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truckerdaves
United States66 Posts
And xDaunt, i realize that you think putting in a build order other than the basic 9 pylon 12 gate 14 gate 16 pylon 16 zealot 18 pylon, you could be a little more specific? i am only asking because i would find it hard to be able to tightly put together this strategy in certain situations that i am not a good enough player to understand. For example, i dont understand how someone can have so much gas accumulated that they can get charge (200 gas) and DT shrine (250 gas) on a whim. | ||
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Jayrod
1820 Posts
I also skip the DT step altogether as its a huge gas sink and feels unnecessary. I'm sure they would be nice in some games, and I have gotten them, but usually its after ive gotten my HT's rolling because they are the hardest unit for hydra zerg to deal with. DTs are good mid-late for map control. I haven't really seen too many spore crawlers at all though in response to phoenix, I think maybe 1 game out of all the zergs ive played last week I saw spore crawlers in response to phoenix. What I have seen as a typical response is either making alot of extra queens (same response you get from a void ray opener) or a quick tech to hydras (which is what you wanted them to do in the first place). I think there are too many variables in a given game to provide strategies beyond just a nice opener, but I will say that my PvZ games normally all look the same, but with some players dealing with the harass better than others. Phoenix leads to hydra OR causes them to send all their roaches to your front (this is surprisingly common for them to go blind roaches, though I wouldnt count on that after next patch when 2gating will be less damaging other than making them produce units and not drones). My response to hydras is normally high templar but you can go collossuss as well, but either way you need to stop pumping phoenix's to get additional tech (I normally stop at 5 max, but try to make sure I have at least 4 at all times). I just think its really important to maintain a strong gateway army while doing all of this and to have some sentries for forcefields. You may need to FF your ramp when they send roaches early on and you have food tied up in phoenix. Even in an open field FF shits on roaches. | ||
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junemermaid
United States981 Posts
I haven't had much success with phoenix in mid / late game just because of the infestor. Fungal Growth + hydras (or even queens) ruins your fun. | ||
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xDaunt
United States17988 Posts
On September 02 2010 01:39 truckerdaves wrote: And xDaunt, i realize that you think putting in a build order other than the basic 9 pylon 12 gate 14 gate 16 pylon 16 zealot 18 pylon, you could be a little more specific? i am only asking because i would find it hard to be able to tightly put together this strategy in certain situations that i am not a good enough player to understand. For example, i dont understand how someone can have so much gas accumulated that they can get charge (200 gas) and DT shrine (250 gas) on a whim. It's hard offering a specific build order beyond what I offered because of how dynamic PvZ is after the first 5 minutes of the game. As for the gas to get charge and the dark shrine almost simultaneously, that comes from cutting gas expenditures after you produce your first phoenix. You should be on 4 geysers by that point, so during that 60-90 second period in which you build your first phoenix and scout the zerg, you should be able to accumulate plenty of gas to either start charge and the shrine or lay down a second stargate to pump phoenixes. | ||
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indczn
United States18 Posts
I just never figured out how to transition properly from one thing to the other and haven't refined anything like you have. | ||
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Brutus
Netherlands284 Posts
Although, dt drops and overseer/overlord killing is about the most annoying thing you can do as protoss, and it makes me (without high apm) sad because I start to make more mistakes (queen larva etc.) | ||
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Chronopolis
Canada1484 Posts
Especially dangerous is during the lategame battles with ultralisks...If the opponent even gets an overseer out for a short while (5 seconds) all the dts will melt to splash damage. While your unit compisition may stop a zerg from ultra/ling 'ing , it does a little less well against the popular hydra ultralisk composition. However I do agree that this build offers incredible oppurtunity for harrassment, similiar to how WhiteRa warp prism harrasses in almost every pvt game. Second is the gas cost, but I have a suspiscion gas is only an issue if you are forced to one base tech AND make gas units. I'm going to watch the replays next, got good hopes for this. Oh yes, and...props for not naming the build after your self ^^ | ||
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xDaunt
United States17988 Posts
On September 02 2010 01:59 Brutus wrote: I think the counter to this, without getting too cute with mass queens etc. are spore cawlers. Get those spores at all your expos for the phoenix and dts, and keep the overseers over your army instead of at the expansions. I think the typical roach/hydra ball, with the focus on roaaches into tier 3 is best. Although, dt drops and overseer/overlord killing is about the most annoying thing you can do as protoss, and it makes me (without high apm) sad because I start to make more mistakes (queen larva etc.) Yeah, I typically see spore crawlers all over the zerg bases as soon as the phoenixes show up. This makes DT harassment ineffective. However, keeping a lot of overseers alive over your army is much easier said than done. First of all, feedback has a long range. Second, if you're busy microing your overseers away from attacking phoenixes and stalkers, you're probably not microing your hydralisks and roaches out of psi storm. It's a very difficult balancing act. | ||
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Unosnow
Burkina Faso96 Posts
***EDIT**** SHIT! triple post! i think i hit quote when i ment to press edit!!! DOH! so sorry lmfao ! sorry kinda new to this forum and first time i used once of these ** [ ** /img ** ] type replays [/img] ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-145013.jpg) [img] | ||
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Unosnow
Burkina Faso96 Posts
 **********************************************repaly at bottom*************************************************** This is my first time exacuting this strategy in PvZ. My play was extreemly poor, as i was fumbling around ALOT but... My initial push was ownd by a bunch of zerglings and a queen, i assume he was on his was to plop downa expo since a drone was with him. i lost 6 zealots to kill a queen  Then he had constant pressure on my with roaches and zerglings but i was able to out micro him but at the cost of tech-macro. After this i was able to safely put down a expo, (the key to this was the 2gate into forge into stargate.) i plopped down my expo and this is where i started to fumble. i couldnt really remember what i was doing and trying to avoid my usual habits of roboitcs threw me off alot. However once i got some pheniox's out i was able to harass and suply block him 2 or 3 times. his muta's killed about 13 of my probes, i then warped in a large army and with about 4 pheniox's i went for a attack because i knew i must be at least 10+ probes behind in econ so i knew i had to end it now or it would be a strugle. I attacked and got off 2 forcefeilds and that basically caused his zerglin army to split in half and just walked into my DTs blades and they just sliced them to peices while the pheniox's killed off his Muta's. I think this is a perfect example of how powerfull this build is. Muta-ling is my toughest match and this fella went fast roach into muta-ling and even though i fumbled horibly and forgot macro due to being green to this strat i still pulled out the win due to the sheer power of this build.. On September 02 2010 02:27 Unosnow wrote: [/img][img] | ||
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Unosnow
Burkina Faso96 Posts
sorry about that***EDIT**** SHIT! triple post! i think i hit quote when i ment to press edit!!! DOH! so sorry lmfao ! sorry kinda new to this forum and first time i used once of these ** [ ** /img ** ] type replays On September 02 2010 02:27 Unosnow wrote: [/img][img] | ||
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Bair
United States698 Posts
Firstly, vs the kind of ground army you describe, banelings do terrible terrible damage. And for such a gas heavy army (stalker for 50, sentry for 100, dt for 125 I think) with so many light units (zealot, sentry, dt), you won't have the number of sentries you need while still having a healthy number of real combat units. Add in burrow (to wait out forcefields) and the gas-friendly roach, and before you have HT, there is no reliable way to deal with this force. Using the methods you describe. 2 gate can be hard to deal with, but 2 gate is not guarenteed vs an FE. The second issue is phoenix are great units for harass and against muta, but can't do a thing to corruptors. I usually go ling/muta in ZvP, and if they go blind stargate, I just go roach/corruptor and laugh since you need roughly 2 phoenix to kill 1 corruptor. This means in your uber gas heavy build you have to double my gas investment to win the air battle, and if you do you lose the ground battle. Third issue is rather minor since this is my personal taste. When my lair morphs, first thing I do is drop 100 gas for an overseer, both for scouting (usually scout a stargate before the first phoenix is out) and detection for observer hunting. As more zerg start doing this due to the prevalence of robo builds, DT harass becomes more difficult. Just my 2 cents as a zerg player. | ||
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xDaunt
United States17988 Posts
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ZXRP
South Africa114 Posts
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kandalf
12 Posts
On September 02 2010 03:10 ZXRP wrote: I have a stupid question, but do spore crawlers retain their detector status once uprooted? If so, it is problematic for fairly obvious reasons. Only thing might be that they are a touch slow without creep. They do not. This build looks really awesome and fun. I've been looking for a good plan for PvZ (my worst MU by far), and I'll give this a go tonight. The issue in my mind are spore crawlers, as previously mentioned. The zerg could just expand all over the map with spore crawlers at each base. The proper response is probably to abandon DTs except for defending any mid-game push, and try to pump out a large zealot/stalker/HT army. I guess it comes down to whether or not you've invested in too many DTs... Edit: maybe blink stalkers for sniping spore crawlers? | ||
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Bair
United States698 Posts
On September 02 2010 03:04 xDaunt wrote: Here's one thing that I want to point out to those thinking that the zerg can hard counter this build by going roaches, banelings, corruptors, or any mixture of the three. What you're doing is not a hard counter to the build. At best, you're putting yourself on even footing with the protoss player by unlocking techs that can allow you to counter whatever force composition that the protoss eventually assembles. What makes this build so strong is its flexibility. When the initial phoenix flies over the zerg base, the protoss won't have committed heavily to any tech path or unit composition at that point. If the protoss sees roaches and banelings, he could very easily skip charge and get blink stalker/sentry instead. This is mostly correct. Roach/baneling/corruptor is a soft counter to this build, and protoss have no comitted to any particular tech, but the beauty of it is that roach/corruptor is still strong against most toss compositions and zerg has not comitted to any particular tech either. Corruptors shut down colossi (and can usually take colossi out before they die to stalkers), roaches are a good all around unit for any composition while allowing agressive play the slower hydra does not, and banelings are a vasty underused unit against P (though not completely without reason). Mix in some infestors (at the cost of cutting banelings if needed) and let the fun begin! This strategy seems to rely on a complete denial of scouting which is unrealistic since zerg has the best scouting in the game, and the assumption that the zerg will primarily mass one unit (hydra or muta, which is true of many zergs) without an attempt in unit diversity. In short, my issue with this build is that it seems the primary merit behind it is it gets wins through the zerg player's lack of skill, not because it is a overly strong PvZ build (though I will not deny it is solid). | ||
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Unosnow
Burkina Faso96 Posts
On September 02 2010 03:43 Bair wrote: This is mostly correct. Roach/baneling/corruptor is a soft counter to this build, and protoss have no comitted to any particular tech, but the beauty of it is that roach/corruptor is still strong against most toss compositions and zerg has not comitted to any particular tech either. Corruptors shut down colossi (and can usually take colossi out before they die to stalkers), roaches are a good all around unit for any composition while allowing agressive play the slower hydra does not, and banelings are a vasty underused unit against P (though not completely without reason). Mix in some infestors (at the cost of cutting banelings if needed) and let the fun begin! This strategy seems to rely on a complete denial of scouting which is unrealistic since zerg has the best scouting in the game, and the assumption that the zerg will primarily mass one unit (hydra or muta, which is true of many zergs) without an attempt in unit diversity. In short, my issue with this build is that it seems the primary merit behind it is it gets wins through the zerg player's lack of skill, not because it is a overly strong PvZ build (though I will not deny it is solid). Well i think that your forgetting if you decide to go bane/ling/roach the protoss already has the VR tech tree open, mixxing in a few VRs to this army, while scouting with a pheniox can then allow you to go HT over DT. I guess this is just theory but i think the point of this build is how flexible it is while it also allows for maximum harassment and pressure vs the zerg. this will usually cause the zerg to focus more on his army then his econmy leaving him with less drones (every replay i watched and every game i played left the zerg with less drones then the protoss had probes) this fact alone leaves the protoss in a position where he can out econ, leading to faster tech changes. and due to the already flexable build of this strategy a fast tech switch with a stronger econ will leave the zerg devistated. | ||
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coltrane
Chile988 Posts
On September 01 2010 20:11 Plexa wrote: I don't think much of the early game stuff your outlining is very good, or near optimal but I'll leave that alone because I think the unit composition you outlined in your FAQ is pretty exciting. I don't think you really need to open anything special to get to that point since you need twilight council for upgrades so you're going to have access to templar tech if you want it (and you always need something to transition into if he wins the corruptor/colossus war). You know what you are talking about though, everything you outlined in the spoilers etc is all correct up to my own understanding. I suppose the difference in opinion over the earlygame stuff is mostly due to stylistic differences between us, so I hope that doesn't bother you too much. But anyway, using feedback on overseers is pretty clever, definitely going to have to try this out! One thing worth noting is that DTs can kill lairs really quickly and if the opponent doesn't have a lair - he can't rebuild detection. I had a friend lose a game to a mothership recall (which sniped his hive/pool) and mass DT because he couldn't rebuild his overseers once they died. As I said before, I was playing something very similar, and I have a completely different aproach to tier 1. I love to play in an economic style, so I am pretty good at defending with little or no units at all, thats why I force myself to play 1 gate core against zerg. for transitioning into 2 wgate agression. My transition timer is, no doubt, the forge. If its posible (depends on the zerg, actually) I will get my forge after my core, and try to expand with the wgate upgrade. The forge gets chroned in way to have my TC just in time when +1 ground finish. After +2 start dark shrine is my priority. When +2 finishes, if everything is going fine, I will add ht to the mix, and start +3 and +1 shield in a second forge. | ||
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Bair
United States698 Posts
On September 02 2010 04:05 Unosnow wrote: Well i think that your forgetting if you decide to go bane/ling/roach the protoss already has the VR tech tree open, mixxing in a few VRs to this army, while scouting with a pheniox can then allow you to go HT over DT. I guess this is just theory but i think the point of this build is how flexible it is while it also allows for maximum harassment and pressure vs the zerg. this will usually cause the zerg to focus more on his army then his econmy leaving him with less drones (every replay i watched and every game i played left the zerg with less drones then the protoss had probes) this fact alone leaves the protoss in a position where he can out econ, leading to faster tech changes. and due to the already flexable build of this strategy a fast tech switch with a stronger econ will leave the zerg devistated. This would crush roach/ling/bling, you are right, but is on even footing or disadvantaged against roach/corruptor with a few blings, which is a good base for any ZvP builds. The difficulty of scouting that zerg after he sees your stargate/first phoenix is compounded by the high cost of the army. And VR tech or not, corruptors do better than mutas do against void rays, and are about as cost effective as hydras while dealing with phoenixes better while still being a solid addition to the ZvP arsenal for reasons already stated. | ||
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xDaunt
United States17988 Posts
On September 02 2010 03:43 Bair wrote: Corruptors shut down colossi (and can usually take colossi out before they die to stalkers), roaches are a good all around unit for any composition while allowing agressive play the slower hydra does not, and banelings are a vasty underused unit against P (though not completely without reason). That's all well and good, but there generally are no colossi in the build. You won't even see a colossus in any of the replays. On September 02 2010 03:43 Bair wrote: This strategy seems to rely on a complete denial of scouting which is unrealistic since zerg has the best scouting in the game, and the assumption that the zerg will primarily mass one unit (hydra or muta, which is true of many zergs) without an attempt in unit diversity. Where in the world are you getting this stuff from? In most of the replays, the zerg knows exactly what I am doing before I do it and can't stop it. In none of the replays does the zerg mass one unit. I listed all of the principals on which this strategy relies, and those two certainly don't appear on the list. On September 02 2010 03:43 Bair wrote: In short, my issue with this build is that it seems the primary merit behind it is it gets wins through the zerg player's lack of skill, not because it is a overly strong PvZ build (though I will not deny it is solid). Yeah, whatever.... | ||
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