|
When you dont see an addon on the terran rax it means he is teching, prepare for mech/air.
|
Damn I feel so much reag in these post.
I know how it's soooo frustrating to go in a base , scout correctly and don't find out wth your opponent is going for.
Anyways diamond pieces of information
Thank you very much
|
If you scout 4+ toss gates but see no stalkers or zealots, tech to missile towers or ravens in case of dark templar. Just a few of these can be gg in early game if you don't have some kind of detector up. You can generally squeeze in an engineering bay and missile turret in without affecting your unit producing too much anyway, so it's worth the 450 mineral to get eng. bay a missile turret at your wall, and a missile turret at your mineral lines. I do this on top of my 4 raks cause I'll be upgrading infantry units anyway. For other terran builds (1-1-1 for example), raven is more viable, flexible, and re-useable/multi-purposed. Especially against toss, a raven prevents dark zealots and can cripple battles against stalkers if the opponent doesn't micro properly and retreat from the sentry drone.
|
This thread is.. kind of amazing. Thanks to everyone contributing; it really helps newbies like me to get a general idea of reactionary gameplay and develop some game sense.
|
|
|
Any tips for fighting an FE Protoss? Especially on large maps
|
On September 10 2010 12:03 VERMM wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2010 18:44 iaguz wrote:+ Show Spoiler +OK, 1200-ish Terran player on the SEA.
IF YOU SEE...
TvT
In tvt, your second 50-energy should scan the opponent's base to see what's going on. There are a set of assumptions you can make from this incredibly important scan:
Is he going 1-1-1? the timing of this scan will occur when the starport is going up and you should see the factory and the barracks. If you keep your SCV in their base for a very long time you'll see where the factory is and you can safely assume the port is next to it for techlab/reactor switching.
If you see a reactor = tank/viking. Counter by either tank/viking-ing better (possibly) or mercilessly spam the shit out of infantry and push hard and expand hard. Vikings are incredibly important in the tank vs tank wars and air control but it is very common for people to overbuild vikings which doesn't do shit against infantry. Your own tanks can help hold expansions from viking pokes so your ifnantry can contest map control like nuts.
IF you see a tech lab = could be anything really. Banshee, cloaked or no, or siege tanks + medivacs/vikings, regular gretorp build. Just continue with your opening and ensure part of your opening takes care of cloaked.
If you do NOT see the 1-1-1 then it means a bio build. Either some sort of cheese or a fast expand. Punish with careful tank/marine pushes (alternatively you can use a banshee to harass but their build requires an ebay for turrets specifically for the banshee. The Gretorp build hard counters this too, at least it SHOULD. This is not a strong build imo, but it might just happen.
There's not much else to 'detect' in tvt. Tank Viking is very powerful but has many weaknesses in terms of postioning weaknesses, vulnerability to very sneaky drops, slow pushing and potential viking waste. It does require you to have loads of tanks to effeectively crush large infantry groups, but it is still very strong! Personally I don't bother but you know.
A few tanks help greatly against infantry masses, but not as the basis of your strategy, and PDD is ZOMGWTFBBQ good (but only if you can keep it alive in the first place ><)
My recent TvT adventures have had me losing air superiority, thinking "ah fuck it" and spamming tons of infantry and playing aggressively and expansively. Been working so far, with a few big holes here and there.
Anyway...
TvZ
If you see 14 gas/14 pool this is standard. He is going to tech speed and expand. Whatever build you play should work fine, unless it's a "I hope he hatch firsts cheese lol!"
If your scouting reaper/hellion does NOT see an expansion = either one base tech or baenlings. if you cannot see what is going on then use a scan! IT'S IMPORTANT! If it's banelings then you HAVE to slap down bunkers and prepare. If it's one abse muta tech then your turret timing has to be faster then normal. If it's neither then he has a hidden, go find it and kill it!
From there not a lot you need to find and think about. Just keep a unit or two around to find his third and time your push around when he takes it. You don't need to spot the spire, just slap down turrets anyway (instead of scanning. Scanning is risky and costs mules, ie, minerals. Just slap down 4-6 turrets. Costs the same and gets rid of muta threat.)
TvP
This is my worst matchup. Reading protoss players is tooooooough. BUT...
If you spot 1 gas for long it means either 4warpgates OR 1 gate FE macro style. Considering how huge the difference between these builds are you HAVE to find out, so keep a unit ready for it.
If you spot 2 gas, could be anything! Throw a scan/reaper and try and spot the gateway/robo facility count. If it's robo, it's standard play. If it's not, then it's proxy something. Wall off your base in case of DT's and save a scan (or just prepare your detection anyway). If it's void rays, well, your build shoudl have plenty of marines to counter that anyway! Try and move around and spot the proxy if it's there. A reaper or an SCV is very useful for this.
The appropriate counters for you are...
1/2 gate robo/gate = safe time to expand quickly. Slap down bunkers as well. Try and trick the protoss with some aggressive movements. If you can threaten his main AND get your expansion started well before he does and then pull back WITHOUT fighting then you're going great. Just get your tech up ASAFP, get the bunkers up and macro hard. Avoid pushing out until your 2 bases really kick in.
4 warpgates = one or two bunkers. Mass up units and tech and hold out his attack. If he doesn't attack this is a really weird situation. I think against pure zealot/stalker/sentry then pure marauder/marine/medivac SHOULD thrash it good. If you can sneak out a banshee (with cloak for kicks!) then you can kill lots of probes and try and spot his transition. If he attacks, hold it off, expand and just sit back and macro until you win.
proxy dt's. Detect them, counter them, safely expand and GET GHOSTS ASAP. The transition from DT tech is HT tech, and it comes very quick because he's already got his twilight council out. So get some ghosts and EMP the ht BEFORE they storm your army.
Stargate harass. Loads of marines should be part of your build, so just keep them around. Also, position your buildings so the only way to get void rays in requires them to go very deep into your base. Thsi means when you stim your marines to get the voidrays the FUCK out, hopefully the voids do not escape. If he goes phoenxies then don't get starport units for a while (just gonna get eaten up by phoenix) try and deal wit hthe harass as best you can and follow your gameplan. Lots of marines are a given early on, so do that. Tanks are goign to get lifted, so don't have them as part of your plan either until the phoenixes go away. Some pure MMM+ ghost should be good, and if you get a solid amount of vikings out. Show nested quote +If you spot 1 gas for long it means either 4warpgates OR 1 gate FE macro style. Considering how huge the difference between these builds are you HAVE to find out, so keep a unit ready for it. First off thank you so much for your post. It has helped me a lot. But I am a bit confused on what to do versus a Protoss who Fast Expands. I realize on a short distance map I can pressure hard with a 3-rax stim timing push that lands around 9 minute, a very weak window for a FE protoss. But on a large map, with long walking distance, what can I do in TvP? Let's assume that the protoss lets me know he is going to FE before the game. What would be the best response? I'm assuming FE myself? Well let's say that's not an option because I'd be FE after him as a response. So what do I do? 1 base heavy mech play? Do I just normally expand? should I contain? More specifically I have no clue what build to use or what unit composition to get versus a FE Protoss on a large map. Can you help me out? The koreans say PvT is imbalanced (not as much as TvZ obv), and I can definitely agree TvP is my hardest match-up. Any tips would be great. But again I need to stress on the large maps, they are the biggest problem. But any tips in general even for small maps would be nice versus a FE protoss
There are many ways to abuse a fast expanding P. My preference and probably just a style, is to do anything but expand, especially if i scout it late. later expos generally don't sit well with me, in any match up.
Some options are banshee harrass, with or without cloak. This can at the very least make an opponent waste a ton of resources into cannons, nullifying the fast expand advantage. Any sort of 2-3 rax medivac drop abuse could work too since you will have then on unit count, and should have them on unit position aka drop in the open out of the way of their cannon investment. Another strategy which is a little more micro intensive is a seige tank push, but with the patch coming out not sure how well the tanks will be doing against buildings. This could be good on maps where you can shell into the nat very easily with or without drop ships, such as steppes of war, kulas revinve or lt.
|
On September 10 2010 12:09 zomgtossrush wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2010 12:03 VERMM wrote:On September 09 2010 18:44 iaguz wrote:+ Show Spoiler +OK, 1200-ish Terran player on the SEA.
IF YOU SEE...
TvT
In tvt, your second 50-energy should scan the opponent's base to see what's going on. There are a set of assumptions you can make from this incredibly important scan:
Is he going 1-1-1? the timing of this scan will occur when the starport is going up and you should see the factory and the barracks. If you keep your SCV in their base for a very long time you'll see where the factory is and you can safely assume the port is next to it for techlab/reactor switching.
If you see a reactor = tank/viking. Counter by either tank/viking-ing better (possibly) or mercilessly spam the shit out of infantry and push hard and expand hard. Vikings are incredibly important in the tank vs tank wars and air control but it is very common for people to overbuild vikings which doesn't do shit against infantry. Your own tanks can help hold expansions from viking pokes so your ifnantry can contest map control like nuts.
IF you see a tech lab = could be anything really. Banshee, cloaked or no, or siege tanks + medivacs/vikings, regular gretorp build. Just continue with your opening and ensure part of your opening takes care of cloaked.
If you do NOT see the 1-1-1 then it means a bio build. Either some sort of cheese or a fast expand. Punish with careful tank/marine pushes (alternatively you can use a banshee to harass but their build requires an ebay for turrets specifically for the banshee. The Gretorp build hard counters this too, at least it SHOULD. This is not a strong build imo, but it might just happen.
There's not much else to 'detect' in tvt. Tank Viking is very powerful but has many weaknesses in terms of postioning weaknesses, vulnerability to very sneaky drops, slow pushing and potential viking waste. It does require you to have loads of tanks to effeectively crush large infantry groups, but it is still very strong! Personally I don't bother but you know.
A few tanks help greatly against infantry masses, but not as the basis of your strategy, and PDD is ZOMGWTFBBQ good (but only if you can keep it alive in the first place ><)
My recent TvT adventures have had me losing air superiority, thinking "ah fuck it" and spamming tons of infantry and playing aggressively and expansively. Been working so far, with a few big holes here and there.
Anyway...
TvZ
If you see 14 gas/14 pool this is standard. He is going to tech speed and expand. Whatever build you play should work fine, unless it's a "I hope he hatch firsts cheese lol!"
If your scouting reaper/hellion does NOT see an expansion = either one base tech or baenlings. if you cannot see what is going on then use a scan! IT'S IMPORTANT! If it's banelings then you HAVE to slap down bunkers and prepare. If it's one abse muta tech then your turret timing has to be faster then normal. If it's neither then he has a hidden, go find it and kill it!
From there not a lot you need to find and think about. Just keep a unit or two around to find his third and time your push around when he takes it. You don't need to spot the spire, just slap down turrets anyway (instead of scanning. Scanning is risky and costs mules, ie, minerals. Just slap down 4-6 turrets. Costs the same and gets rid of muta threat.)
TvP
This is my worst matchup. Reading protoss players is tooooooough. BUT...
If you spot 1 gas for long it means either 4warpgates OR 1 gate FE macro style. Considering how huge the difference between these builds are you HAVE to find out, so keep a unit ready for it.
If you spot 2 gas, could be anything! Throw a scan/reaper and try and spot the gateway/robo facility count. If it's robo, it's standard play. If it's not, then it's proxy something. Wall off your base in case of DT's and save a scan (or just prepare your detection anyway). If it's void rays, well, your build shoudl have plenty of marines to counter that anyway! Try and move around and spot the proxy if it's there. A reaper or an SCV is very useful for this.
The appropriate counters for you are...
1/2 gate robo/gate = safe time to expand quickly. Slap down bunkers as well. Try and trick the protoss with some aggressive movements. If you can threaten his main AND get your expansion started well before he does and then pull back WITHOUT fighting then you're going great. Just get your tech up ASAFP, get the bunkers up and macro hard. Avoid pushing out until your 2 bases really kick in.
4 warpgates = one or two bunkers. Mass up units and tech and hold out his attack. If he doesn't attack this is a really weird situation. I think against pure zealot/stalker/sentry then pure marauder/marine/medivac SHOULD thrash it good. If you can sneak out a banshee (with cloak for kicks!) then you can kill lots of probes and try and spot his transition. If he attacks, hold it off, expand and just sit back and macro until you win.
proxy dt's. Detect them, counter them, safely expand and GET GHOSTS ASAP. The transition from DT tech is HT tech, and it comes very quick because he's already got his twilight council out. So get some ghosts and EMP the ht BEFORE they storm your army.
Stargate harass. Loads of marines should be part of your build, so just keep them around. Also, position your buildings so the only way to get void rays in requires them to go very deep into your base. Thsi means when you stim your marines to get the voidrays the FUCK out, hopefully the voids do not escape. If he goes phoenxies then don't get starport units for a while (just gonna get eaten up by phoenix) try and deal wit hthe harass as best you can and follow your gameplan. Lots of marines are a given early on, so do that. Tanks are goign to get lifted, so don't have them as part of your plan either until the phoenixes go away. Some pure MMM+ ghost should be good, and if you get a solid amount of vikings out. If you spot 1 gas for long it means either 4warpgates OR 1 gate FE macro style. Considering how huge the difference between these builds are you HAVE to find out, so keep a unit ready for it. First off thank you so much for your post. It has helped me a lot. But I am a bit confused on what to do versus a Protoss who Fast Expands. I realize on a short distance map I can pressure hard with a 3-rax stim timing push that lands around 9 minute, a very weak window for a FE protoss. But on a large map, with long walking distance, what can I do in TvP? Let's assume that the protoss lets me know he is going to FE before the game. What would be the best response? I'm assuming FE myself? Well let's say that's not an option because I'd be FE after him as a response. So what do I do? 1 base heavy mech play? Do I just normally expand? should I contain? More specifically I have no clue what build to use or what unit composition to get versus a FE Protoss on a large map. Can you help me out? The koreans say PvT is imbalanced (not as much as TvZ obv), and I can definitely agree TvP is my hardest match-up. Any tips would be great. But again I need to stress on the large maps, they are the biggest problem. But any tips in general even for small maps would be nice versus a FE protoss There are many ways to abuse a fast expanding P. My preference and probably just a style, is to do anything but expand, especially if i scout it late. later expos generally don't sit well with me, in any match up. Some options are banshee harrass, with or without cloak. This can at the very least make an opponent waste a ton of resources into cannons, nullifying the fast expand advantage. Any sort of 2-3 rax medivac drop abuse could work too since you will have then on unit count, and should have them on unit position aka drop in the open out of the way of their cannon investment. Another strategy which is a little more micro intensive is a seige tank push, but with the patch coming out not sure how well the tanks will be doing against buildings. This could be good on maps where you can shell into the nat very easily with or without drop ships, such as steppes of war, kulas revinve or lt.
Could you take a look at this thread?
kcdc's PvT FE
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=142887¤tpage=All
It's very long thread full of testing and theorycrafting. kcdc seems to be confident that fast cloaked banshees are easily beat as he always gets a robo. When I say PvT FE I really mean those who follow this style. FE with a Robo. It seems that the standard is to get robo for that observer otherwise the Protoss autoloses from lack of information.
Build wise are you leaning towards a 1/1/1 opening or 2-3+ rax? People have been liking going marine/raven/banshee with a bit of hellions and it seems to be great but those say fast HT to feedback the PDD/Bansee/Raven will beat this. And that's without storm.
Thanks for the info though. I think I'll try some more aggressive styles vs FE on large maps
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
