvs and put up another barracks. Once you stop the cheese, you basically win the game.
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What's the problem with being a little bit behind because of an early scout? I'm sure you and your opponent don't have perfect macro to take advantage of that little advantage. If you scout when your depot at 9 or 10 and he doesn't scout till after rax, it doesn't make a huge difference. At some point, I'm sure both of you will have excess or be supply blocked or forget to constantly make workers, or someone will use a scan instead of a mule
I would trade economic disadvantage for not dying anyday
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Top200 terran here, for what it's worth.
Agreed with OP. The proxy rax is unbeatable if you don't find it very early (and you most likely won't if you are playing semi-standard).
Blizzard is aware of this problem and might address it.*
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send an early scout to their base, if there's no barracks there start a bunker at home. if they send their first marine up ur ramp u can kill it with scvs with minimal losses (regardless if he has 2 of his own scvs backing him up). if they try leapfrogging bunkers... well they need vision of your ramp to shoot up it, and since you have your own bunker they can't just rush you, so essentially you're at a stalemate. from that point tech to tanks, banshees, dropships, etc. and punish him for his smaller economy.
edit: oh and I reread OP's post, apparantly he thinks the marines come before scouting, but that's not true. a normal scout should get there a little bit before his barracks finishes, and again he'll have to accumalate a few marines before he's ready to charge up your ramp (otherwise scvs kill them), so you should actually have lots of time to react.
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On September 15 2010 09:58 RadicalEdwrd wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2010 07:27 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On September 15 2010 06:01 blagoonga123 wrote:On September 15 2010 05:57 Dente wrote:
Easy to stop. One bunker and you are safe. not true. Played a tvt, got proxy marine'd, set up bunker, killed his first bunker and a few marines, he set up a bunker outside of the range of my bunker and in range of my CC and had more marines than me because he had more barracks than me, i lost because my barracks was absolutely useless and it was impossible to set up a new barracks. Why'd you let him build a bunker next to your cc? Quoting for emphasis...letting the second bunker go up is why you lost. It's not unfair, you were outplayed.
quoting because you guys can't read "had more marines than me"
even if you manage to kill off the bunker he will still be able to outproduce you since he most likely also killed some of your scvs and evened the worker count.
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On September 15 2010 12:48 blagoonga123 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2010 09:58 RadicalEdwrd wrote:On September 15 2010 07:27 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On September 15 2010 06:01 blagoonga123 wrote:On September 15 2010 05:57 Dente wrote:
Easy to stop. One bunker and you are safe. not true. Played a tvt, got proxy marine'd, set up bunker, killed his first bunker and a few marines, he set up a bunker outside of the range of my bunker and in range of my CC and had more marines than me because he had more barracks than me, i lost because my barracks was absolutely useless and it was impossible to set up a new barracks. Why'd you let him build a bunker next to your cc? Quoting for emphasis...letting the second bunker go up is why you lost. It's not unfair, you were outplayed. quoting because you guys can't read " had more marines than me" even if you manage to kill off the bunker he will still be able to outproduce you since he most likely also killed some of your scvs and evened the worker count.
And that's why you put your bunker at your choke...
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On September 15 2010 05:09 Lunares wrote:
You should never have to waste 5-6 seconds splitting your scv off.
Also a 12 rax can hold off a 9 rax double proxy if you are careful with your rax placement, depot placement, and use a few scv's to help your marines. a well placed bunker will also help.
Stop complaining and learn how to play better, it's cheese and yes you have to learn how to deal with it but it really isn't that hard to fend off if you control well.
If you know how to fight it off, maybe teaching us, who are so called bad players instead of saying stuff that makes no sense. If it's so easy to stop, we shouldn't see someone proxy barrack twice in a row in a big tournament.
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On September 15 2010 14:46 KuFingreen wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2010 05:09 Lunares wrote:
You should never have to waste 5-6 seconds splitting your scv off.
Also a 12 rax can hold off a 9 rax double proxy if you are careful with your rax placement, depot placement, and use a few scv's to help your marines. a well placed bunker will also help.
Stop complaining and learn how to play better, it's cheese and yes you have to learn how to deal with it but it really isn't that hard to fend off if you control well. If you know how to fight it off, maybe teaching us, who are so called bad players instead of saying stuff that makes no sense. If it's so easy to stop, we shouldn't see someone proxy barrack twice in a row in a big tournament.
Uh yeah... except that was a TvP, not a TvT.
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On September 15 2010 05:12 InfestedSC2 wrote:
There are EASILY 2-3 proxy locations to scout on most maps. You are suggesting that EVERY single TvT someone plays they should pull an early SCV off and go scout all of the common proxy locations?
Yes.
Not too long ago, I was reading the battle report for the Lost Saga MSL, Stork v JangBi. I would just like to quote from that battle report:
KwarK wrote:
Stork warped in at 11 while JangBi took 5. Both mirrored perfectly, opening 8p, 10g -> scout and then checking the far side of their nat for proxy 99s and checking their main on about 12 psi.
Seriously guys, check. It slows your scout probe for a total of one second to go slightly further in the nat and it's about 5 seconds mining time to check your main. Stop losing to proxy 99s and realise you don't actually have to, you just have to remember to play safe.
The point is, losing to proxies is silly considering that the extra 10-20 seconds it takes to scout an additional location will secure you a free win. While you certainly get later scouting info (or none at all), you simply can't afford to lose to something like a proxy when all you need to do is scout in another location.
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According to this thread I can 2 proxy my way to 1100 Diamond.
brb
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Terran shouting Terran is OP, I wish this were news. But all kidding aside, I do agree the strat is a little more powerful then it should be, it might be one of those issues that will be fixed with better maps, but honestly Zlot cheese is too powerful so its getting nerfed right? But stupid 6 pool and proxy rax builds are still allowed? I think lings and marines should also be nerfed in accordance with the zlots nerf to help deal with these silly games.
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On September 15 2010 05:05 InfestedSC2 wrote:
So, I'm entirely sick of losing to stupid proxy barracks in TvT. And this doesn't just happen at lower levels; a 1500 diamond player just did it to me today.
Why am I sick of it? There's no way to scout it early enough to stop it.
Stopped reading there. I'm sorry, but that is just literally impossible.
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On September 15 2010 15:22 Subversion wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2010 05:05 InfestedSC2 wrote:
So, I'm entirely sick of losing to stupid proxy barracks in TvT. And this doesn't just happen at lower levels; a 1500 diamond player just did it to me today.
Why am I sick of it? There's no way to scout it early enough to stop it. Stopped reading there. I'm sorry, but that is just literally impossible.
I'm pretty sure what he meant is that there is no way to scout it without putting yourself and an unacceptable advantage against standard play. Not that I necessarily agree that it does in this case, but in general, unavoidably blind decisions are bad for gameplay.
I haven't faced this yet so I just have a few questions.
If you 12 scout (scv that built depot) the proxy locations, do you catch it in time? If so then this likely isn't an issue. Theres nothing all that important to find in the enemy base at that time anyways, so take a few seconds and scout the proxies to play it safe. If thats not fast enough then we might have a problem.
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proxy barracks is not a huge issue in TVT, at all.
as other already said, don't get lazy about scouting proxy locations. What I like doing is scout just below my ramp (also scout in my base with the 12th scv while waiting for rax money) and then head straight to his base while checking a xel naga tower on the way if that's an option. you can usually see what he's doing by the amount of SCVs he has mining (and see if it's reapers or marines cuz of gas). Generally people don't go proxy marines on 4player maps.
if you see no gas - prepare for marines:
If it's not superclose to or in your base, you should be fine by pulling a few scvs to the ramp and building a bunker while defending. What that scv number is - test it out with a friend and see how many you're comfortable with, it depends on your micro.
if you see gas - build a tech lab asap and make a marauder
if you don't panic and don't screw up by a lot, you should be ahead of your opponent economy and tech wise.
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On September 15 2010 16:14 SoFFacet wrote:
If you 12 scout (scv that built depot) the proxy locations, do you catch it in time?
Yes you do. I proxy marine rush in a lot of my TvT's and I don't think an opponent has ever failed to scout me in time on a 2 player map. Those that do scout me still sometimes lose, but only because they're retarded and make really bad decisions, which I think is what OP's problem is. It should be an auto-win if you scout it, and if you don't scout it for whatever reason you can still minimize your losses with decent micro. This topic is just ridiculous...
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When I pvz and forge first or tvz and zerg hatches first they put a drone on patrol at bottom of ramp so I can't wall them in with pylon/cannon or bunker, if you did this tvt while playing standard, you would be able to see any bunker that could be a threat being made before it was an issue. Pull scvs should work fine against marines not in a bunker, so the issue is preventing the bunker from being made before you have marines to stop it with. So, make sure you see the scv before it can make a bunker and block the best places for the bunker. A single unmining scv shouldn't put you at any disadvantage against a cheeser. As for picking the safe option and not being able to do anything with your extra 1-2 marines, you could try making a fast cc. The extra units won't help during an attack, but will in defense. If your marines block scv scouting he's forced to play safe anyway, and is unlikely to be able to pressure you during your vulnerable window. Can transition into thor or ghost/maurauder, as both are decent vs ground and banshee. Then do something that can take advantage of your extra gas. If he's going air, you can outproduce him relying on your ghost/thor until you have good air numbers. If he's going marine heavy, you can make a lot of tanks. If he's going maurauder heavy, you can go banshee (probably with cloak, but not necessarily) into bc. If he all-ins, you can afford to pull scvs for defense since you have 2 ccs (you have 2 mules and can replace scvs twice as fast as he can), and should have extra minerals to make bunkers out of. There's a strength to every single build for any situation, you just have to find it.
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How can you complain about this as a Terran when every other race is forced to early scout vs Terran for the very same reason?
Protoss players have to 9 pylon scout unless they want to risk getting bunker rushed, which is a big deal cause it pushes a regular 13 gateway back to 14 gateway or if you go 12 gate, there's a significant delay on your 13th probe.
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Surely all you can do about this is:
.Make sure on 1v1 maps you scout nice and early (like after supply depot goes down) checking the obvious places
.Pull scv's if you need to. They'll be behind you anyway considering they sent 2 scv's to your base so early in the game.
This is all I can think you can do.
Anyone practiced this with a partner and knows for sure how the rough timings work out with a 10 supply 12 rax?
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On September 15 2010 05:07 DreamSailor wrote:
Scout inside your base then.
If you catch the proxy barracks, you are in a huge advantage, you can kill the SCV, he loses his barracks, and has to start over.
^this works. . .his scv certainly isn't going to be able to build a rax if you scouted him when he starts. If it isn't really inside your base you shouldn't have to much trouble holding your ramp with scvs and rines even if your barracks is a little behind.
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you're on the defense, if you can just keep your marines alive and build a bunker then you win..
or how about a WALL ?
he'll never be able to sneak an scv up your ramp because your first supply depot will spot it even on the tiny maps.
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On September 15 2010 14:37 attackfighter wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2010 12:48 blagoonga123 wrote:On September 15 2010 09:58 RadicalEdwrd wrote:On September 15 2010 07:27 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On September 15 2010 06:01 blagoonga123 wrote:On September 15 2010 05:57 Dente wrote:
Easy to stop. One bunker and you are safe. not true. Played a tvt, got proxy marine'd, set up bunker, killed his first bunker and a few marines, he set up a bunker outside of the range of my bunker and in range of my CC and had more marines than me because he had more barracks than me, i lost because my barracks was absolutely useless and it was impossible to set up a new barracks. Why'd you let him build a bunker next to your cc? Quoting for emphasis...letting the second bunker go up is why you lost. It's not unfair, you were outplayed. quoting because you guys can't read " had more marines than me" even if you manage to kill off the bunker he will still be able to outproduce you since he most likely also killed some of your scvs and evened the worker count. And that's why you put your bunker at your choke...
yeah that would have helped me lose even faster.
the timings worked out such that my scv was already under fire while building the bunker, if i waited 5 more seconds for my scv to run to my choke, the bunker would never have even come up.
look, i'm just trying to say it's not as easy as putting down a bunker and winning.
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infested, can you upload some replays?
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On September 16 2010 00:53 blagoonga123 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2010 14:37 attackfighter wrote:On September 15 2010 12:48 blagoonga123 wrote:On September 15 2010 09:58 RadicalEdwrd wrote:On September 15 2010 07:27 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On September 15 2010 06:01 blagoonga123 wrote:On September 15 2010 05:57 Dente wrote:
Easy to stop. One bunker and you are safe. not true. Played a tvt, got proxy marine'd, set up bunker, killed his first bunker and a few marines, he set up a bunker outside of the range of my bunker and in range of my CC and had more marines than me because he had more barracks than me, i lost because my barracks was absolutely useless and it was impossible to set up a new barracks. Why'd you let him build a bunker next to your cc? Quoting for emphasis...letting the second bunker go up is why you lost. It's not unfair, you were outplayed. quoting because you guys can't read " had more marines than me" even if you manage to kill off the bunker he will still be able to outproduce you since he most likely also killed some of your scvs and evened the worker count. And that's why you put your bunker at your choke... yeah that would have helped me lose even faster. the timings worked out such that my scv was already under fire while building the bunker, if i waited 5 more seconds for my scv to run to my choke, the bunker would never have even come up. look, i'm just trying to say it's not as easy as putting down a bunker and winning.
That's because you scouted late and payed the price, and if he came that early he should've only had 1 or 2 marines so your SCV's could've easily overpowered them. It's not the impossible situation you're trying to portray it is, you just played poorly and lost.
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getting delayed, or even not scouting him, isn't insurmountable. he has bunkers in your base? so you build your own. he is not mobile enough to kill scvs without first killing the bunker. your bunker will die because he has more marines than you? you have more SCVs than him. So you repair your bunker/command center, and keep teching (out of sight, preferably). tanks will get him out of your face, but an even better idea is hellions; go and blow up all his SCVs (at his main), and the marine pressure should stop.
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9 Rax bunker rush is pretty much a nonevent to stop. Honestly. Everyone has said it. Furthermore, you don't AUTOLOSE to a 12 Gas, 13 Rax, by opening 11 Rax. You have a TINY economic advantage that disappears if you FE faster than him. Same thing against a standard 12 Rax. If you can't win with an 11 Rax against a 12 Gas 13 Rax, you have other problems than getting Bunker rush'd. No one is good enough to get a Build Order Loss from a single SCV or 2 difference resulting from an 11 vs 13 Rax.
The issue in the matchup, IF ANYTHING, is getting 9 Rax Proxy Reaper'd. Jesus, those are my only losses anymore TvT. I just pack up the proverbial toys and go home to that opening.
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Doesn't getting 1 reaper win, or can't you use your scouting scv and put down a rax and counter? your econ should be better. Maybe even base trade or lift off? Don't play TvT so dont know how viable this is.
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On September 15 2010 05:05 InfestedSC2 wrote:
Some people may try to refute my claim by saying that you just need to get your barracks up earlier. It's true that I have stopped this rush with an 11 barracks. However, going for an 11 barracks is simply UNACCEPTABLE.
Why is it unacceptable? Because if your opponent goes for 12 gas 13 rax (economical tech build), you will auto lose.
No you wont. If your so worried about cheese. Do an anti cheese build. Sure it will set you behind in some games, but to say you "autolose" is a terrrrrrrible way to think. Its the way people think after they lose 3+ games in a row. You never autolose due to build differences unless you play the "my big ball of units fights your big ball of units in the middle of the map, winner take all" style of play, and if so, then you should try to do other things to win.
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Okay, I'll give a step-by-step process for how to stop it, because people are still having trouble:
1) Always scout on 9, after your depot. Scout common proxy locations (including inside your base on 2-player maps), then go to his base.
If the proxy is in your base:
+ Show Spoiler +
1) Pull one worker to put on each one of his workers. You will catch the rax before it is completed. This will prevent him from building bunkers, and you may even kill him before his rax finishes, giving you an insta-win. Put first marine on him asap if he tries to bunker.
2) Don't upgrade OC. Use 100 of the 150 you would have spent on the OC building a bunker by his raxes (close enough that your marines will kill his rines as they come out)
If the proxy is outside of your base.
+ Show Spoiler +1) Keep your scout SCV around the raxes to see if he tech-labs to do reapers. If he doesn't, continue. If he does, quit and make a new thread about how it is unbeatable. This SCV also can tell when marines are coming.
2) Don't build your OC. Send a marine to your ramp and start building a bunker.
3) Every time you see a marine come out of his raxes, pull 2-3 scvs off the line to fight them off until your bunker gets up.
3a) If the scv comes into your base to bunker, pull an scv or two to put on him as well. Get your first marine on him asap.
4) Once your bunker gets up, put scvs back on mining, put marines in bunker, win.
If your opponent is not proxying:
+ Show Spoiler +
If you did not find the proxy, he runs in with marines, and you lose:
+ Show Spoiler +1) Watch replay, add that proxy location to your mental list of spots to check, grab tissues & have a good cry, try again.
There, every possible case accounted for. It takes some micro to win and you can still screw up and lose if you do it wrong, but follow this and you should be fine.
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I was about to open a new thread, but since I found this one that was recently started i'm just gonna post here.
just played a game, got proxy 8-rax reaper rushed, and I honestly don't think I could have stopped it, even if I did scout it.
here's rep: ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-149266.jpg)
I'd really like to know how I'm supposed to scout this in time, first of all, since there are 3 good proxy locations on Sands (outside the base, and the gold patches) and then of course how I stop it without a marauder, since there is know way I could have gotten a Marauder out before the first reaper got in my base.
If you have anything to say, I'd like you to post a replay of you or someone else stopping this strat, or point me to a vod of someone stopping it.
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Yea its a masive issue, it doesn't even put the proxying player behind much, and its not risky coz u dont need to have the rax in ur base for allot of strats. Maybe the bunker build time increase in 1.1 will help
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If I see a fast scout / empty base I pretty much automatically assume cheese. Hasn't let me down once. When you know it's comming it's easy to stop.
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On September 16 2010 10:51 KiLL_ORdeR wrote:If you have anything to say, I'd like you to post a replay of you or someone else stopping this strat, or point me to a vod of someone stopping it.
Here you go:
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-135271.jpg)
I even forgot to scout and thought there were marines so I bunkered my ramp (which was useless) and still held it off. You just need SCV micro. Put SCVs on the reapers and then trail with marines.
You cannot hold off early game cheese TvT without pulling SCVs and putting them to good use. You let your first marine die without getting anything out of it.
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On September 16 2010 11:22 0c3LoT wrote:
If I see a fast scout / empty base I pretty much automatically assume cheese. Hasn't let me down once. When you know it's coming it's easy to stop.
Ya, as do I, but with a proxy reaper like that, they can cliff, so your opponent can build their initial rax literally anywhere on the map, and you have to get a bit lucky to scout it. that's the main problem with proxy reaper, and you can't wall them out, since they can cliff.
On September 16 2010 12:04 iEchoic wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2010 10:51 KiLL_ORdeR wrote:If you have anything to say, I'd like you to post a replay of you or someone else stopping this strat, or point me to a vod of someone stopping it. Here you go: I even forgot to scout and thought there were marines so I bunkered my ramp (which was useless) and still held it off. You just need SCV micro. Put SCVs on the reapers and then trail with marines. You cannot hold off early game cheese TvT without pulling SCVs and putting them to good use. You let your first marine die without getting anything out of it.
wow thanks a lot, I guess it is quite easy.
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EPT
