This build looks very solid and I agree that colossi feel very vulnerable. I do not mind them mixed into an extremely late game build for some back up fire but aside from that they feel so fragile when they're on the field.

Downloading the replays now.

*Edit - Watched the replays. Overall it looks very strong. If your opponent had ran the speedlings in after the baneling bust on Xel'Naga Caverns, the game would have ended right there. That's aside from the point though. I very much enjoyed watching ultras get shredded as they have caused me some problems lately when I do not have two robos up late game for a quick ultra switch.

My concern with this build is the same as most shared here. Detection. In a couple of the metalopolis games in particular I saw 3-4 idle overseers on the field at the same time. If all of these are brought into the fray at low energy and actually WITH the ultras (one opponent in particular loved running his army with zero or one overseer) the phoenixes will have trouble dealing with them fast enough. I suppose when the army composition was roach/ultra this may be less of a problem. And I said the phoenixes because the stalkers aren't getting anywhere near overseers with the ultras on the field.

One other thing to note. In nearly every game, by the time it was approaching the mid-game you had a significant food advantage already from the zerg players either throwing away units or failing to macro properly because of the early two gate pressure. I think this points to a degree at a failure on their part as any success of this build. Two gate is fairly standard pvp/pvz.

I'll give this a try and see how it works out for me on the ladder and thanks for the build.

tl;dr Optimistically hopeful this can work as in reality as shown in the replays.

Darkblade7

Malaysia4 Posts

September 01 2010 06:44 GMT

#24

Lol this is epic, i tried it today ...not exactly because i was having mouse error for 15sec at the beginning of the game.... so my worker went AFK

[image loading]

ReCharge

Philippines505 Posts

September 01 2010 06:50 GMT

#25

On September 01 2010 15:26 tetramaster wrote:

Show nested quote +

Pardon, but what's the BW Bisu build?

Its a super harass build, corsairs kills ovies, DT kill everything else outside of detection. Particularly the workers.

tetramaster

Canada253 Posts

September 01 2010 06:57 GMT

#26

Ah, then yes, I completely see how this build is extremely similar to that.

Skyro

United States1823 Posts

September 01 2010 07:16 GMT

#27

I often go stargate opener vs zerg if I FE. FE is a completely viable opener on some maps, and IMO preferred over 2-gate again, on particular maps. For example I would prefer to FE on a map like Scrap Station. You can absolutely keep up with the zerg's drone count if you chrono your workers. I usually transition into robo after stargate for Colossi (and Immortals if needed). The reasoning is the hydra timing push can really catch you with your pants down since you invested early into phoenixes and you can get Colossi up faster than HT. Phoenixes also play a role in killing the Corruptors that you know are coming when they see you went Colossi.

Colossi are sort of boring yes, but they are still an incredibly solid unit in this match-up. You should definitely consider adding some Colossi into your army mix in very late games, even if you already have HTs as HTs are the counter to the counter of Colossi (Corruptors and Infestors).

I think you're catching a lot of zerg off-guard with the unit comp. Storm is great vs hydras, but terrible vs roaches when they get all their upgrades, so you need robo units to deal with that. Roaches can just burrow and move away and be back at full health in seconds. I'm also skeptical about relying too much on DTs in your main army. At the end of the day it all comes down to micro, so if you can outmicro them I can see it working but hard to say. Phoenixes or stalkers trying to chase down overseers will get riped up by zerg players who kite their overseers over their hydras. One well-placed fungal growth can also cause big trouble for your DTs.

Azron

Australia11 Posts

September 01 2010 08:15 GMT

#28

also known as commando build in bw - Legionnaire :D

Piy

Scotland3152 Posts

September 01 2010 08:27 GMT

#29

If zerg makes quite a few roaches and a smaller number of Hydra's it's quite hard to win with this.

I used phoenix/zealot for quite a while on the ladder and it just isn't cost effective against a large enough number of Roaches with some hydra's.

Maybe you've worked out a better version though

DennyR

Germany379 Posts

September 01 2010 09:33 GMT

#30

I liked the Idea to DT/Overseersnipe from the very beginning and Ive tested it with success but I dont really use it in laddergames, maybe I'll give this a try.

ALPINA

3791 Posts

September 01 2010 10:21 GMT

#31

Looks like nice strat, but I don't think Roach/hydra army will have huge problems with this build.

Gonna watch replays to see what can I improve vs. this build as Zerg

mathemagician1986

Germany549 Posts

September 01 2010 10:32 GMT

#32

I'm a Zerg, but it's always nice to see a well thought through strategy like this! I bet this was a lot of work, nice job man!

Xeln4g4

Italy1209 Posts

September 01 2010 10:47 GMT

#33

Congratulation for this one, theoretical support, replays support and so on, great full comprehensive guide on PvZ. Excellent.

JonnyLaw

United States3482 Posts

September 01 2010 10:52 GMT

#34

After trying it a couple times I still think this can work well. I failed at it but in all honesty I spent too much time thinking and not enough playing the match so my overall macro/micro suffered to a large degree. In my last game, the zerg mass produced overseers, bringing six into the last engagement and kept them rather far back from the templar.

I really think it came down to my lack of early and mid game aggression though. I needed the DTs quicker in order to push back the roach/hydra army and put him on his heels during a stage of the game where he cannot afford to make excessive overseers. I'll keep trying it a bit. I'll upload the replay tomorrow.

Plexa

Aotearoa39261 Posts

September 01 2010 11:11 GMT

#35

I don't think much of the early game stuff your outlining is very good, or near optimal but I'll leave that alone because I think the unit composition you outlined in your FAQ is pretty exciting. I don't think you really need to open anything special to get to that point since you need twilight council for upgrades so you're going to have access to templar tech if you want it (and you always need something to transition into if he wins the corruptor/colossus war).

You know what you are talking about though, everything you outlined in the spoilers etc is all correct up to my own understanding. I suppose the difference in opinion over the earlygame stuff is mostly due to stylistic differences between us, so I hope that doesn't bother you too much. But anyway, using feedback on overseers is pretty clever, definitely going to have to try this out!

One thing worth noting is that DTs can kill lairs really quickly and if the opponent doesn't have a lair - he can't rebuild detection. I had a friend lose a game to a mothership recall (which sniped his hive/pool) and mass DT because he couldn't rebuild his overseers once they died.

Zidane

United States1686 Posts

September 01 2010 11:13 GMT

#36

The couple replays i DLed really don't demonstrate your build in writing at all. Can you reccomend one from the ones you posted?

TheFinalWord

Australia790 Posts

September 01 2010 11:23 GMT

#37

What happens if they get burrow, since it doesn't look like you'll be getting any detection in the entire game.

Also is it possible you are relying too much on feedbacking overseers since its so easy to deplete the energy?

leveller

Sweden1840 Posts

September 01 2010 11:29 GMT

#38

I always go phoenix into chargelots into HTs vs zerg, Ill see if I can upload some replays later of a simmilar style to this. With this composition I like adding immortals since zergs most likely tech switch is to roaches and/or ultras.

mx99

Poland23 Posts

September 01 2010 11:40 GMT

#39

That's just theory, but what would you do if zerg would try to retake air control by throwing some corruptors ( amount similiar to phoenixes) into mix of his air units, phoenixes are pretty bad vs corruptors.

Sewi

Germany1697 Posts

September 01 2010 11:48 GMT

#40

Didnt read it all but will definitely when I have the time.
Thanks for your long and well structured post! I will comment on the replays when I watched them and read through your whole post