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I wasn't overly impressed by MorroW in his serves vs Idra; he simply abused the same thing three games in a row. Then again Idra uses the same opening almost every game he plays, but Zerg has far less viable openings and he's trying to get an opening that is solid against the majority of the ways T can open, unfortunately MorroW found a counter to that and just stuck with it game after game.
There's certainly a mind-games aspect going on here, but I think Idra handled it better by sticking with what he was doing which would win if MorroW stopped fucking around, until game four where he kinda buckled really and lost his focus. At that point Idra's signature mechanics and macro just fell off badly and MorroW could win in a 'straight up' game.
Really though I think MorroW needs to stop using that retarded opening. He played some far better games earlier in the tournament showing himself capable of doing other stuff, but if he keeps publicly abusing this reaper opening and locks himself in to only being able to play at the top level when he opens this way most of the time then sooner or later, regardless of whether it actually needs to be nerfed or not then nerfed it will be.
Personally I think it's a little too strong. But also one of the biggest problems for Idra was the map selection, compounded by his spawn positions which never really favoured him. With some of the best maps for him thrown out tactically by MorroW, he really was not in the best of shape right from the off. I haven't seen the replays, I only watched it live so I haven't seen the exact timings, but my impression was that one of the reasons MorroW's reaper build worked so well was because of the maps and starting positions which tilted the build from "very strong" to "too strong".
Edited for clarity.
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The common thing to say is often : he has taken his natural/2nd/3rd base
Anyhow you can't blame Morrow for playing like that espiecially when you see the 4th game, brilliant mind game from him. Someone had to make IdrA pay for doing the same build over and over again.
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On August 23 2010 22:18 Poobah wrote: Personally I think it's a little too strong. But also one of the biggest problems for Idra was the map selection, compounded by his spawn positions which never really favoured him. With some of the best maps for him thrown out tactically by MorroW, he really was not in the best of shape right from the off. I haven't seen the replays, I only watched it live so I haven't seen the exact timings, but my impression was that one of the reasons MorroW's reaper build worked so well was because of the maps and starting positions which tilted the build from "very strong" to "too strong".
Edited for clarity.
And i would say a large part of what took it to "too strong" was Idra not changing his plans based on map and starting position, and the opening he was facing. Same with that famous "you suck silver" fiasco. Always fast expand no matter what all the time is going to make you weak to certain things. The people beating Idra right now can tailor their play to be strong against him. He's a great player, and his playstyle makes him an absolute monster later in the game. But it also has been giving him nightmares against early cutsie play, with no real change up that I can see in what he does.
"my incredible skills will see me through the dark times, and on the other side i shall crush you" maybe isnt going to work right now against the players he is facing. They are good players too.
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On August 23 2010 22:18 Poobah wrote:
Really though I think MorroW needs to stop using that retarded opening. He played some far better games earlier in the tournament showing himself capable of doing other stuff, but if he keeps publicly abusing this reaper opening and locks himself in to only being able to play at the top level when he opens this way most of the time then sooner or later, regardless of whether it actually needs to be nerfed or not then nerfed it will be.
Edited for clarity.
Oh I hope it is. Zergs right now can't even consider opening anything other than speedling because of the threat of openings like these. Meanwhile my playstyle demolishes speedling opens and I pretty much never lose to zergs. It's not fair right now in so many ways.
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TvZ, it seems that even Banelings aren't enough to just straight up beat Marine heavy builds. The real losses only occurred when Banelings were backed heavily by Mutas or Ultras,
The times they used banelings+infestor they pretty much completely wrecked the marines. Banelings by themselves can be kited and their damage minimized some, with a FG they are just deadly.
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On August 23 2010 22:21 esKq wrote: The common thing to say is often : he has taken his natural/2nd/3rd base
Anyhow you can't blame Morrow for playing like that espiecially when you see the 4th game, brilliant mind game from him. Someone had to make IdrA pay for doing the same build over and over again.
Zerg has BARELY any other openings, and can't really do any cute shit like terran, that's the main problem that the top zergs are annoyed with. How can he do different builds when they are even worse vs other builds/get countered by a simple wall (if aggressive)
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On August 23 2010 19:32 Wolf wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On August 23 2010 15:15 xPrac wrote: Here's a long post in case your view of this series is something along the lines of: "oh shit morrow is korean." Also, thanks to the posters who provide the thoughts like "terran OP." Really helpful guys.
I wasn't really an IdrA fan until after watching the IEM finals. People seem to focus an exceptional amount on MorroW's play, which didn't seem like anything special to me besides spamming reapers from 5 rax. I chose to focus on IdrA's play, which was much more impressive to me since it's probably equal if not even more helpful to review the loser's play just as much as the winner's.
In Game 1 IdrA was essentially caught off guard by the mass amount of reapers. All he had when MorroW began his aggression were lings, which obviously are atrocious against mass reapers. This game just looks like IdrA playing standard while MorroW does an aggressive BO and pressures IdrA's standard play into submission.
Game 2 it really looks like MorroW's aggression was later since IdrA doesn't do any large build order changes but when the reapers start trying to harass IdrA basically has roaches out and even if you micro and kill a few roaches (which basically takes forever) you're not really doing anything useful. Spending 500/500 to kill like maybe five roaches (375/125) doesn't really get you anywhere fast.
The harassment basically did absolutely nothing in Game 2 and IdrA was able to get some creep spread out and then get the roach speed upgrade, essentially ending the usefulness of reapers completely. Obviously MorroW starts pounding some marauders, but IdrA throws down a spire at around 10 minutes and proceeds to dominate MorroW. This is the only game we see mutas from IdrA and also the only win in the series. I don't really think this is a coincidence. This five barracks reaper build invests extremely heavily to harass and if it is ineffective like in game 2 then you pretty much only have the option of pounding marauders and marines since you've already thrown down 5+ tech lab barracks and are behind on basically everything (stim/combatshield/+1/vacs). If mutas come out you are pretty screwed. From the time the mutas pop it's pretty much textbook ZvT domination and MorroW knows he's pretty behind so he just does a pointless allin with SCVs, since it's not 15 minutes into the game and banelings won't instantly kill all of them. The ghost transition was cute but if you're on two gas and pounding ghosts and marines you better have some seriously strong micro if you think that is actually going to work.against roach/bane/muta/infestor.
Game 3 is the momentum game, whoever wins this is obviously up 2-1 in the tournament while the loser has to play defensively in game 4. The openings are the exact same as they have been for the first two but the reapers' effectiveness is pretty much the same as Game 2. What's the difference between game 3 and game 2 then? At 10 minutes instead of throwing down a spire, IdrA has just pretty much started building an extractor at his nat. He is really behind on gas and basically allows MorroW too much time to recover from his econ-trashing opening. His CC hasn't even landed at 10 minutes. At 11 minutes IdrA throws down a baneling nest behind his natural (he still doesn't have the 2nd extractor at his nat). Thirty seconds later MorroW scans the baneilng nest and does a great play, killing it at 12 minutes before it finishes, setting back IdrA a huge amount. I was pretty disappointed when IdrA threw down the baneling nest at 11 minutes instead of a spire, but he got the 2nd gas in his main extremely late and his 3rd gas at his nat late too so it's not like he could even keep up muta production.
Let's take a look at one thing now. Obviously MorroW's baneling nest jack was a great play, but if we go back to Game 3 and take a look at where IdrA places his spire, we'll see that the spire is in a GREAT position. It's next to the ramp and it would be suicide for reapers to get there since they basically have to walk through IdrA's army. MorroW actually did scan the spire as well so it's not like he didn't know it was there. From this we pretty much learn two major things: actually get gas so you can tech and don't put your tech blatantly where it can get killed. You see it in game 3 here, you see it in tester vs STC game 2.
Obviously IdrA's mindset was rattled by MorroW's build order in game 3, which I thought was surprising since he basically crushed MorroW in game 2 and had the momentum. It really looks like IdrA was thinking something like "wow this dude's doing the same retarded shit three games in a row? what a ******" and then getting thrown off his game. Obviously this is a great mindgame by MorroW which was the direct set up for Game 4.
Game 4: IdrA gets unlucky and doesn't scout a timing attack. The only thing that matters here is MorroW's great transition from spamming the same build order three games in a row to a massive timing attack to take a 3-1 win in the finals. MorroW shows excellent BO5 play here and took the win.
To me this series was more of a testament to how good IdrA really is (could be) than anything else. He pretty much crushed MorroW in game 2. This wasn't exactly unexpected since we can take a look at the maps: in game 1 IdrA's nat was pretty much wide open up front combined with his unfamiliarity with the 5RR BO. Game 2 on metalop had IdrA's nat pretty much away from T, which is usually extremely hard to deal with for the T in that type of spawn location since Z can take the nat and the third so easily and expand away from T and it looked like textbook Z win. Game 3 IdrA's defense was still solid like Game 2, but it looked to me like his mindset wasn't at 100% and got behind on gas/tech, exactly what harassment is supposed to do to your econ.
MorroW definitely brought in a new strategy. I don't personally like how badly it crushes your econ but it's definitely suited against a heavy macro player like IdrA to throw him off his game. I'm not entirely sure if it's imbalanced but it's pretty clear that it works better on some maps than others and with the essentially trashy map design we have currently I don't like to call things imbalanced until there's actually been a lot of games played with the strategy.
I'm gonna be honest though, IdrA took out sSKS in a best of five in king of beta tournament, capping it with a nearly flawless display in game 5. I honestly think there's no way MorroW can beat sSKS in tournament so I'm inclined to consider IdrA a stronger player overall. I don't actually like IdrA's arrogance, but I can see how that makes for better drama...
gg to both players.
If you actually read this post, then thanks for your time. Really good read. This makes several good points. Hopefully most people will take the time to read this. IdrA definitely played exceptionally well, and you highlighted a lot of great things that he did that many of us may have overlooked.
Game 4 was a bit deeper than just not scouting a timing push. Morrow feigned 3 rax reaper and denied the scout to Idra with an early marine. Morrow instead goes reactor hellion/mauader all-in anticipating that Idra was producing early speedlings into roaches to counter reapers (which Idra did as that's the only answer to reapers he has). Intentional or not, Morrow's push in game 4 had the same timing as his previous reaper plays (~7 minutes) so there was little Idra could do to react in time.
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On August 23 2010 22:21 esKq wrote: The common thing to say is often : he has taken his natural/2nd/3rd base
Anyhow you can't blame Morrow for playing like that espiecially when you see the 4th game, brilliant mind game from him. Someone had to make IdrA pay for doing the same build over and over again.
Someone had to make MorroW pay for doing the same 5 rax build over and over again. No difference there. Don't go BS on one player while completely leaving the other alone. If idrA didn't play like he did during those reaper games he would have lost immediately. You can't drone up during the agression, because 10 reapers easily oneshot 5 drones at a time. Idra had to keep up the defence or else his economy would be more shattered.
Granted, morrows play definitely shook idra up. It was clearly visible that on game four that he was getting increasingly annoyed by morrows early agression. To counter the build he had to be completely focussed and into it, and due to idra's mental state it was easy to trick him.
As I was watching the tournament I was clearly psyched when idra did the 'magic box' muta spread on thors. I was looking forward to my next game against meching terrans.
But then morrow did his amazing reaper micro. Now I fear of any terran who watched that tournament. Morrow has handed the spade to the terran race, and they now start shoveling to get rid of all the zerg players' bodies that will soon accumulate.
Nothing to disrespect morrow on though, you can see that he learned to controll his reapers to the best of his abilities. I'm sure that most low diamond terrans won't be able to do that.
I won't go into balance issues, I'm sure my zerg bretheren will hammer on that. I'll just say that the 3rd/4th place games were much more intense and exciting that the finals. Both dimaga and tarson played superbly.
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dimaga is a joy to watch that i think everyone can agree on
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On August 23 2010 22:14 hoovehand wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2010 19:53 Foomnz wrote:On August 23 2010 19:20 hoovehand wrote:On August 23 2010 18:13 Krehlmar wrote: "Yeah I wen't all reapers which is a build that is unbalanced against zerg" - MorroW.
I'm Swedish but I take no real pride in his win, he did great... but IdrA just couldn't do anything against mass reapers which doesn't make it a player fault but a game fault. That ruins the experience for me.
That and Zerg just has to do way to fucking much to kill of the simplest of terran armies... banelings are 75-25 each which is almost as much as a reaper... just to blow up a coupple of basic terran marines. Whilst uppgraded helions roast zerglings by the dussins. i find this to be quite a naive and leaky argument. hole one: morrow won a few TvZ games without using reaper against both dimaga and idra. hole two: banelings are 50-25 each, and if they're 'so-so' then why does dimaga make them the staple unit in his army versus bio? (answer: their damage is INSANE) hole three: getting lings roasted by upgraded hellions is exactly the same as a terran running his marine ball into a stack of banelings. With respect I disagree #1 yeah those games he use hellions or banshee's instead...same effect..crush the Z early game economy while being immune to counter because of wall and auto repair ( the game Idra fast countered against Tarson was only do-able because the of back door on blistering sands. when he tried on Xel'naga against Morrow the choke allowed MorroW to crush it with like 4 Maruders) #2 yeah baneling are good against bio...but the best you can hope for is an army trade...ever! the unit does not allow for a win its just a reset I would prefer that a roach/hydra/ling army composition would be as useful against Terran bio...but its not.....lol 3# and its not exacly the same as hellions roasting Zerglings is it?????? lol your hellions don't all self destruct after they own 30 Zerglings ..... sorry but if terran doesn't use some kind of harrass versus zerg early game then he's at a massive disadvantage. zerg are not forced to early harrass, they're forced to hold on against early harrass. which puts them in the same boat essentially. the point about the hellion/baneling analogy was that you DO NOT lose millions of marines or zerglings in those situations otherwise you're a bad player. you also don't seem to understand that if you control your units well, you don't need to trade banelings against marines. it only takes a handful of banelings to destroy an entire army of marines.... that's not even close to an army trade.
That is rubbish....Terran dont have to harrass early game to stay in it...T can turtle and expand behind siege tanks and still go fine into the mid game with zerg ...
Terran only harass because the option is available at very little opportunity cost with potentially massive rewards.
I understand what your saying about how only bad players throw units to the meatgrinder (hellion/ baneling analogy)... ...but the two are not really analogous due to the hellions not self destructing to compensate for being really powerful vs 1 particular unit type
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I think its way to early to say that 5 rax reaper is imba against Z. Its a fairly new strat used. Hey it took ppl like 4 months figuring out that mutas can take on thors quite nicely.
It will be the fotm against Z for a while but MU will change again and something else will be considered OP. Probably in regards to T as I do feel T has a lot of untapped strategies at hand wheres Z feels like it did 4 months ago still..
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Personally I think it's a little too strong. But also one of the biggest problems for Idra was the map selection, compounded by his spawn positions which never really favoured him.
I just wanted to say: they played three two-player maps and one four-player map and that was the one he won so I find this comment to be a bit nonsensical. Cause there were no more advantageous starting positions he could have hoped for.
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On August 24 2010 00:11 Izzachar wrote: I think its way to early to say that 5 rax reaper is imba against Z. Its a fairly new strat used. Hey it took ppl like 4 months figuring out that mutas can take on thors quite nicely.
It will be the fotm against Z for a while but MU will change again and something else will be considered OP. Probably in regards to T as I do feel T has a lot of untapped strategies at hand wheres Z feels like it did 4 months ago still.. 5 rax is certainly a little imba (MorroW himself thinks so...), but that's not the real problem. The last game illustrated the real problem. Zerg has no idea what a Terran is doing. They simply can't find out. So they have to prepare for 5 rax reapers, for hellions, for thor drops, for everything. Unsurprisingly, they can't.
The other problem is there's no such thing as "all-in" for Terran. 5 rax should be an all-in play, yet Terran can expand while doing it. Absurdity.
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On August 24 2010 00:27 Doppelganger wrote:Show nested quote +Personally I think it's a little too strong. But also one of the biggest problems for Idra was the map selection, compounded by his spawn positions which never really favoured him. I just wanted to say: they played three two-player maps and one four-player map and that was the one he won so I find this comment to be a bit nonsensical. Cause there were no more advantageous starting positions he could have hoped for.
Never mind, I'm an idiot. I had myself convinced they played on Delta Quadrant, but I was thinking of a totally different series!
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Hey y'all,
I really appreciate everyone giving such good thoughts on the matter. I do want to stress I am talking about MorroW's play THROUGHOUT the tournament, not just his Semi and Finals games, which is what everyone is so up in arms about.
Again, he made Huk look like a run-of-the-mill-Diamond scrub as well as outmacro Idra in a very close game.
To point out... In a tournament with way fewer Zergs than any other race, Zerg took 2nd and 3rd, and Dimaga and Idra both beat the 5 rax reaper nonsense at least once. Both players are strong, but there were plenty of Terrans and mech and yet they did quite well. I am NOT saying anything is or is not over-powered, I am merely saying it has been beaten.
To recap, the reasons why Morrow's play is innovative is not because it has never been done before, but because it has never been done before on the European or American scene with someone as strong as Morrow. Sure theSTC and Tester are likely stronger players who have played around with these things, but let's address some major issues.
Number 1. No Terran has ever won a major SC2 Tournament until now. Let's all say that aloud to ourselves. Any imbalance aside... This is a big deal. Morrow is the guy who did it. Even if he isn't the best, we can all learn plenty from him, until we all too start schooling Huk.
Number 2. He showed that TvT is NOT unpredicatable or random. There are only BO counters to fundamentally weak builds. He tried to Reaper FE, a fragile idea, and lost. As soon as he was willing to open standard Fact-Port, he could then branch into anything with at least a reasonable game.
Number 3. His TvP is fresh in an environment currently dominated by Mech and MMM. The games weren't even close in no small part because he had a flexible build and made an efficient composition to handle Huk's own composition.
Number 4. His most clear cut TvZ wins were with Marine-Tank (barring G4 vs Idra) or even more heavy Bio armies. Mech is imba RAWRRAWRRAWR and here a guy wins a tournament without ever building more than a couple Hellions and 6-10 Tanks, while relying almost solely on Bio to handle the dreaded Zergling, Baneling mixes. His losses were more to Idra/Dimaga just being better in those games than any kind of simple 'Bio counter' bullshit.
Cheers, Doug
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On August 24 2010 00:50 Yaotzin wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2010 00:11 Izzachar wrote: I think its way to early to say that 5 rax reaper is imba against Z. Its a fairly new strat used. Hey it took ppl like 4 months figuring out that mutas can take on thors quite nicely.
It will be the fotm against Z for a while but MU will change again and something else will be considered OP. Probably in regards to T as I do feel T has a lot of untapped strategies at hand wheres Z feels like it did 4 months ago still.. 5 rax is certainly a little imba (MorroW himself thinks so...), but that's not the real problem. The last game illustrated the real problem. Zerg has no idea what a Terran is doing. They simply can't find out. So they have to prepare for 5 rax reapers, for hellions, for thor drops, for everything. Unsurprisingly, they can't. The other problem is there's no such thing as "all-in" for Terran. 5 rax should be an all-in play, yet Terran can expand while doing it. Absurdity.
I agree some of the problem does lie in the fact that its EXTREMELY difficult (and takes luck or a bad T) for Z to scout at all. Honestly though Morrow used the opening against Dimaga, I am 100% sure that Idra knew the 5 rax reaper build was coming more often then not and went with an opening to "counter" it (sadly the zerg version of counter is not get fucked quite as hard). Is it a little imbalanced? Yep, Z doesn't have a real way to defend against it (even Morrow admits it and I'd try and guess what I think Idras opinion of the opening would be but I don't want to get banned). But this really wasn't meant to dwell on whats balanced or not just to say in my opinion Morrow and Idra both played very very impressively. I don't think the 5 rax reaper is meant to be abusive towards idras "mechanical nature" as he used it with great effect against Dimaga who is regarded as much more flexible then Idra. It's really exciting to watch such high caliber players play games though! The 5 rax reaper opening takes an impressive amount of micro and I think morrow did an excellent job of controlling it (much better then he did against Dimaga at least I think he kind of folded the blistering sands game with bad micro). I've had 2 mid diamond terrans try this build against me as a Z since IEM and its executed so bad that its a laughable strategy heh it's definitely not a "no skill" build in any way. In fact I think it's so strongly tied to skill if you have enough its currently undefendable.
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Isn´t anyone worried by the fact, that no protoss emerged from the group stage? All "T are imba" thoughts aside, did no one notice that all groups had 2 T, 1 Z and 1 P, and every group had 1 T & 1 Z advancing. That actually means that all Z except Artosis advanced.
I find exceptionally terrifying that White-Ra lost 2 times 0-2. I have not seen Madfrog - White-Ra yet, but I think we can now in hindsight agree that Colossus is a bad decision against T, as high templar counter or partly counter every terran unit with exception of Vikings Tanks and Hellions, while colossus are are especially helpless against air. Yet every terran air unit has 200 energy except for the Viking which, originally, was planned as factory unit.
Was it bad decision making from toss players, or is there another reason no P advanced?
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I do not get how come Z was 2nd and 3rd place and terran is OP, also no protoss thru the top8, but hey, it´s the players not race... also I cant believe that banshee rine transition works, man it must be micro oriented to hell (dont even have courage to try against toss ... )
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I loved his TvP but at the same time, this tourney showcased so little of it, and it felt like I had seen this "new" tvp in the form of various other user streams. I'm not qualified to say if this is because players haven't quite figured out ways around it (yet?), but to me, it clearly favored Morrow's agressive style.
TvT, I like this matchup because so much is possible, I think morrow showcased better aggressive multitasking which produced advantages that he never really let go, good matches to watch for sure.
TvZ... I think these games were setup for drama from the get go. I don't know if Morrow is bashing his own strategies because he is trying to earn some respect from other Zerg players, but I definitively think that people give him too little credit. He read his opponents like books. When you are playing a BO5 and that your first pitch in every game is always roughly the same, doesn't matter how fast you can throw it, people will prepare and practice to hit it. /shrug, can't wait to see the meta play evolve and see how the MLG and GSL turns out .
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after watching the matches, i think the problem with defending against the 5 rax reaper build is that it leaves very little room for error for the zerg, much less so than the terran. great micro from both sides, but i can't help feel that idra had to work much much harder to retain parity with morrow's position, not only at the time of the reaper harass, but also going forward (reacting very quickly to tech switches and such).
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