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Learning from the IEM Winner [spoiler][D] - Page 2

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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dadde
Profile Joined August 2010
Italy314 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-08-23 07:27:05
August 23 2010 07:25 GMT
#21
On August 23 2010 15:15 xPrac wrote:
From the time the mutas pop it's pretty much textbook ZvT


This.
First of all,i'm not a fanboy of IdrA style.Let me explain,I think that he’s one (if not THE) most powerfull occidental player, BUT ,from what I saw in the IEM ,he’s pretty predictable.
I m not saying “yo man,I m a pro ,he did a nab BO so he fucked up,GG thx bye” because I think that ,as I stated before,he’s a really really strong player,but I think that pushing always for a macro-gaming setup can be very risky.
For me,Morrow studied hard the IdrA BO and created an ad-hoc hard counter to prevent him to go where he’ll surely win : the mid-late game.
Morrow knew that he need to finish the game in the first phase.He knew that if he gave IdrA the possibility to expand,then he would be GG for him.
So, my position is that IdrA is something like a perfect robot :
“I do A , then I create B, then I got C and then I win. No matter what my opponent do.I just go straight for this BO.” And this is true,because if you let IdrA expand,90% is GG .
In Morrow BO and openings, Idra found something that broke his gamestyle and just tilted ,like a robot.
No different opening,no different tecniques.
If he fails his master macro-tecnique,he’s done.
I think that Morrow won with this mind-set.Brake the circle.Brake IdrA set and you’ll win because he’ll tilt.
These are just my 2 cents.
Do Well,Fear No One
NuitariSC
Profile Joined July 2010
United States11 Posts
August 23 2010 07:26 GMT
#22
what do u expect. morrow is terran...

User was temp banned for this post.
Truffy
Profile Joined May 2010
United States95 Posts
August 23 2010 07:27 GMT
#23
On August 23 2010 12:04 charlie420247 wrote:
i fucking hate when people say fast FE. i also hate it when people say a player got his FE after getting banshees mmm and a few factory units. wtf gives? do you know what a fe is?

secondly morrow is a korean pro who plays terran what the hell did you expect lol. the top players in sc2 right now are good but there, on average, on par with b/A- iccup players at best.



LOLOLOL everything about this post is wrong except for maybe the fast FE bit. Idra is clearly a solid b iccup player though amirite? Not every player is Boxer and Flash, but top sc2 players definitely have skills. Seriously though please stop posting random incorrect trash.
1a2a3a-->gg
dadde
Profile Joined August 2010
Italy314 Posts
August 23 2010 07:29 GMT
#24
On August 23 2010 16:26 NuitariSC wrote:
what do u expect. morrow is terran...



...

lol. These "Terran OP" posts are becoming a bit boring .I dont even read them anymore,i just pass over.You got something different to say,or its all there?thank you.
Do Well,Fear No One
PhilipJWitow
Profile Joined July 2010
29 Posts
August 23 2010 09:07 GMT
#25
As a Protoss player I was a little disappointed that there were so few Protoss matchups, and for the most part I believe they actually lost a majority of their games.

Nevertheless, I would probably have never watched the games if you didn't mention these things, so thanks anyway for showing me some awesome replays.
Krehlmar
Profile Joined August 2010
Sweden1149 Posts
August 23 2010 09:13 GMT
#26
"Yeah I wen't all reapers which is a build that is unbalanced against zerg" - MorroW.

I'm Swedish but I take no real pride in his win, he did great... but IdrA just couldn't do anything against mass reapers which doesn't make it a player fault but a game fault. That ruins the experience for me.

That and Zerg just has to do way to fucking much to kill of the simplest of terran armies... banelings are 75-25 each which is almost as much as a reaper... just to blow up a coupple of basic terran marines. Whilst uppgraded helions roast zerglings by the dussins.
My Comment Doesnt Matter Because No One Reads It
dadde
Profile Joined August 2010
Italy314 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-08-23 09:35:29
August 23 2010 09:34 GMT
#27
ok,but i still dont understand one,damn,thing :

15.000€ prize.
1 race OP.
IdrA's watching to become a Professional.


----> why you dont go Terran?why he choses Zerg? Let me say you guys: i m not defending T,i just say that these guys are playing to EARN money..so,if this unbalance is so enhanced,why they still choice undepowered (UP) races?
I think that in a tournament,when such amount money are running around,you MUST chose not what you like,but what make you win those money.
This thought make me dubbious about balance issues..
Do Well,Fear No One
Yeran
Profile Joined April 2010
Germany23 Posts
August 23 2010 10:02 GMT
#28
@dadde:
Several reasons honestly. First off very few people like to watch mirror matches all the time, so if every pro switches terran prices would drop by some great amount (among with interest).
Also blizzard stated several times there will be balance patches. If you keep switching races your overall performance will be lower (thats why there are hardly any pros chosing random). Minor imbalances only help at about equal skill level.
So there are two long-term reasons not to switch, while it might seem to be a good decision right now.

Note I'm not saying anything about current balance. I'll leave that one to others.
hoovehand
Profile Joined April 2010
United Kingdom542 Posts
August 23 2010 10:13 GMT
#29
korean terrans did all of these before morrow.

intotherainbow was doing fast banshee vs toss like 4 months ago?

and bunkering bottom of ramp/reaper plays are ancient.


morrow's success in TvT was that he used a bunch of different builds. that matchup is about being unpredictable to get an advantage.
hoovehand
Profile Joined April 2010
United Kingdom542 Posts
August 23 2010 10:20 GMT
#30
On August 23 2010 18:13 Krehlmar wrote:
"Yeah I wen't all reapers which is a build that is unbalanced against zerg" - MorroW.

I'm Swedish but I take no real pride in his win, he did great... but IdrA just couldn't do anything against mass reapers which doesn't make it a player fault but a game fault. That ruins the experience for me.

That and Zerg just has to do way to fucking much to kill of the simplest of terran armies... banelings are 75-25 each which is almost as much as a reaper... just to blow up a coupple of basic terran marines. Whilst uppgraded helions roast zerglings by the dussins.


i find this to be quite a naive and leaky argument.

hole one: morrow won a few TvZ games without using reaper against both dimaga and idra.
hole two: banelings are 50-25 each, and if they're 'so-so' then why does dimaga make them the staple unit in his army versus bio? (answer: their damage is INSANE)
hole three: getting lings roasted by upgraded hellions is exactly the same as a terran running his marine ball into a stack of banelings.
Shakes
Profile Joined April 2010
Australia557 Posts
August 23 2010 10:22 GMT
#31
Looking at the replays between game two and three, a big difference is that Idra is able to pick off more reapers in game 2 so the initial harass has to end earlier and the transition into an expansion happens about a minute and a half sooner. This was the difference between Morrow having two reactor barracks up in game 3 that he didn't have in game 2. Perhaps that influenced Idra's decision to go with a spire vs banelings? I don't think it was the gas that was the deciding factor, he has one gas at his natural at the end of the harass in both games.
Wolf
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Korea (South)3290 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-08-23 10:32:29
August 23 2010 10:32 GMT
#32
+ Show Spoiler +
On August 23 2010 15:15 xPrac wrote:
Here's a long post in case your view of this series is something along the lines of: "oh shit morrow is korean." Also, thanks to the posters who provide the thoughts like "terran OP." Really helpful guys.

I wasn't really an IdrA fan until after watching the IEM finals. People seem to focus an exceptional amount on MorroW's play, which didn't seem like anything special to me besides spamming reapers from 5 rax. I chose to focus on IdrA's play, which was much more impressive to me since it's probably equal if not even more helpful to review the loser's play just as much as the winner's.

In Game 1 IdrA was essentially caught off guard by the mass amount of reapers. All he had when MorroW began his aggression were lings, which obviously are atrocious against mass reapers. This game just looks like IdrA playing standard while MorroW does an aggressive BO and pressures IdrA's standard play into submission.

Game 2 it really looks like MorroW's aggression was later since IdrA doesn't do any large build order changes but when the reapers start trying to harass IdrA basically has roaches out and even if you micro and kill a few roaches (which basically takes forever) you're not really doing anything useful. Spending 500/500 to kill like maybe five roaches (375/125) doesn't really get you anywhere fast.

The harassment basically did absolutely nothing in Game 2 and IdrA was able to get some creep spread out and then get the roach speed upgrade, essentially ending the usefulness of reapers completely. Obviously MorroW starts pounding some marauders, but IdrA throws down a spire at around 10 minutes and proceeds to dominate MorroW. This is the only game we see mutas from IdrA and also the only win in the series. I don't really think this is a coincidence. This five barracks reaper build invests extremely heavily to harass and if it is ineffective like in game 2 then you pretty much only have the option of pounding marauders and marines since you've already thrown down 5+ tech lab barracks and are behind on basically everything (stim/combatshield/+1/vacs). If mutas come out you are pretty screwed. From the time the mutas pop it's pretty much textbook ZvT domination and MorroW knows he's pretty behind so he just does a pointless allin with SCVs, since it's not 15 minutes into the game and banelings won't instantly kill all of them. The ghost transition was cute but if you're on two gas and pounding ghosts and marines you better have some seriously strong micro if you think that is actually going to work.against roach/bane/muta/infestor.

Game 3 is the momentum game, whoever wins this is obviously up 2-1 in the tournament while the loser has to play defensively in game 4. The openings are the exact same as they have been for the first two but the reapers' effectiveness is pretty much the same as Game 2. What's the difference between game 3 and game 2 then? At 10 minutes instead of throwing down a spire, IdrA has just pretty much started building an extractor at his nat. He is really behind on gas and basically allows MorroW too much time to recover from his econ-trashing opening. His CC hasn't even landed at 10 minutes. At 11 minutes IdrA throws down a baneling nest behind his natural (he still doesn't have the 2nd extractor at his nat). Thirty seconds later MorroW scans the baneilng nest and does a great play, killing it at 12 minutes before it finishes, setting back IdrA a huge amount. I was pretty disappointed when IdrA threw down the baneling nest at 11 minutes instead of a spire, but he got the 2nd gas in his main extremely late and his 3rd gas at his nat late too so it's not like he could even keep up muta production.

Let's take a look at one thing now. Obviously MorroW's baneling nest jack was a great play, but if we go back to Game 3 and take a look at where IdrA places his spire, we'll see that the spire is in a GREAT position. It's next to the ramp and it would be suicide for reapers to get there since they basically have to walk through IdrA's army. MorroW actually did scan the spire as well so it's not like he didn't know it was there. From this we pretty much learn two major things: actually get gas so you can tech and don't put your tech blatantly where it can get killed. You see it in game 3 here, you see it in tester vs STC game 2.

Obviously IdrA's mindset was rattled by MorroW's build order in game 3, which I thought was surprising since he basically crushed MorroW in game 2 and had the momentum. It really looks like IdrA was thinking something like "wow this dude's doing the same retarded shit three games in a row? what a ******" and then getting thrown off his game. Obviously this is a great mindgame by MorroW which was the direct set up for Game 4.

Game 4: IdrA gets unlucky and doesn't scout a timing attack. The only thing that matters here is MorroW's great transition from spamming the same build order three games in a row to a massive timing attack to take a 3-1 win in the finals. MorroW shows excellent BO5 play here and took the win.

To me this series was more of a testament to how good IdrA really is (could be) than anything else. He pretty much crushed MorroW in game 2. This wasn't exactly unexpected since we can take a look at the maps: in game 1 IdrA's nat was pretty much wide open up front combined with his unfamiliarity with the 5RR BO. Game 2 on metalop had IdrA's nat pretty much away from T, which is usually extremely hard to deal with for the T in that type of spawn location since Z can take the nat and the third so easily and expand away from T and it looked like textbook Z win. Game 3 IdrA's defense was still solid like Game 2, but it looked to me like his mindset wasn't at 100% and got behind on gas/tech, exactly what harassment is supposed to do to your econ.

MorroW definitely brought in a new strategy. I don't personally like how badly it crushes your econ but it's definitely suited against a heavy macro player like IdrA to throw him off his game. I'm not entirely sure if it's imbalanced but it's pretty clear that it works better on some maps than others and with the essentially trashy map design we have currently I don't like to call things imbalanced until there's actually been a lot of games played with the strategy.

I'm gonna be honest though, IdrA took out sSKS in a best of five in king of beta tournament, capping it with a nearly flawless display in game 5. I honestly think there's no way MorroW can beat sSKS in tournament so I'm inclined to consider IdrA a stronger player overall. I don't actually like IdrA's arrogance, but I can see how that makes for better drama...

gg to both players.

If you actually read this post, then thanks for your time.


Really good read. This makes several good points. Hopefully most people will take the time to read this. IdrA definitely played exceptionally well, and you highlighted a lot of great things that he did that many of us may have overlooked.
Commentatorhttp://twitter.com/proxywolf
TL+ Member
dadde
Profile Joined August 2010
Italy314 Posts
August 23 2010 10:36 GMT
#33
On August 23 2010 19:02 Yeran wrote:
@dadde:
Several reasons honestly. First off very few people like to watch mirror matches all the time, so if every pro switches terran prices would drop by some great amount (among with interest).
Also blizzard stated several times there will be balance patches. If you keep switching races your overall performance will be lower (thats why there are hardly any pros chosing random). Minor imbalances only help at about equal skill level.
So there are two long-term reasons not to switch, while it might seem to be a good decision right now.

Note I'm not saying anything about current balance. I'll leave that one to others.


i don't agree for the first reason,because none of the players were interested in the future prizes,they were there to win the present one...so,i think that many pro doesnt switch because of the attitude in race big plans/macro-micro managment and their old habbits inBW.
About the second..i agree with you,but i d like to find out an old link of wikiwaka about "soon" Blizzard definition..
Do Well,Fear No One
Foomnz
Profile Joined August 2010
New Zealand36 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-08-23 11:01:34
August 23 2010 10:53 GMT
#34
On August 23 2010 19:20 hoovehand wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 23 2010 18:13 Krehlmar wrote:
"Yeah I wen't all reapers which is a build that is unbalanced against zerg" - MorroW.

I'm Swedish but I take no real pride in his win, he did great... but IdrA just couldn't do anything against mass reapers which doesn't make it a player fault but a game fault. That ruins the experience for me.

That and Zerg just has to do way to fucking much to kill of the simplest of terran armies... banelings are 75-25 each which is almost as much as a reaper... just to blow up a coupple of basic terran marines. Whilst uppgraded helions roast zerglings by the dussins.


i find this to be quite a naive and leaky argument.

hole one: morrow won a few TvZ games without using reaper against both dimaga and idra.
hole two: banelings are 50-25 each, and if they're 'so-so' then why does dimaga make them the staple unit in his army versus bio? (answer: their damage is INSANE)
hole three: getting lings roasted by upgraded hellions is exactly the same as a terran running his marine ball into a stack of banelings.


With respect I disagree

#1 yeah those games he use hellions or banshee's instead...same effect..crush the Z early game economy while being immune to counter because of wall and auto repair ( the game Idra fast countered against Tarson was only do-able because the of back door on blistering sands.
when he tried on Xel'naga against Morrow the choke allowed MorroW to crush it with like 4 Maruders)


#2 yeah baneling are good against bio...but the best you can hope for is an army trade...ever!
the unit does not allow for a win its just a reset
I would prefer that a roach/hydra/ling army composition would be as useful against Terran bio...but its not.....lol

3# and its not exacly the same as hellions roasting Zerglings is it?????? lol
your hellions don't all self destruct after they own 30 Zerglings .....
Oleksandr
Profile Joined July 2010
United States227 Posts
August 23 2010 11:07 GMT
#35
On August 23 2010 15:15 xPrac wrote:
What's the difference between game 3 and game 2 then? At 10 minutes instead of throwing down a spire, IdrA has just pretty much started building an extractor at his nat.


I hope nobody actually takes you seriously here, because that is a horrible analysis.

In game 2, Morrow could have easily won when he had a dozen marauders and spire was still 50% morphing but Morrow decided to wait for nothing and let Idra get the upper hand.

In game 3, Idra couldn't have went for spire because of the heavy reaper pressure. Morrow had a better micro than in Game 3; and Idra had to spent a lot more into standing army to keep the reapers at bay. So yeah, big surprise, spire never came.


Whoever really wants to understand the replays between Idra and Morrow, needs to notice that Zerg does not get a "counter" to speed reapers until speed Roaches. It is clear from replays that slow Roaches on creep are useless and with good micro, a handful of reapers, destroy them. Only with speed and creep do Roaches finally push those cheesy reapers back.

So lets summarize. Speed Reaper = Barracks + 50/25 addon + 50/50 speed reapers who own everything up to Zerg's Lair and Speed Roach upgrade = 150/100 lair + 100/100 roach speed.

How wonderful. Thank you, Blizzard.
Idra: good sir, you appear to be somewhat lacking in intelligence. please refrain from posting until this is remedied, since it renders your opinions slightly less than correct and has a tendency to irritate more informed forum-goers.
Arir
Profile Joined May 2010
Finland60 Posts
August 23 2010 11:36 GMT
#36
[QUOTE]On August 23 2010 16:24 JHancho wrote:
The thing I can't fathom, and maybe someone can help me out with this, is why did IdrA put his Ultra Cavern at his third, which was on MorroW's side of the map? I don't think it was game-breaking, QUOTE]

That was THE "oh shit!" situation when i watched the game. Ultra Cavern fell like 5 seconds before he got armor upgrade from there. I dont think those ultras never got that upgrade.

It was very crucial mistake and that propaply made idra type out from the game.
Iscariott
Profile Joined August 2010
United States17 Posts
August 23 2010 12:56 GMT
#37
I'm a terrible starcraft player, very new, and very green. But I find that every single game ever played involving Idra starts the exact same way, regardless of if it is working or not. I know there is a reason he opens the way he does, and that other openings have their own possibly bigger problems. But it seemed to me like he was trying to brow beat a build order into working against an opening that is very strong against it.

I know terran has 52 different strong openings, and Idra's opening is probably the best against most of them. But with what he was facing in the finals consistently I felt sort of like he was expecting his 'better mechanics' to allow his BO to work when he maybe should have switched things up and let his better mechanics survive the downfalls of another play. It just seems to me that being as predictable as he is will lead to this kind of problem regardless of how good reapers or anything else is at the time.

Anyway flame on noob telling idra what to do I know.
dadde
Profile Joined August 2010
Italy314 Posts
August 23 2010 13:03 GMT
#38
i agree with you Iscariott.
As i stated before,idra (that is,i repeat,a GREAT player) played like a robot.

At the first counter to his opening,he tilted. That s my opinion,i dont want to flame on Idra,i love his game-style and i dont want to judge his choices. Just analizing IEM's finals.
Do Well,Fear No One
hoovehand
Profile Joined April 2010
United Kingdom542 Posts
August 23 2010 13:14 GMT
#39
On August 23 2010 19:53 Foomnz wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 23 2010 19:20 hoovehand wrote:
On August 23 2010 18:13 Krehlmar wrote:
"Yeah I wen't all reapers which is a build that is unbalanced against zerg" - MorroW.

I'm Swedish but I take no real pride in his win, he did great... but IdrA just couldn't do anything against mass reapers which doesn't make it a player fault but a game fault. That ruins the experience for me.

That and Zerg just has to do way to fucking much to kill of the simplest of terran armies... banelings are 75-25 each which is almost as much as a reaper... just to blow up a coupple of basic terran marines. Whilst uppgraded helions roast zerglings by the dussins.


i find this to be quite a naive and leaky argument.

hole one: morrow won a few TvZ games without using reaper against both dimaga and idra.
hole two: banelings are 50-25 each, and if they're 'so-so' then why does dimaga make them the staple unit in his army versus bio? (answer: their damage is INSANE)
hole three: getting lings roasted by upgraded hellions is exactly the same as a terran running his marine ball into a stack of banelings.


With respect I disagree

#1 yeah those games he use hellions or banshee's instead...same effect..crush the Z early game economy while being immune to counter because of wall and auto repair ( the game Idra fast countered against Tarson was only do-able because the of back door on blistering sands.
when he tried on Xel'naga against Morrow the choke allowed MorroW to crush it with like 4 Maruders)


#2 yeah baneling are good against bio...but the best you can hope for is an army trade...ever!
the unit does not allow for a win its just a reset
I would prefer that a roach/hydra/ling army composition would be as useful against Terran bio...but its not.....lol

3# and its not exacly the same as hellions roasting Zerglings is it?????? lol
your hellions don't all self destruct after they own 30 Zerglings .....


sorry but if terran doesn't use some kind of harrass versus zerg early game then he's at a massive disadvantage. zerg are not forced to early harrass, they're forced to hold on against early harrass. which puts them in the same boat essentially.

the point about the hellion/baneling analogy was that you DO NOT lose millions of marines or zerglings in those situations otherwise you're a bad player.

you also don't seem to understand that if you control your units well, you don't need to trade banelings against marines. it only takes a handful of banelings to destroy an entire army of marines.... that's not even close to an army trade.
Flyingdutchman
Profile Joined March 2009
Netherlands858 Posts
August 23 2010 13:18 GMT
#40
On August 23 2010 16:24 JHancho wrote:
His point isn't about grammar. It's about usage of a term. And he's absolutely correct. An FE is an FE when it's fast. Not after 10+ minutes. Then it's just an expansion.


Well, people just use the abbreviation FE instead of E for clarity. It sounds kinda weird to say "He has just taken his E" wich would imply the guy is at a rave instead of playing a video game :D

/jk
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