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Awesomo
Netherlands206 Posts
it was a PvP, and i got away with expanding, while that's really not done in that matchup. the replay (i know i played really badly, and my opponent played even worse, but it's just to try it out): http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/60452-1v1-protoss-blistering-sands | ||
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BOOWOO
United States83 Posts
On August 21 2010 03:02 Ryuu314 wrote: Seems okay, but going for carriers just screams "attack me!" I'd imagine it'd fall really fast to early marauder aggression. Also, stimmed marines with raven support will crush this build very quickly. PDD shuts down both stalkers AND pheonixes, while stimmed marines eat interceptors for breakfast, ie faster than you can rebuild them. Early Marauder/Immortal pushes will definitely be the key to breaking this before the Phoenix harass can do significant damage. I haven't played enough games to tell if I can hold such early aggression. Test games against the AI timing attacks (~6 Marines and ~5 Marauders at around 35 food) had good results if I was quick and accurate with the forcefields. The early-ish Sentry should allow for two forcefields, and that maybe be enough time to warp in enough units off 3 gates to hold a ramp. If not, I haven't even tested bringing the Phoenix back to help with the early break either. I usually have them rallied outside my opponents base to start harassing quicker. Maybe I should leave them rallied in a hidden location near my base to help with such a potential break. As of now, I don't feel like this build is autolose to midgame timining attacks. That may be proven wrong though. I'm more worried about attacks just as the expo is up and running (~70 food mark). If it is too fragile, scouting will be the key in order to transition before committing too heavily. Also, like I said in the OP: 1. I'm aware that this probably isn't a "standard" build, but more of a fragile, risk/reward, situational one with potentially powerful results. 2. I know there are units comps that beat it. There have to be. But the Phoenix also give you a good scouting option, so you can adjust as needed. | ||
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BOOWOO
United States83 Posts
On August 21 2010 03:18 Awesomo wrote: I just tried this the first time on ladder, and won the game (opponent wasn't that good, tho). it was a PvP, and i got away with expanding, while that's really not done in that matchup. the replay (i know i played really badly, and my opponent played even worse, but it's just to try it out): http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/60452-1v1-protoss-blistering-sands What league was this? Reminds me of how it looked for me the first few times I tried it out  Some of the timings were a bit off (and you definitely should have killed that Probe in your base when you saw it with the Phoenix, or earlier with a zealot), but this is a decent example of how this is supposed to work. You missed the third Gateway, which delays your expo until after the first round of Phoenix harass, but leaves you with a little bit of safety incase of a push. But anyways, see how the Phoenix harrass forced his army to stay at home with his army and make cannons? That bought you time to expo, slowed any potential push/expo from him down, and let you get carriers up? That is the design, and it counters Robo tech HARD. I personally would wait for 2-3 Carriers before moving out, and microing your Stalkers in that enagement with Carrier support definitely would have helped, but you have the basic premise down for sure. Honestly, pretty well done for your first try. Now just work on smoothing out the timings and it will feel even better. | ||
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Skyro
United States1823 Posts
In terms of stargate openings you should also consider going early voids as they can be very effective. If they counter your voids with vikings or something the option to switch to phoenix is always there. | ||
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Awesomo
Netherlands206 Posts
What league was this? i'm diamond and my opponent was plat Honestly, pretty well done for your first try. Now just work on smoothing out the timings and it will feel even better. yeah, i really felt like a lot of things were off, like my +2, skipping blink and moving out with just 1 carrier, but i think i'll get a hang on it eventually. furthermore, i really like how you can just barely hold a push before you move out, makes you feel all pro. | ||
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Nullius Vaz
United States3 Posts
I never tried carriers against Terran due to a lot of marines annihilating interceptors but this similar stradegy works wonders against Zerg with lots instead of stalkers.. What I do is if I'm on a map with an easily defended expo (delta squad is my favorite for this) I wall him in at his ramp with 2 pylons and a cannon, throw off his Bo, snipe OL with pheonix and tech +1 ground and +2 air. I sometimes use voidrays to harass because that makes him commit to hydras. I know people say hydras melt carriers but a critical mass of +2 carriers with +1 chargelots obliterate. By then he'll try to transition into corruptors but will have a hard time after so many hydras/pheonix harassing geysers early. And even if he does I'll have like 5. Wg ready to reinforce with stalkers. Also if you can delay for a mothership I find it makes this build so much more powerful just for the love of god snipe nydus canals when you're vulnerable around 60-80 food lol | ||
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Sakray
France2198 Posts
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Erik.TheRed
United States1655 Posts
i haven't tried the build for myself quite yet, but i think it is important not to neglect the void ray as just getting one or two can really bolster either an offensive or defensive army. keep in mind that just one void ray can keep T pinned to his base for some time. so to recap, how i might like to see this build: start with 1 or 2 gate stalker pressure, shuts down reapers and forces marauders. get 1 phoenix out to scout. if T is going 1/1/1 continue with phoenix harass/expo/carriers as described in OP. if he's going for a bio push get a 3rd gate up and play defensively at ramp, CB a void ray if there are a lot of mauraders . marine/ghost push could be tricky but with guardian shield shouldn't be impossible to hold. | ||
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rust.oxide
United States94 Posts
I tried it a handful of times against AI but my Toss is very weak haha | ||
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SetStndbySmn
United States657 Posts
Overall I like the idea of trying to work carriers into my play, I just need to get more comfortable with expanding smoothly to support it. | ||
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Torture
Canada221 Posts
He tried to mass marines but it didn't even matter. I got a Mothership for shits and giggles but it died instantly. -_- A decent ground army supported by a few Carriers is stronger than most people think. | ||
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fishball232
United States90 Posts
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whateversclever
United States197 Posts
Not that I'm necessarily doubting the Carriers, but the damage upgrade can be negated fairly easily. Though, it probably would shift the Vikings vs Carriers battle a lot since I highly doubt they'll get armor for Vikings. | ||
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Yokoblue
Canada594 Posts
Other than that, surviving will be hard put its worth a try... GL | ||
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Acritter
Syria7637 Posts
On August 22 2010 13:44 Yokoblue wrote: A weak side of your build is... No detector for almost 3/4 of the game... Other than that, surviving will be hard put its worth a try... GL I assume a few Zealots could be cut to make a Forge and some Cannons, if Phoenix scout reveals cloaking. The smaller army would be balanced out by the loss of money from ineffective cloaking. I wouldn't say this build is a great one to have as your starting game plan, but rather a very solid choice after scouting far positions and/or a highly defensive, economic build from your opponent. If things seem more aggressive, then a different build might be better. Your build has the charm of being quite neutral up to 22 food, allowing for a free switch if needed (and weakening scouting). | ||
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TheGreenMachine
United States730 Posts
Right as your carrier pops out you have about 400 minerals so you can expand with your new firepower. This build has put me at even footing with 1 rax expands, and 10 marine 5 marauder stim pushes. It is like a voidray thats not bad vs unstimmed marines. Its expensive and slow but its more firepower and great at harassing. +attack upgrades do scale very well on carriers, +1 is 20% more damage I typically go storm and charge after setting up my expo because the best counter to this build is mass stimmed marines or a TON of vikings, so storm/blink is good against either of those situations. Get the occasional phoenix to scout the terran base. Be aware he may go banshee so get a robo as you expand even if its only for observers. | ||
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Darkstar_X
United States197 Posts
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Chiburi
United States166 Posts
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No0n
United States355 Posts
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Skyro
United States1823 Posts
Vs Zerg it's tricky as corruptors armor and hp is hard for carriers to eat through unless you can outpace his armor with your weapon upgrades. Carriers do surprisingly well vs hydras. Main thing here is if you can handle the zerg pressure while you're teching, which IMO isn't possible w/o teching colossi or HT vs hydras. Vs Protoss is again the issue of pressure. Most PvP already end up having late expos due to highly aggressive 1-base plays not allowing expos, I can't see how you will be able to have the time and resources necessary. Though if you can get a sizable carrier fleet up it is very hard for protoss to stop due to their weak AA options. | ||
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