EPTStalkers feel counter-productive against PDDs, VRs get sniped down before getting a chance to charge, blimps also go down pretty fast...
Stalkers+HTs and try to miraculously feedback Ravens before the HTs die maybe?
[Q] Protoss vs air heavy Terran
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Phrencys
Canada270 Posts
Stalkers feel counter-productive against PDDs, VRs get sniped down before getting a chance to charge, blimps also go down pretty fast... Stalkers+HTs and try to miraculously feedback Ravens before the HTs die maybe? | ||
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Shifft
Canada1085 Posts
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ChickenLips
2912 Posts
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entropius
United States1046 Posts
Phoenix are cost-effective against vikings, but just barely. (Phoenix have more health, vikings have a little more dps. Phoenix are faster, vikings have more range.) They may be able to deal with vikings in a vacuum, but they won't be relevant anywhere near the enemy ground ball, since vikings outrange them badly, and the vikings can just park themselves over a marine ball which will pop your phoenix ridiculously fast if they get in range. Vikings are more relevant in an anti-ground role than phoenix in large numbers, arguably, since they can land. The real problem is banshees. Phoenix kill them, but you have to see them first. Against a Terran who brings enough vikings to one-volley an observer and is good about scanning and popping them, beating off banshee harass is ridiculously hard. You're forced to spend a huge amount of gas chronoboosting out observers, 300 more gas and a lot of time getting a robo bay for observer speed, and you're going to suffer terrible, terrible damage if the banshee flock slips through your detection net because they have ridiculous DPS and range. And if the T manages to scan down all of your observers nearby, you just autolose, since he'll kill so many probes/buildings (including your robo, possibly) before another one shows up. Cannoning up is hugely expensive, since you need a very dense forest of the things unless you want the banshees to just snipe them off one at a time; they only outrange banshees by 1. Storm could be useful against banshee harass, but that's yet MORE gas you have to spend. Part of the problem is that protoss has no effective ground-to-air unit; stalkers deal less than half of the DPS to banshees that they receive. It's possible for protoss to hold off a flock of banshees, but not really cost effectively; the solutions involve multiple tech paths and the expenditure of a great deal of gas on multiple observers, phoenix, blink stalkers, etc., and even with all of that you've barely got parity. | ||
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tootsweet
United States4 Posts
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Jayrod
1820 Posts
Stalker/HT combo is probably safer than max air, but maybe you could find an air combination that can survive his vikings because you will win a base race with voidrays | ||
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atrain117
United States54 Posts
On August 28 2010 00:34 entropius wrote: I've found that the counter is to wait for the next patch against a Terran who has good micro. Phoenix are cost-effective against vikings, but just barely. (Phoenix have more health, vikings have a little more dps. Phoenix are faster, vikings have more range.) They may be able to deal with vikings in a vacuum, but they won't be relevant anywhere near the enemy ground ball, since vikings outrange them badly, and the vikings can just park themselves over a marine ball which will pop your phoenix ridiculously fast if they get in range. Vikings are more relevant in an anti-ground role than phoenix in large numbers, arguably, since they can land. The real problem is banshees. Phoenix kill them, but you have to see them first. Against a Terran who brings enough vikings to one-volley an observer and is good about scanning and popping them, beating off banshee harass is ridiculously hard. You're forced to spend a huge amount of gas chronoboosting out observers, 300 more gas and a lot of time getting a robo bay for observer speed, and you're going to suffer terrible, terrible damage if the banshee flock slips through your detection net because they have ridiculous DPS and range. And if the T manages to scan down all of your observers nearby, you just autolose, since he'll kill so many probes/buildings (including your robo, possibly) before another one shows up. Cannoning up is hugely expensive, since you need a very dense forest of the things unless you want the banshees to just snipe them off one at a time; they only outrange banshees by 1. Storm could be useful against banshee harass, but that's yet MORE gas you have to spend. Part of the problem is that protoss has no effective ground-to-air unit; stalkers deal less than half of the DPS to banshees that they receive. It's possible for protoss to hold off a flock of banshees, but not really cost effectively; the solutions involve multiple tech paths and the expenditure of a great deal of gas on multiple observers, phoenix, blink stalkers, etc., and even with all of that you've barely got parity. Just theorycraft, but couldnt you just use some of the 28+ pheonix outlined in your strategy to lift off your probes while you move your observers in? I'm not sure the validity of it, but if it's against unescorted banchees couldn't it effectively stall them? Also, don't forget a mothership. Even if they scan the cloaked units, it is best, in my experiance, to use it for the vortex. This is because it freezes half of their units for 30 seconds of the battle. Also, it balls their units just perfectly for some HT mayhem. Thoughts? | ||
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SpiciestZerg
United States154 Posts
stalker/ht for example: vikings dont hit, feedback and storm both screw over banshees, feedback is effective against ravens AND PDD's, so even if you miss the feedback before they cast, you can 1 shot the drones. Battlecruisers cant dodge storm, and take a huge chunk of dmg from feedback. add in your own air if not many vikings, and its even more effective; if a ton of vikings, their A to G forces will be much smaller. | ||
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Thoreezhea1
United States532 Posts
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Markwerf
Netherlands3728 Posts
Stalker/HT might be efficient after the patch, the BC nerf was probably because of multiplayer I think actually. | ||
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Volkov
United States71 Posts
On August 28 2010 00:34 entropius wrote: I've found that the counter is to wait for the next patch against a Terran who has good micro. Phoenix are cost-effective against vikings, but just barely. (Phoenix have more health, vikings have a little more dps. Phoenix are faster, vikings have more range.) They may be able to deal with vikings in a vacuum, but they won't be relevant anywhere near the enemy ground ball, since vikings outrange them badly, and the vikings can just park themselves over a marine ball which will pop your phoenix ridiculously fast if they get in range. Vikings are more relevant in an anti-ground role than phoenix in large numbers, arguably, since they can land. The real problem is banshees. Phoenix kill them, but you have to see them first. Against a Terran who brings enough vikings to one-volley an observer and is good about scanning and popping them, beating off banshee harass is ridiculously hard. You're forced to spend a huge amount of gas chronoboosting out observers, 300 more gas and a lot of time getting a robo bay for observer speed, and you're going to suffer terrible, terrible damage if the banshee flock slips through your detection net because they have ridiculous DPS and range. And if the T manages to scan down all of your observers nearby, you just autolose, since he'll kill so many probes/buildings (including your robo, possibly) before another one shows up. Cannoning up is hugely expensive, since you need a very dense forest of the things unless you want the banshees to just snipe them off one at a time; they only outrange banshees by 1. Storm could be useful against banshee harass, but that's yet MORE gas you have to spend. Part of the problem is that protoss has no effective ground-to-air unit; stalkers deal less than half of the DPS to banshees that they receive. It's possible for protoss to hold off a flock of banshees, but not really cost effectively; the solutions involve multiple tech paths and the expenditure of a great deal of gas on multiple observers, phoenix, blink stalkers, etc., and even with all of that you've barely got parity. Everything in this, except for the wait for the next patch part - because it will make PvT even more imbalanced, not better. | ||
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Kyadytim
United States886 Posts
First off, Phoenix are not cost effective against Vikings, because Vikings cost 75 gas to a the Phoenix's 100. Second, constant chrono-boost on a Stargate (which requires all the energy from 2 Nexus) reduces Phoenix build time to 30 seconds, while the Terran is producing 2 Vikings every 42 seconds from 1 Starport with a Reactor. Onto actually fighting Terran air: Feedback is really good. Really really good. The problem is, if my gameplan for holding off a marine/banshee push or any banshee/bc composition involves feedback on everything, the Terran can, for 200 gas, EMP his entire army before engaging, cutting out my ability to do that critical initial damage with feedback. It's true that BCs can't really move out of storms, but at the same time, storm does very little damage to them. Massed BCs that stacked up so that you're getting them all with each storm might make it worth it, though. Makes me long for the good old days of BW when storm dealt 250 damage... | ||
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altairian
United States105 Posts
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GrassEater
Sweden417 Posts
Make the arcon usable or just give stalkers +3 dmg vs air or something. Protoss players are for the moment forced to react to all new terran tactics that is coming up. - What if i go raven+ mass banshee and marrines. Ppd fucks up the phoenix and stalker marrines the void ray. + they can snipe the observer and making the banshee invisible. I guess ht is the only thing that works vs that combinatin. And ht is not easy accesible. Maybe if you try to use phoenixs to snipe the raven when they are moving out. yea.. that might work. Next day there is 3 other terran strategys with maybe only one or two strange counters from protoss, All you see with your probe is a rax at 12 gas 13 orbital 15. If you tries to scout with your firth stalker you see in addition a bunker with 4 marines inside. A specific push from Terran counters every build but one or 2 . A push from a Protoss counters 1 or 2 builds only. | ||
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