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Aotearoa39261 Posts
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qg1ckCkm8YI
There is a fair number of "Will it X" type shows around these days, but really nothing for SC2 at the moment. We all know that the game is young and that anything could be viable (as seen by AugustWerra's BC rush against Iron) so the question naturally arises - what strategies work, and what strategies do not work.
The idea is simple, pick a counter intuitive strategy, get 5 games of it in action and determine whether or not the build, strategy, unit composition - whatever - is viable in a competitive setting.
My credentials? I'm a Protoss player. I've watched over 600 replays since the start of retail (no joke). I'm #35 on the SEA server. I regularly play practice games against Jimdiddy (Zerg on SEA, #33 at the moment but will rise next week for sure), Camlito (Zerg on SEA, #94 but a lot better than that really), Youngminii (#30 on SEA, Protoss, will rise as well), Pachi (terrible Zerg on SEA  adorable staff member though), Saracen (Zerg on NA, top 100) infinity21 (top 100 Terran on NA) and Corinthos (another good Terran on NA). Occasionally I get games with better players like Naruto (who is awesome) and I bounce ideas off of Nazgul and Jinro occasionally.
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/Plexa/Is_It_Viable/1.jpg) Is Sentry/Zeal/Immortal Viable?
The inspiration for this came from the Korean Server, namely a game between Zero and Mio. Zero opens up with a very similar build to what Mana is playing in PvT at the moment - gate/robo/gate/gate/expo. I happened to have practiced this build quite a bit with Naruto and Infinity recently. However, his approach to the build is entirely different than mine or Mana's - he makes zealots and sentries early on and quickly adds an immortal. Mio pushes out with marine/marauder/stim to try and shut down the quick expand - but forcefields prevent him from killing the nexus or doing any damage what so ever - as depicted above.
Zero went on to transition into Stalker/Sentry/Colossus (how Korean of him) but it raised my curiosity. Just exactly how viable is Zealot/Sentry/Immortal as a unit composition? Infinity kindly agreed to play some games against me to test this.
Before we go on, you can grab the Zero/Mio replay here.
The Build
I more or less followed this:
13 Gate
14 Gas
15 Pylon
17 Core
19 Zeal
Gas
Sentry
Warp Gate
Pylon
Robo
Zealot
Gate
Gate
With the idea to take my expansion around 40 supply after working out what the Terran is doing either by scouting with probe/zeal or an observer which I build from the robo once it's done (unless there is pressure). You can see the exact build in the replays that follow.
The Terran Build
Infinity used very greedy 1rax FE build. I think this is a very powerful Terran build and while it means that this build isn't tested against all unit compositions, it should give a fairly good indication about how valid it is against typical terran unit compositions. Extending this build/unit composition to other openings shouldn't be too difficult since the base build is Mana's quick expansion build - which is completely valid against every Terran opening I've encountered so far (except possibly the 3-1-2 build - still need to work on that!).
Game 1 - Replay
Being the very first game with this new strategy, there were a lot of things I did wrong this game. Nevertheless, I could already see the potential in this unit combo. After fending off infinity's initial 2mara1rine push, I was able to take my expo and pressure him with a decent army.
While I feel that I overproduced sentries, and probably could have controlled a bit better, the push was quite successful:
The rest of the game I keep pressuring Infinity with immortal/sentry/zeal to great effect - while teching to Colossus. Infinity expands first, but I am able to snipe his CC (but losing my army in the process). I tried to expand at this time as well, but infinity just has too much stuff and rolls me with ease.
The moral of this game is: Colossus are not the best thing to transition into. Without stalkers, you can't fend off Vikings (I'm just lucky infinity didn't make any). Further, they're vulnerable and the way you want to FF to maximise the efficiency of your Colossus renders your Zealots useless. Getting twilight tech and Templar tech up appeared to be the far better option. The game shows that the composition has potential, but needed more refinement.
Game 2 - Game 2
We spawn cross positions on Metal - and I can't get any pressure off on infinity's FE. Basically, he's ahead. I expand after getting an Immortal - which is stupid since I should have taken it before then Immortal - then proceed to rush charge. My mindset going into this was - charge kills maras, so I'll get one immortal to fend off pushes and we'll see how it goes.
Well the push came.
And then the push annihilated my forces
Not much to say. I got massively out played and bleh.
This game taught me that rushing charge isn't going to be beneficial. Relying on one Immortal to do things also doesn't work, so in subsequent games I would have to be producing Immortals a lot more frequently.
Game 3 - Replay
Game opens as usual, but infinity puts on a little more pressure with mara/marine. Unfortunately for him, the moment I get my Immortal out, three perfect forcefields land and trap them. This gives me a bit of a timing window to pressure his expansion where I am able to kill off a good number of SCVs.
Anyway, the game progresses a bit and infinity prepared to push out and pressure my expansion. By this time he has a good economy and a good number of rax (5 I believe). But the masses of Mara/Rine come rolling in and get crushed with some nice forcefields:
Who's going to win?Damn straight!
Again, this gives me a chance to pressure. Which I do! By now I've got storm just about finished and Infinity has mixed in Medivacs. With the aid of storm, it isn't long before infinity is force to concede. (I make it sound so one sided, it really wasnt!)
This game felt a LOT better than the previous two. Getting multiple immortal and stalling charge/storm for units felt natural and good. The transition into storm felt a lot more natural than how Protoss rush for it at the moment. It was an easy and natural progression - and it felt goooood. By this stage, I'm starting to think that this is really going to work.
Game 4 - Replay
Infinity throws in a reaper this game, and it gives me a bit of grief. Nothing too serious though. So this game, since we're close positions, I decide to try and pressure with my initial immortal squadron in hope to delay infinity's expansion. I'm able to find a sweet spot where he hasn't bunkered and get a kill or two
But in doing so, Infinity is able to chase down my units and kill off half of them leaving my army particularly weak. Now I'm quite worried, since I'm desperately warping in units while he's massing up for a killing blow. He moves in, forcefields go down and then...
Hi army gets straight up destroyed. I don't think either of us could really believe it. I take the initiative, push into his natural and do a bit of damage. I eventually lose all my units, but hey! they did their job.
Now I (stupidly) decide that expanding while getting storm is a good idea. So I try to take the far gold expansion while pumping out units so I don't immediately die to a counter attack. This delays storm a bit, so when infinity comes knocking at my door ...
No Storm 
He completely destroys me. You just cannot fight medivacs without storm or Colossus - you will just die. The rest of the game is really just a formality from here, he kills my natural, kills my gold expansion and then drops my main. gg.
While I lost, the strength of this combination really shone through. The importance of getting storm in a timely manner to survive once medivacs come into play is emphasized in this game. With better decision making, this game could have easily been mine.
Game 5 - Replay
Game opens very similar to the previous one - infinity with reaper pressure (which is more successful) and I try to pressure him with my initial set of units. However, this game he's bunkered off the back side of the minerals so I can't get into the same sweet spot as the previous game. Oh well. The game ends up being quite passive - with infinity going for quick medivacs and me go going for quick storm to counter. And well when he moved out:
Storm does it's job and scared infinity away. After a while longer, I expand to my third and move out. Thanks to some pretty nice FFs we get this amazing shot:
Infinity clings on to dear life, and I retreat to bolster my forces. Infinity then switches up to Banshee - a switch I completely miss. Thus when he goes to attack my main, I counter his main. A base trade ensues and eventually (thanks for some emergency templar storming) I'm able to take the game. This was definitely the highlight of the series imo.
Is it Viable? - HELL YES
This build offers a flexible alternative to 'standard' PvT. While it's viability against more marine heavy compositions is questionable, I think these games demonstrate that in most circumstances you will be fine - despite what your intuition might tell you! Sentries are surprisingly good when they're not being killed off!
You can also take solace in the knowledge that the base of this build is the PvT build used by Mana - if he's not pressuring you you can build the obs before the immortal and expand. See what he's doing with the obs and if he's making banshees make some Stalkers accordingly. If he's 1-1-1, great you have an expo and a ton of units coming out, you'll be fine! Don't forget to get storm out at the same time he has medivacs coming out - you can't win against the ball without feedback, at the very least (with storm on the way of course!)
So my Protoss brothers, give this a try - I bet you will be surprised!
If you have something you think would be good for "Is it Viable?" please shoot me a PM! Please try to stay civil in this thread, keep it imbalance free (i.e. dont bitch about anything being OP) and try to remain open minded. I'm not claiming this is the be all and end all of PvT, I'm simply trying to point out alternatives that a viable - being optimal or not is a different matter
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Plexa, once again your articles are right up my alley. I'm the kind of person who'd deliberately avoid 4 warpgate because it's too common, and try to steer the game into my kind of craziness.
I've finished reading through and am about to check your replays. I want to ask my friend if he's willing to hit a few customs with me so I can test out transitions.
Good to see you writing again. And yes, the SC2 strategy forum is horrible. =P
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![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/Plexa/Is_It_Viable/11.jpg) No Storm
Did you remember to feedback the medivacs? Lots of people forget to when pushes hit right before storm is out...use those HT if you can!
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yeah I've been using a zealot sentry immortal composition all day on US before reading this funnily enough  , I've had really nice success with it, slowly transitioning into zealot legs -> storm, and obviously getting stalkers if he starts incorporating banshees. (all I've played at all recently is either bio or bio+banshees.... does anyone mech anymore? ^_~)
I was opening a bit different to you tho, it was something along the lines of (never cutting probes)
pylon
gate
assim
pylon
core
zealot
stalker (chronoed if i scout techlab opening) + warpgate
pylon
stalker
sentry
nexus
pylon
then you drop 2 warpgates and an assimilator, then a robo shortly after, building zealots in the meantime and sentries with the gas and chronoing an obs out asap from the robo when it finishes. I think its similar to one that was posted in the strat forum, but it might vary a little not really sure
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So I apologize if I missed a part in your description of this strat, but I was wondering wouldn't a marine ghost build severely hurt you? EMP would simply destroy immortals, and if they got a really, really good emp you would get very few, if any, force fields out.
edit: Just feel I should have said this first but, I REALLY love this style of thinking. I've been testing out all sorts of strategies ALL the time vs every match up. I think I do too much of this trial stuff because it's reflecting in my ladder record .
edit #2: I need good practice partners !!
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This Is GREAT I LUV YOU PLEXA!!!! You should really continue this series. Im a protoss plater who can only 3 gate expo, 4 gate, and voidray rush and tvp. Im honestly 2 scared to try new strategys since im a coward to losing and i have no practice partner. Let me say this again..this shit is great
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I like I like.
How come you never told me about this build
Always good to have more builds to use against MM (OP... I'm allowed to say that since this is a blog, right?)
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On September 10 2010 17:02 Dog22 wrote:So I apologize if I missed a part in your description of this strat, but I was wondering wouldn't a marine ghost build severely hurt you? EMP would simply destroy immortals, and if they got a really, really good emp you would get very few, if any, force fields out. edit: Just feel I should have said this first but, I REALLY love this style of thinking. I've been testing out all sorts of strategies ALL the time vs every match up. I think I do too much of this trial stuff because it's reflecting in my ladder record . edit #2: need good practice partners !!
Yea in theory that should crush this. So since he's not pressuring you that first obs needs to see what he's doing. If you see a ghost academy and suspect marine/ghost play then abort plan asap lol. Fortunately, Colossus are the best unit to make against marine/ghost so you'll need to add a Robotics Bay and transition into Colossus/Zealot/Sentry (since you'll have zeal/sentry left over from the opening). Being flexible and adapting to what the Terran is doing is critical to the success of a Protoss player anyway  fortunately, this works against most standard Terran strategies at the moment (marine/ghost is pretty unpopular atm!)
On September 10 2010 17:08 youngminii wrote:I like I like. How come you never told me about this build Always good to have more builds to use against MM (OP... I'm allowed to say that since this is a blog, right?) Saw the rep today, tested it against infinity within the last 3 hours or so
On September 10 2010 17:04 Tabbris wrote:
This Is GREAT I LUV YOU PLEXA!!!! You should really continue this series. Im a protoss plater who can only 3 gate expo, 4 gate, and voidray rush and tvp. Im honestly 2 scared to try new strategys since im a coward to losing and i have no practice partner. Let me say this again..this shit is great If you've got anything you feel is worth trying, lemme know my standard PvZ revolves around spamming sentries and using hallucination to scout so that's the kind of player I am haha
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On September 10 2010 17:10 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2010 17:02 Dog22 wrote:So I apologize if I missed a part in your description of this strat, but I was wondering wouldn't a marine ghost build severely hurt you? EMP would simply destroy immortals, and if they got a really, really good emp you would get very few, if any, force fields out. edit: Just feel I should have said this first but, I REALLY love this style of thinking. I've been testing out all sorts of strategies ALL the time vs every match up. I think I do too much of this trial stuff because it's reflecting in my ladder record . edit #2: need good practice partners !! Yea in theory that should crush this. So since he's not pressuring you that first obs needs to see what he's doing. If you see a ghost academy and suspect marine/ghost play then abort plan asap lol. Fortunately, Colossus are the best unit to make against marine/ghost so you'll need to add a Robotics Bay and transition into Colossus/Zealot/Sentry (since you'll have zeal/sentry left over from the opening). Being flexible and adapting to what the Terran is doing is critical to the success of a Protoss player anyway fortunately, this works against most standard Terran strategies at the moment (marine/ghost is pretty unpopular atm!) Show nested quote +On September 10 2010 17:08 youngminii wrote:I like I like. How come you never told me about this build Always good to have more builds to use against MM (OP... I'm allowed to say that since this is a blog, right?) Saw the rep today, tested it against infinity within the last 3 hours or so
Yeah, I definitely agree with the adaptation part of Protoss.
I've been going a phoenix opening lately with pretty good success. I'll definitely give this a shot to see how well it works for me. Man there are just so many strats I wanna try . Lend me some of your practice buddies when you have a chance haha
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On September 10 2010 17:20 Plexa wrote:Yea I used to open exclusively Phoenix in PvT, modelled after socke obviously. But there are some annoying timing pushes on SEA that kill that build so having some other, more macro oriented, builds is necessary imo. kcdc's is a great build to mix into your arsenal for instance Phoenix play will always have a soft spot in my heart though <3
Totally hate Phoenixes in PvT, glad you finally moved away from that strat ^_^
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I can't imagine this build working vs tank/blue flame hellions though. One good EMP and a few waves of blue flame and your entire army melts. I've been using mech a lot recently and i always like it when the toss goes heavy on either zeals or sentries
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On September 10 2010 17:29 unSpeake wrote:
I can't imagine this build working vs tank/blue flame hellions though. One good EMP and a few waves of blue flame and your entire army melts. I've been using mech a lot recently and i always like it when the toss goes heavy on either zeals or sentries
Again, its all about adaption. The build gives you that quick obs so I can see that you're making multiple factories and then I instantly know I'm going to need more robotics facilities
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i read this, thought it was super baller and tried it out on the next terran i saw.
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/77164-1v1-terran-protoss-lost-temple
i did a lot of experimental things this game like early pushing into a ghost marauder opening, which went surprisingly well. I was able to secure an expansion which essentially allowed me to be ahead the entire game. I came out on top almost every fight and finished the game with a voidray backstab + zealot drop + army 1a2a3a4a in the front
+ Show Spoiler [to all the super analytical people] +
my macro was pretty poor because a) i love getting pylon blocked, it's why i play SC and b) first time doing the build = wat are timings ???
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have they ever failed to blend anything
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Think you can try a phoenix opening vs terran? I heard nony had success with it but i rarely see it
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On September 10 2010 18:12 Tabbris wrote:
Think you can try a phoenix opening vs terran? I heard nony had success with it but i rarely see it
Haha I don't need to try :p go watch Socke's games from ESL today or Socke's games from go4sc2 36 (rep pack in tournament roundup post)
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Katowice25012 Posts
On September 10 2010 17:56 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2010 17:29 unSpeake wrote:
I can't imagine this build working vs tank/blue flame hellions though. One good EMP and a few waves of blue flame and your entire army melts. I've been using mech a lot recently and i always like it when the toss goes heavy on either zeals or sentries Again, its all about adaption. The build gives you that quick obs so I can see that you're making multiple factories and then I instantly know I'm going to need more robotics facilities
So what you're saying is
YES, IT BLENDS
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There are two builds that are pretty standard on EU server that I would see this build have major issues with. Marine + Ghost preasure, and the 1-1-2 fast raven into banshees. Have you run in to any of those builds and if so have you made the build bend around it? The fast raven almost negates everything the fast obs gives you so how would you deal with that?
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On September 10 2010 18:56 Hynda wrote:
There are two builds that are pretty standard on EU server that I would see this build have major issues with. Marine + Ghost preasure, and the 1-1-2 fast raven into banshees. Have you run in to any of those builds and if so have you made the build bend around it? The fast raven almost negates everything the fast obs gives you so how would you deal with that? Marine/ghost I would transition into Colossus like I said before, the 1-1-2 or rather 3-1-2 would give me the most problem. I haven't worked out that yet nor do I have any theorycraft to deal with it.
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On September 10 2010 18:32 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2010 18:12 Tabbris wrote:
Think you can try a phoenix opening vs terran? I heard nony had success with it but i rarely see it Haha I don't need to try :p go watch Socke's games from ESL today or Socke's games from go4sc2 36 (rep pack in tournament roundup post)
will do thx
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On September 10 2010 18:58 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2010 18:56 Hynda wrote:
There are two builds that are pretty standard on EU server that I would see this build have major issues with. Marine + Ghost preasure, and the 1-1-2 fast raven into banshees. Have you run in to any of those builds and if so have you made the build bend around it? The fast raven almost negates everything the fast obs gives you so how would you deal with that? Marine/ghost I would transition into Colossus like I said before, the 1-1-2 or rather 3-1-2 would give me the most problem. I haven't worked out that yet nor do I have any theorycraft to deal with it.
What would you use to keep the marine + ghosts out of your base with the early push? Rely on the obs to scout it and just skip immortals and rush to a colossus asap?
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On September 10 2010 19:04 Hynda wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2010 18:58 Plexa wrote:On September 10 2010 18:56 Hynda wrote:
There are two builds that are pretty standard on EU server that I would see this build have major issues with. Marine + Ghost preasure, and the 1-1-2 fast raven into banshees. Have you run in to any of those builds and if so have you made the build bend around it? The fast raven almost negates everything the fast obs gives you so how would you deal with that? Marine/ghost I would transition into Colossus like I said before, the 1-1-2 or rather 3-1-2 would give me the most problem. I haven't worked out that yet nor do I have any theorycraft to deal with it. What would you use to keep the marine + ghosts out of your base with the early push? Rely on the obs to scout it and just skip immortals and rush to a colossus asap?
Exactly that. I would have to play some proper games against it to know whether I need to cancel the expansion or not - but it should be holdable
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I like stuff like this, I tried using Colossus to attack a zealot placed next to a cloaked ghost trying to nuke, and while quite difficult it's possible to kill it with splash if you start it pretty soon after the nuke is launched :3
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Awww i never get shoutouts, guess i should play more, thanks :D.
Well put together post, the timeline of how your builds worked in the replays was interesting. After watching testers game yesterday, im thinking that this is a really good way to use that concept (although tester isn't some revolutionist using sentrys).
I might want to try this when i offrace PvT.
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Have you tried this against Naruto's 3rax? I can see how forcefields can really turn the tide against a 3rax build. I've seen Naruto's 3rax get rolled by Socke using clutch forcefields, but I think it will depend on map and the availability of key chokepoints which with to really funnel bio through and prevent the bio army retreating.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On September 10 2010 20:23 Entropic wrote:
Have you tried this against Naruto's 3rax? I can see how forcefields can really turn the tide against a 3rax build. I've seen Naruto's 3rax get rolled by Socke using clutch forcefields, but I think it will depend on map and the availability of key chokepoints which with to really funnel bio through and prevent the bio army retreating.
I got rolled 8 times against Naruto's 3rax using a more standard version of this build (i.e. the exact same unit composition mana uses), I have a good feeling that this would fare a lot better. Maybe he'll give me some more games later ^^ Naruto is a really good player and he doesn't get half the respect he deserves. His TvP is ridiculously good, he just keeps running into Socke and co in big tournaments.
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Wow, cool stuff
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United States11390 Posts
On September 10 2010 20:14 Camlito wrote:
Awww i never get shoutouts, guess i should play more, thanks :D.
Well put together post, the timeline of how your builds worked in the replays was interesting. After watching testers game yesterday, im thinking that this is a really good way to use that concept (although tester isn't some revolutionist using sentrys).
I might want to try this when i offrace PvT.
What about a shoutout for going back to Zerg and not playing Terran anymore??
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This should be in the spotlight, awesome write up
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nice write up. i've thought about going this way but im too lazy to practice a new build. Gona stick with my fast pheonix for now.
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Austin10831 Posts
This is great. Topics like this make me want to play more 1v1.
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I don't play toss, but as always I love your work just because it's a good read. I hope you do an episode 2 soon!
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And how do you deal with banshees ?
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On September 10 2010 23:50 Boblion wrote:
And how do you deal with banshees ?
He scouts with his Observer, and if he sees Banshees, he gets more Stalkers.
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I definitely agree with this, I have been doing it for a while. There is NO reason to get stalkers as a straight up unit, while zealot/immortal with guardian shield and forcefields rip up early bio. It can even deal with marine ghost since immortals aren't any worse than stalkers for back up DPS. When the Bio ball gets better you need to move into storm/chargelot/immortal though if you prefer I suppose colossus works.
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On September 10 2010 20:30 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2010 20:23 Entropic wrote:
Have you tried this against Naruto's 3rax? I can see how forcefields can really turn the tide against a 3rax build. I've seen Naruto's 3rax get rolled by Socke using clutch forcefields, but I think it will depend on map and the availability of key chokepoints which with to really funnel bio through and prevent the bio army retreating. I got rolled 8 times against Naruto's 3rax using a more standard version of this build (i.e. the exact same unit composition mana uses), I have a good feeling that this would fare a lot better. Maybe he'll give me some more games later ^^ Naruto is a really good player and he doesn't get half the respect he deserves. His TvP is ridiculously good, he just keeps running into Socke and co in big tournaments.
Which timing do you get rolled at? I know there are 2 key timings to the 3rax build, one that comes out around 50 supply with just marine marauder (usually comes out to punish fast expos), and a later push that comes with marine marauder medivac that comes around 70 supply give or take 10.
I'm assuming the latter because Naruto will have seen you stay on one base and wait for the medivacs before pushing.
EDIT: I've seen a lot of replays of Naruto's PvT myself (I basically stole his 3rax as my go-to build, so strong and relatively easy to execute). But I think Naruto gets overlooked because of Morrow and Bratok and even Demuslim (also mTw) taking much of the spotlight in the European scene. Plus, just like you said, Naruto keeps getting knocked out by Socke (who is a total beast). I saw those replays go up and thought, damn Socke is going to get rolled against Naruto, but it was the other way around.
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in case u missed out my plexa buddy, zealots sentries immo was the most famous build back in beta phase 1. what is wrong with it in phase 2 and the current situation is (are):
1/marines heavy: combatshield + stim with more than 1 control group is good enough to counter this build, you simply run the marines in, split then into 2 groups left and right so FF and zealots becomes useless and stim up. there might be 1 or 2 marauders but mostly marines will screw you over.
2/ air tech: robo tech has a huge giant ass hard counter which is air tech. for sure you got your obs to scout what he is doing but with the mobility of medivac and marauder sniping buildings? your immortal wont be able to do anything except tanky your nature while your main is getting wiped out by 4 marauders....
3/ refreshing army: immotral unlike wrap tech takes lots of time to produced. b4 you have 2 or 3, 1 immortal cant do anything no matter how much wrap tech unit you have. veteran Terran i have played with is push b4 you get your 2nd immo out (also the timing b4 the fastest colossi got out). What happen is that they will do their best to stim and snipe the immortal and using racks macro to out produce you. Surprise how slow immortal production is compare to infantry units.
=> the build is definitely viable but should only be used vs some certain Terran build, otherwise dont use it!
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I like how more insightful strategy discussion is going on in blogs than in the actual strategy forum...
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On September 11 2010 14:21 Saracen wrote:I like how more insightful strategy discussion is going on in blogs than in the actual strategy forum...
haha yeah, not surprising though
I feel like fewer of the sc2 gold league players check blogs.
edit: just a feeling...<3
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On September 11 2010 15:14 Dog22 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2010 14:21 Saracen wrote:I like how more insightful strategy discussion is going on in blogs than in the actual strategy forum... haha yeah, not surprising though I feel like fewer of the sc2 gold league players check blogs. edit: just a feeling...<3
Oh, it's more than a feeling...
+ Show Spoiler +When I hear that old song they used to playyyyyy + Show Spoiler +I begin dreaminnnnnnnn' 'Til I see Marianne walk awayyyyyyyyy
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On September 11 2010 15:27 Saracen wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2010 15:14 Dog22 wrote:On September 11 2010 14:21 Saracen wrote:I like how more insightful strategy discussion is going on in blogs than in the actual strategy forum... haha yeah, not surprising though I feel like fewer of the sc2 gold league players check blogs. edit: just a feeling...<3 Oh, it's more than a feeling... + Show Spoiler +When I hear that old song they used to playyyyyy + Show Spoiler +I begin dreaminnnnnnnn' 'Til I see Marianne walk awayyyyyyyyy
love that song haven't heard it in a while, thanks saracen
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wow I was actually thinking about this composition about a week ago, but because I'm not a very active player, I didn't get around to trying it out. Nice to see it does in fact work; can't wait to try it out.
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On September 11 2010 14:21 Saracen wrote:I like how more insightful strategy discussion is going on in blogs than in the actual strategy forum...
Tell me about it. I just find it so backwards that more visible effort goes into most of the blog posts than anything seen on the SC2 forums. Until there's some kind of crackdown and TL stops letting every player and their dog post their hair-brained ideas on how to "fix" StarCraft 2, I'm not even gonna bother with that entire subsection. Finding the half decent posts between the 30 TvX imba and "Zerglings should be able to jump up cliffs!" topics is too much of a slog.
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infinity21
Canada6683 Posts
ooh I thought the post would be in strategy but it was hiding in here!
If you guys want to see the games from my perspective, you can find it here
I tried to stick with MMM and tweak it in small ways but not mess with it a whole lot.
I think adding in ghosts would be a good response against plexa's composition (probably the only available to me). The hardest thing for me was watching my army at all times because plexa would just walk up to it and trap it with FF. If I had a stronger army at the time, great, if not, I lose.
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On September 11 2010 17:26 infinity21 wrote:ooh I thought the post would be in strategy but it was hiding in here! If you guys want to see the games from my perspective, you can find it hereI tried to stick with MMM and tweak it in small ways but not mess with it a whole lot. I think adding in ghosts would be a good response against plexa's composition (probably the only available to me). The hardest thing for me was watching my army at all times because plexa would just walk up to it and trap it with FF. If I had a stronger army at the time, great, if not, I lose.
thx
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
Moved to strategy, hope that wasn't a dumb move on my part
On September 11 2010 01:40 NB wrote:
in case u missed out my plexa buddy, zealots sentries immo was the most famous build back in beta phase 1. what is wrong with it in phase 2 and the current situation is (are):
1/marines heavy: combatshield + stim with more than 1 control group is good enough to counter this build, you simply run the marines in, split then into 2 groups left and right so FF and zealots becomes useless and stim up. there might be 1 or 2 marauders but mostly marines will screw you over.
2/ air tech: robo tech has a huge giant ass hard counter which is air tech. for sure you got your obs to scout what he is doing but with the mobility of medivac and marauder sniping buildings? your immortal wont be able to do anything except tanky your nature while your main is getting wiped out by 4 marauders....
3/ refreshing army: immotral unlike wrap tech takes lots of time to produced. b4 you have 2 or 3, 1 immortal cant do anything no matter how much wrap tech unit you have. veteran Terran i have played with is push b4 you get your 2nd immo out (also the timing b4 the fastest colossi got out). What happen is that they will do their best to stim and snipe the immortal and using racks macro to out produce you. Surprise how slow immortal production is compare to infantry units.
=> the build is definitely viable but should only be used vs some certain Terran build, otherwise dont use it! I agree with this mostly, 3. is an illusion created by the warpgate mechanic 1&2 are valid. I still want to try it against other strategies - like marine/ghost etc - and see if its a hard counter, or just a soft counter (or if its an even fight), and try things like adding a stargate against banshee heavy play (and see how phoenix/zeal/sentry/1-2 immo go). But any unit composition that relies heavily on marauders or tanks should get eaten by this.
Also keep in mind the original game transitioned out of this composition really early on and moved into Colossus/Stalker/Sentry - which (I'm sure you'll agree) completely eats Marine heavy strategies (except perhaps banshee/marine... dno about that one yet ). So if you come into this build with the mindset to be flexible, and react to what the Terran is doing, then I'm 99% sure you'll be fine.
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LOVE it! Finally someone officially trying/writing up the fast imm/zealot build vs T. I've been trying to perfect it as well and i believe you got it figured out with the sentries! I had never though about adding sentries, i was just pure chargelot/immortal. Thanks for the awesome writeup!
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I've been playing PvT zealot/immortal/high templar for a while now. Basically your goal as Protoss should be to NEVER build a single stalker ever. They're making Banshees? Build a few stalkers to be safe while your stargate builds and you get a few phoenixes? They're building marauders? Build immortals-- sure, they're not great versus marauders, but they're better than craptastic stalkers, etc. maintain a +1 attack advantage to make them even better.
I gate/robo/obs (FE if they 1-1-1 or... against pretty much everything that isnt hyper-aggressive), twilight council, add more gates, fast charge, then HTs. If I lose obs I throw down enough stalkers to deal with a banshee threat. I never seem to lose in straight fights and all my recent losses have been to intense Terran drops.
But yeah early game I zealot/sentry/couple immortals into expo. Fast charge is great you just need to force them, as best as you can, into a situation where kiting is hard.
Once you get blink this changes a tiny bit, but not really. Stalkers are just garbagetastic unless you can blink like kiwikaki.
I've also been desperately trying a phoenix opening that maintains aerial superiority (versus vikings somewhat not-cost effectively) into an FE into a zealot (hopefully with charge) collosi/phoenix push.
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My TvP build would own this
So yes it's viable, if they go marauders
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what if he goes 1/1/1 because each time he went bio ball instead of factory/starport units.
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Very nice build. Consider incorporating a quick +1 armor upgrade into the build to better hedge your strategy against marine-heavy compositions.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On September 12 2010 01:05 Apexplayer wrote:
My TvP build would own this
So yes it's viable, if they go marauders Thanks for contributing to the discussion.
On September 12 2010 01:15 ionlyplayPROtoss wrote:
what if he goes 1/1/1 because each time he went bio ball instead of factory/starport units. 1-1-1 into tank/raven isn't an issue for this, zeals eat rines, immortals eat tanks, sentries lol at ravens but anyway, you get the idea. 1-1-1 into banshee would be annoying, I'm thinking that mixing in phoenix is the best idea but I'm not sure. Like I said, if you scout banshee you can easily transition out of this unit composition to react in the way you know best - but this composition means you won't die to a quick marauder push or any kind of 3rax mumbojumbo.
On September 12 2010 01:28 xDaunt wrote:
Very nice build. Consider incorporating a quick +1 armor upgrade into the build to better hedge your strategy against marine-heavy compositions. I would still prefer +1 weaps since it makes a big difference on the sentries (kills marines in one less shot for instance), and +1 amour doesn't help with the shields
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
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hasuobs is using it against demuslim right now...looks pretty good
edit: damn :D
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
And Hasu fell into the exact same trap that I did in game 1 against infinity irony!
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With all those sentries I'd love to see at least one guardian shield up :D
i watched the last one since you recommended it and it was a good game strat seems pretty solid even with some mistakes (i'd have plenty more im sure) it still worked out well.
i loved the hidden expo at bottom really saved you there
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I tried this strat against a stalker heavy Toss today and it worked great against that too
the only downside is being able to blink out of the FF
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Could someone change this thread's title? Took me a while to refind this thread as searching for Is It Viable to find sentry zealot immortal discussions is sort of unintuitive.
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sorry for the bump, but I think more people need to read this. I see posts all the time about dealing with MMM as toss.
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@Plexa : I'd like to know why you're telling us Colossi aren't viable vs T when i see a lot of Koreans make Colossi and no HT vs T. I know it isnt the purpose of this post but i'd like to know your opinion on that matter.
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