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On September 01 2010 20:40 mx99 wrote:
That's just theory, but what would you do if zerg would try to retake air control by throwing some corruptors ( amount similiar to phoenixes) into mix of his air units, phoenixes are pretty bad vs corruptors.
Corruptors usually die to feedback.
Very interesting and nasty strategy I must say. Very hard to handle and will definitely be played more once more P get aware of it.
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I just get back into SC2, and I see a guide like this. Very nice, xDaunt.
I would complain about the way you've talked about tier 1 and the early game, since there's a few topics you can cover about how the Zerg player sets up against 2-gate in the first ten minutes (ling to ling/bane, the transition period from ling to ling/muta, jumps to hydra, P building at nat for expo to force decisions on Zerg, etc). But I think I can intuit enough from what you've already said.
Will keep some of your info in mind.
Edit: Oh, for those of you with (valid) complaints about the viability of DTs in the front, keep in mind that there's nothing stopping you from hotkeying your DTs to one group and your other forces to another, continually teasing and moving back with the main force and leaving your DTs to soften up your opponent's forces. Often with off-creep units, you end up creating flanks on the fly as the enemy sifts through to get to your visible force. Just make sure to always have some force (HTs, stalkers, air units) a keystroke away to pop overseers before or during the battle.
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Can't wait to try this out! I'm so sick of 4 gate pushes against Zerg.
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I'm a zerg player and I'm wondering, what if I brought all of my overlords into the battle along with 2 overseers to prevent it from being sniped? I mean.. it's going to be hard to click on the overseers when theres 30 overlords surrounding it.
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Thank you for the feedback, everyone. Here are some thoughts on some of the issues that you've raised. I think we need to come up with a name for this build, because the name in the title is too clunky. How about the "Neo-Bisu build?"
Regarding the tier 1 discussion: I purposefully skimped on the tier 1 discussion. The guide is more about tier 2 and tier 3 transitions. Also, I'm not sure how tier 1 is going to work with the upcoming zealot nerf. 2-gating may be phased out in favor of FE builds.
Regarding roaches as a counter: I agree that roaches will do well against zealot-heavy compositions, and in the late-game replay that I included, I definitely had some issues with the roaches at first. However, I don't think that roaches will stop this build cold because the protoss only needs to include a few extra sentries, immortals, and/or void rays to incorporate some very hard counters to the roaches into his unit mix. The zerg is still going to be left with the fundamental problem of having to fight DTs without detection.
Regarding banelings as a counter: A friend of mine (who is a good zerg player) talked with me about this, and we agreed that banelings could do well if used properly. The splash can kill dark templar even if there is no detection. However, I don't think that this is necessarily a permanent solution for the zerg. A protoss can adjust by cutting back on zealots and increasing his stalker and sentry count. Again, the beauty of this build is that you can be very flexible. The only units that you will not have immediate access to are the colossus, carrier, and mothership.
Regarding corruptors: This is where I think that the build may run into problems. If the zerg pumps corruptors to retake air control, you're going to have a little more difficult sniping overseers. However, here's the problem for the zerg: if he dumps a lot of money into corruptors (which you can feedback as well btw) then he'll have less money to spend on roaches, hydralisks, and ultralisks, especially in the short term. So even if the zerg kills your phoenixes, you can still run him over with your superior ground army (I believe that this happens in one of the games on Xel'Naga caverns). That said, there was one game on Delta Quadrant that I lost where the zerg had a ton of money and built an army of ultralisks/corruptors/broodlords. I think that I could have handled it better by getting void rays (especially because I knew what he was doing the whole time and I had more money than he did for most of the game). Nevertheless, it's a very instructive loss. Here's the replay:
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-144977.jpg)
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@xDaunt - Thanks for answer. I will look at replay. I believe that putting reasonable amount of corruptors will give zerg ability to stay alive enough to get to third layer units, where the real strength of swarm is dreaming, and retake at least some air control to expand safetly and deffend. Corruptors are slow so you can stil abuse mobility of phoenixes to just move and snipe ovies or mutas.
I also see big opportunity to use infestors FG as backup for detectors, and to help retake air from phoenixes.
Fact is that your tactic can be really difficult to defend - micro intensive and really gas consuming for zerg.
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I prefer calling it the xDaunt Build because even though it sounds a lot like Bisu build, the way you use it can be very different.
Because as far as I can remember, the Bisu Build is harass with sair + dt/ht drops (both or dt) while building up. This build however may have the same concept of killing detection and making use of DTs, the build concentrates more of owning Z with mass army with DT and using everything else with detection.
Anyway I tried it out earlier with my clanmate. Here's the replay.
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-144995.jpg)
It was pretty hard to constantly produce everything.
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On September 02 2010 00:13 ReCharge wrote:I prefer calling it the xDaunt Build because even though it sounds a lot like Bisu build, the way you use it can be very different. Because as far as I can remember, the Bisu Build is harass with sair + dt/ht drops (both or dt) while building up. This build however may have the same concept of killing detection and making use of DTs, the build concentrates more of owning Z with mass army with DT and using everything else with detection. Anyway I tried it out earlier with my clanmate. Here's the replay. It was pretty hard to constantly produce everything.
I don't think that it's an easy build to just pick up and use. Anything that involves phoenixes requires some finesse. Also, I think it takes a few tries to really understand how the transitions work and where the important timings are. It takes a little bit of "game sense" if you catch my drift.
As for the Bisu build, I initially resisted that name for the reasons that you pointed out. The Bisu build was a FE => into mass harassment. This build doesn't necessarily start with a FE, and the tier 2 play is less about harassment and more about overpowering the zerg. Of course, these differences can't really be helped given that PvZ in Starcraft 2 is a different beast than in BW.
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Maybe this thread is not the best place to discuss, but I do not really get what the point of 2 Gate is if you intend to establish a quick expansion.
The Zealot-Timings for single 10 Gate are: [1] 2:51 / [2] 3:14 / [3] 3:37 / [4] 4:00
The Zealot-Timings for 12/14 Gate are: [1] 3:08 / [3] 3:41 / [5] 4:03 / [7] 04:36 / [9] 05:09
So 2 Gate gains the lead just with the 5th zealot but you have to cut probes in order to afford further zealot production and as far as I read it here on TL most players dont even produce more than 5 Zealots. In addition I cant see a way to afford constant production out of 2 gateways while you saturate your expo and transition to next Tech-Tier.
So pls someone tell me whats the secret with 2 Gate into Expo?
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Point of 2-gate is to discourage/punish early expanding zerg players, while still leaving the option of pumping stalkers out of 2 gates if they attempt to go with a roach all-in counter to your 2-gate. (1 gateway doesn't really produce enough stalkers in my experience to halt a roach all-in) Also, whoever said it was constant production? It is not a BIG problem if you need to stop production for a bit so that you can get the expansion running quickly; just produce out of 1 gateway until things start to kick in.
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On September 02 2010 00:30 Xanatoss wrote:
Maybe this thread is not the best place to discuss, but I do not really get what the point of 2 Gate is if you intend to establish a quick expansion.
The Zealot-Timings for single 10 Gate are: [1] 2:51 / [2] 3:14 / [3] 3:37 / [4] 4:00
The Zealot-Timings for 12/14 Gate are: [1] 3:08 / [3] 3:41 / [5] 4:03 / [7] 04:36 / [9] 05:09
So 2 Gate gains the lead just with the 5th zealot but you have to cut probes in order to afford further zealot production and as far as I read it here on TL most players dont even produce more than 5 Zealots. In addition I cant see a way to afford constant production out of 2 gateways while you saturate your expo and transition to next Tech-Tier.
So pls someone tell me whats the secret with 2 Gate into Expo?
The 2-gate forces the zerg to prepare for a larger rush than what you may actually be planning to do. If the zerg see only 1-gate, he knows that there is a limited amount of pressure that you can put on him, which means that he has the green light to fast expand. A zerg cannot safely do that against a 2-gate opening. This forces the zerg to react in certain, predictable ways that you can later exploit.
Also, the extra gateway gives you some flexibility in the early game. If the zerg is open to early pressure, you can take advantage of it and attack him.
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On September 02 2010 00:22 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2010 00:13 ReCharge wrote:I prefer calling it the xDaunt Build because even though it sounds a lot like Bisu build, the way you use it can be very different. Because as far as I can remember, the Bisu Build is harass with sair + dt/ht drops (both or dt) while building up. This build however may have the same concept of killing detection and making use of DTs, the build concentrates more of owning Z with mass army with DT and using everything else with detection. Anyway I tried it out earlier with my clanmate. Here's the replay. It was pretty hard to constantly produce everything. I don't think that it's an easy build to just pick up and use. Anything that involves phoenixes requires some finesse. Also, I think it takes a few tries to really understand how the transitions work and where the important timings are. It takes a little bit of "game sense" if you catch my drift. As for the Bisu build, I initially resisted that name for the reasons that you pointed out. The Bisu build was a FE => into mass harassment. This build doesn't necessarily start with a FE, and the tier 2 play is less about harassment and more about overpowering the zerg. Of course, these differences can't really be helped given that PvZ in Starcraft 2 is a different beast than in BW.
I'm glad we agree in this. I couldn't just pick this build up because of what you just said, plus the fact that you need to be aggressive AND be producing something in your base consistently is my weakness. Although after a few games I'm getting the hang of it, especially because I've trying to use Phoenixes like they did in SC:BW since I started playing PvZ so it was easier for me to use them.
Although, getting a lot of phoenix (around 6~8) can let you skip a type of unit (usually HT) because of gravitic beam, you can FF the overseer, then gravitic beam the hydras 1 at a time, making them useful even after killing the overseer. I'm not saying that you might not need HT's at all, I'm just saying that you can delay it a bit because of that and make other units/ expand first.
Anyway great build and it should be stickied or something.
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Going to take me a while to grok this whole thing. But this looks freaking awesome. Great work, xDaunt.
-Cross
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I really like the versatility of the build - I won't go into the many things I like about your build (especially the fact that you NOT totally rely on colossi to begin with) nevertheless at the beginning of midgame it seems as if you'd invest a pretty large amount into different tech trees
just let me tell you what I've been trying lately to clarify my point: I usually get my core early, get 2nd gate before 2nd gas and get 2-3 stalkers + 2 zealots + 2 sentrys and push + expand; depending on what I can detect there are two ways my tech proceeds - I either go stargate + phoenix + more gates + later robotics + bay when scouting ling/mutas; or I go twilight-council for blink + dark shrine + more gates + later archives when I scout hydras
getting both the stargate AND the twilight council basicly at the same time seems to be a little bit unnecessary to me to be frank; the most important point: when you get a twilight council early, you can get blinked stalkers for harass - although not nearly as good as phoenixes for mapcontrol and harass they totally own hydras in lower numbers due to ridiculously easy micro; they also allow for fast overseer-snipes, especially when attack-upgraded;
more importantly, blinked stalkers means he won't SWITCH to mutalisks, which means you can get your templars out
on the other hand, when I go phoenixes I get the feeling of being more succesful with a transition into colossi, because he mostly gets a ton of zerglings....I don't know, don't want to take away anything from your build, it's really amazing; uses all the strength protoss has vs zerg
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The only issue I see with going colossus is that the zerg player WILL produce corruptors to kill that sonofabitch, and that means you're probably staring down Broodlords when hivetech comes out if you don't kill off the corruptors ASAP (if the game lasts that long)
(Anything that discourages a zerg player from going Broodlords is a good thing IMO.)
Getting the TC out asap and getting the dark shrine really allows you to wipe any ground forces the zerg player will have, which will be plenty if you go phoenix. You won't need more than 6 anyways, unless they insist on trying to overpower you with mutalisks, in which case you can opt to just get more phoenixes.
Also, on 2-bases, getting both branches of tech is sustainable anyways.
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I have this feeling that the thread isn't appealing to "open" because of the title, maybe a mod can change this to "SUPER PVZ ROFLSTOMP BUILD" lol. Joking aside, the title isn't appealing to look at, I only checked it because I saw the word "DT"
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On September 01 2010 20:11 Plexa wrote:
I don't think much of the early game stuff your outlining is very good, or near optimal but I'll leave that alone because I think the unit composition you outlined in your FAQ is pretty exciting. I don't think you really need to open anything special to get to that point since you need twilight council for upgrades so you're going to have access to templar tech if you want it (and you always need something to transition into if he wins the corruptor/colossus war).
You know what you are talking about though, everything you outlined in the spoilers etc is all correct up to my own understanding. I suppose the difference in opinion over the earlygame stuff is mostly due to stylistic differences between us, so I hope that doesn't bother you too much. But anyway, using feedback on overseers is pretty clever, definitely going to have to try this out!
One thing worth noting is that DTs can kill lairs really quickly and if the opponent doesn't have a lair - he can't rebuild detection. I had a friend lose a game to a mothership recall (which sniped his hive/pool) and mass DT because he couldn't rebuild his overseers once they died.
wow plexa the lair thing is actually a great point i haven't thought of
that would have to be SUPER frustrating
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On September 02 2010 01:16 tetramaster wrote:
The only issue I see with going colossus is that the zerg player WILL produce corruptors to kill that sonofabitch, and that means you're probably staring down Broodlords when hivetech comes out if you don't kill off the corruptors ASAP (if the game lasts that long)
(Anything that discourages a zerg player from going Broodlords is a good thing IMO.)
Getting the TC out asap and getting the dark shrine really allows you to wipe any ground forces the zerg player will have, which will be plenty if you go phoenix. You won't need more than 6 anyways, unless they insist on trying to overpower you with mutalisks, in which case you can opt to just get more phoenixes.
Also, on 2-bases, getting both branches of tech is sustainable anyways.
Correct. The other reason why you want the TC to be built at about the same time as the stargate is that your +1 weapons should be finishing about this time. I didn't really discuss it, but I always build a forge before I expand and start +1 weapons right away to get ahead on the upgrades.
Edit: I'll go ahead and add that now.
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I've forced zerg players to go all-in with one overseer over their main army after I snipe their lair/hive due to their lack of detection.
Zerg players should always, always have at least one overseer available to roam and 1 for each base they have, especially if they're against a toss, since DTs just facerape if given 15 seconds to take out the main+x number of tech structures.
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From a Zerg point of view, I think that the proper response to this build is counter-intuitive.
The best counter to Phoenixes are not Hydras, but mass Queens*. Both are slow as hell off-creep, but Queens actually spread that creep, and transition much better into the late game.
The obvious late game transition is into Broodlords. By getting Queens instead of Hydras, you save a lot of gas, get tier 3 faster, plus Queens are absolutely amazing with Broodlords. They can heal them, they have the longest AA range Zerg can get, and they tank a lot better, making a Queen/Brood ball very hard to engage.
Now, you'll claim that HTs feedback Queens to death, and you'd be right, as Queens cannot survive feedback** because they cannot waste their energy. However, while you are feedbacking a cheap 150 min/0 larvae unit, you aren't storming the roaches and lings that are inevitably around, and if Broodlords are out, your HTs need to get dangerously close to perform.
Queens can also help by healing the Overseers being sniped, making your DT tech more of a gamble.
At this point the game is probably decided on the effectiveness of your harass, as Queen/Brood is as immobile as Zerg can get, and Phoenix/Warp Prism/Stalker are the epitome of mobility. Still, Speedlings are always a problem for Toss without colossi, so it should make for some interesting games.
Infestors could also play a role in here. Stalkers can't really snipe Broodlords effectively if they're rooted. Infestors*** are also godlike vs Phoenixes. The problem is that controlling Broodlors + Queens, + Roach/ling + Overseers + Infestors is more than most Z could handle. Good thing that your build is equally hard to use.
I sincerely hope that your build catches on, so PvZ can become the beautiful high-level matchup everyone's been waiting for.
*Most zergs will tell you mass queens can never work, so your build should strive for a long time.
**I think the AI screws zerg again here though, as the smart-cast will use the lowest mana unit to cast, rather than the highest, thus you can not get a beautiful army of 100ish mana Queens.
*** Infestors can also get NP, in case you decide to get those fancy flying ships, and Fungal Growth actually hits DTs even without detection.
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EPT
