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OMG BFFS
![[image loading]](http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20080801042532/starcraft/images/6/6f/Phoenix_SC2_Game1.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/starcraft/images/thumb/9/9f/Stalker_SC2_render2.jpg/200px-Stalker_SC2_render2.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20090516031105/starcraft/images/thumb/a/a8/Carrier_SC2_DevRend1.jpg/200px-Carrier_SC2_DevRend1.jpg)
EDIT: Replay added and general strategy/BO tweaked:
Replay: http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/61824-1v1-protoss-lost-temple
I know I lost the expo, and my opponent wasn't very good. I was harrassing with my Phoenix right as he pushed, so the Chargelots got were in my face before I could react with FF(remember, only 60 APM here  )
I also shouldn't have gotten the second Stargate, as it didn't see much use and I could have used the Gates to hold the push better. Will try and remember that for next time.
Also, I should have brought my Phoenix back to help with the push. Forgot about them under the pressure .
DISCLAIMER: 600 Plat, 60 APM Laddertoss here
I don't expect this to be a standard build. Maybe it will be. But it is very fun, and can catch people off guard.
I also feel like this build is very map dependant, as it is a very heavy macro/tech build. 4-Player cross positions will be best to deal with rush distance. LT is ideal, because your Nat and Ramp are easy to defend, and Phoenix will help with potential cliff harass.
I'm also aware that every build has a counter. Don't just reply with "but this is countered by x and x unit comps". Of course it is. However, it may be too vulnerable against standard builds. If that's the case, then I'm open to that kind of criticism.
I also don't have any reps just yet, haven't had time to ladder since I've gotten it more refined. Will post them ASAP.
Onward:
After spending the majority of my laddering adventures focusing on 3GateExpand, 2/3GateRobos and 4Gates, I decided it was time to give Stargate tech a shot. Until recently, I hadn't even tried a Stargate opener. I feared my multitasking skills just weren't up to snuff to be able to pull off some sexy Phoenix harass.
I also felt like transitioning out of Stargate tech wasn't going to be as smooth, because I assumed the word of mouth and forumspeak I'd heard about Carriers being medicore for the cost was true.
But one day, I decided to give Phoenix into Carrier a shot...and I was pleasantly surprised with the results.
Theory behind the build: (New stuff added, more detailed)
This build, which I feel will work best against Terran (also very good against a Robo Toss), is designed to take advantage of the awesome power that upgrades add to Interceptors. (+2 per, +16 total for fully loaded Carrier at level 1. +4 and +32 total at level 2). Seriously, the upgrade scaling on Interceptors is INSANE, and +2 Carriers do a TON of damage.
The reason I think it will work best against Terran is beacuse it will force lots of Vikings, which is where the Stalkers fit in. Stalkers, as well as the Phoenix will help support, and the Viking count will mean fewer tanks. A few Graviton beams can help make the relatively low tank count even easier to deal with.
If they go with lots of Marauders to deal with the Stalkers, it becomes a micro fight. Blink into good positions to avoid Marauders and help deal with the Vikings. Carriers giving vision on the high ground could definitely lead to good positioning options for the Stalkers. Use the Carriers to try and whittle down the Marauder force.
The ups also give the Phoenix a boost. Keep them alive during the harass and they'll provide some nice support later in the push.
I use Chronoboost primarily on army production early, as opposed to Probes, to help defend my ramp against early pushes and get Phoenix out faster.
The Phoenix harrass helps buy time to get an expansion running and force static defenses to slow the opponent down.
Once my expo is up, I begin focusing on Carrier production and upgrades, then get the Blink and Stalkers running.
Very rough build order: (EDIT 8/22)
After fighting through tons of cheeses and all ins, usually winning or losing before I got to Carriers, I tweaked the strat a little bit. I decided rushing Stargate before a 2nd Gateway was leaving me too vulnerable. So I now open with 2 gates into Stargate, and try and scout more actively with my inital Phoenix. Before, I was waiting till I had 2-3 before I showed them and started harassing.
9 Pylon (Scout)
13 Gate (Stop Chronoboosting Probes after Gate goes up)
14 Gas
16 Pylon (Move Probe out at 15 to get Pylon out of Scan range)
18 Core
19 Stalker (Boost)
22 Gateway
22 WG research (Boost)
23 Zealot (Boost)
25 Pylon
25 Stargate
27 Sentry (Boost)
27 Phoenix (Continue production as desired. I found 4 to be a nice sweet spot. Begin harrass at 2 or 3)
30 Stalker (Boost)
34 Gate
36 Pylon
38 Stalker x2
At this point, Phoenix production is about wrapped up and you can begin harrassing. You'll have a 3rd gate almost finished to get extra troops out if necessary. Use forcefield to defend your ramp, and go wreck havoc in the mineral lines.
From this point, go with the feel of the game. These suggestions are rough. The ideal goal is to maintain steady Stalker production and keep up the harass without losing any Phoenix.
Constantly poke back in to scout and abuse any weak spots, but its more important to keep the Phoenix alive than suicide them in to try and get an extra worker kill or two. They will provide nice support during the push that follows.
~40 Nexus (Use a boost or two on Probes to get more for transfer. Also, get both Assimilators immidiately running after completion. Its gas heavy from here on out)
~48 Fleet Beacon
~60 Carrier (Boost)
~65 +1 Air Attack (Continually boost this, and get to +2)
~75 Twilight Council/Graviton Catapult research (Boost)
Timing Push:
The ideal push is 5 Carriers with +2 along with a nice-sized Stalker force, with a few Zealots/Sentries mixed in if desired. You can also go with a 3 Carrier push with +1, but considering how the upgrades make Carriers exponentially better, I like to wait for the +2 and more Carriers.
Hopefully your Phoenix made it out of the harass alive, and they can Graviton key units or help focus down enemy air support during the push.
Don't forget to micro this push! Too many Tanks/Marauders? Blink those Stalkers outta there and let the Carriers go to work! Too many Vikings? Blink up and Focus them down! Carriers are also awesome at focusing down Immortals, because they don't activate the Hardened Shield (pretty sure).
How to beat it:
1. A strong 1Base all-in, very early aggression, or maybe just a well-timed attack right before the Phoenix harass starts would probably do the trick.
2. A good timing attack at around 70 food, before the expo is fully saturated and before the Carriers start to pop.
How to stay alive:
vs1. Scouting obviously is important here, which is why I go on 9. Since you have to get such an early 2nd gas and commit to early tech, if you sense lots of early aggression with the Probe scout, just abandon this build and go with something more standard. A long-lasting probe scout is extremely important here.
If you sense something relatively normal, then Forcefields will be the key to surviving a standard-ish 35-40 food push. Since you are cheap on the Gateways and slow on WG tech, you have to cut Chronoboost on Probes early. Use CB on the Gateways to get an early Sentry and enough Stalkers to have a solid ramp advantage.
vs2. The goal is to have this push significantly slowed by the Phoenix harass. If you can force static defenses and keep his army at home to ward off the Phoenix, you should be able to safely expand and tech to Carriers. At least that is the goal, and I have had it work.
Now, go give it a shot! I would love to see lots of replays of people trying it in here.
I'll try not to rage too hard at the criticism, too.
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I am not sure how much input I can give. But, as a toss player I see this being susceptible to a few strong standard plays from terran. Mainly with such a fast expansion and a hard tech path you would need to watch out for a 3 rax push or even the 1/1/1 could give you some trouble.
Its iffy but if the Terrans open 1/1/1 they can adjust to such fast carriers with vikings before your blink stalkers come out. However, that situation comes down to micro and skill. I would just be worried about strong one pase or 2 base timing pushes before your numbers are up. Mainly a very strong 2 base Bio push before you have big carrier numbers.
Ghost/Marine would also definitely stop your expand and maybe straight up kill you for such a fast expand/tech. Then again you can scout well with the phoenix and adjust to their BO.
The carrier switch is a good idea however im not sure how viable it is to rush them so quickly before you have a sizeable army + interceptors are rather expensive to support on 2 bases. Their also quite fragile in small numbers unlike BC's that can be repaired
But, I do like the idea and will need to give it a try. However, the main concerns are simply aggresive terran play. Im glad you posted this and its nice to see some experimentation.
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This build sounds really fun =D
I can definitely see it being used against banshee openings that I feel are pretty common. I just got rolled by one today...
But as the previous poster said, this build would be pretty hard-pressed against early aggression, as you'd be dumping a lot of resources into tech. The main unit composition (Stalkers/Carriers) are fairly expensive units. Adding that to the cost of blink, graviton catapult, and upgrades, you'll definitely be having a difficult time holding off aggressive pushes from any race.
But I am glad to see carriers be incorporated into a strategy. They didn't get very much love in the beta, so hopefully you can turn that around (:
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Like the sound of this build, and I've used carriers in PvZ a bit, with varying success. Think it could have some trouble with 3rax builds, as previously mentioned, but the phoenix harass could be the trick to getting past that.
I'll have to try this out a bit.
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This looks nice enough, i'll definitely go try this out.
I am kind of questioning how this buid holds up to pressure right after you get your expo up, but that's probably just because i have a fear of expanding.
anyhow, could you add a replay?
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Would be interesting to see how this fares vs ghostmech. The early expo is probably a bad idea for PvT.
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besides the pressure you might get if this is scouted, add a second forge to your BO and also upgrade the armor at least once.
I think this might get you a whole better stand when a bunch of marines gets to close to the carriers.
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I will be working on getting better quality reps soon. Have been very busy lately and haven't had time to ladder.
I have a two older ladder reps that I could add where the play is very sloppy. They are from when I was winging this build before taking time to try and smooth it out a bit. Both are wins though; one vs terran and one vs protoss.
There is also one pretty good one against the AI where I have to forcefield to barely survive a 35-food-ish food push from the Terran, and then have to survive another push just as my first carrier pops, not too long after the expo is done.
If you think those would be worth watching, I'll throw them in.
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Uh.. where do all your minerals go?
Pheonix and carriers and upgrades are all really gas heavy, and stalkers are gas neutral.
Surely you'll just end up floating ridiculous amounts of minerals with this?
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Not really. I never have a problem keeping the money low during this build. Each production cycle requires 3-4 Pylons and 700 minerals for the Carriers. Add in the 100 minerals for each Carrier's Interceptors and Probe/Stalker production, and I never have a problem.
There is a point right as I'm putting the second Stargate up and start upgrading Blink/Grav Catapult/Air Attack where I get a little gas blocked. In that case I throw down a few more Gateways to prepare for my push. Or you could grab a 3rd.
It runs pretty smoothly to be honest. Risky, but smoothly.
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Honestly, if I ever saw a carrier / phoenix / stalker army as Terran, I would be pretty freakin' scared. Our only real way to fight carriers are with vikings, and they are not dominating b/c they cannot kite (unlike vs BC) and get shredded very quickly. Just a small group of phoenix and stalkers will tip the scales in your favor. I think that I would have to make a huge amount of vikings and add thors, ghosts and marines to stand a chance. Of course, this presumes that I let you survive that long.
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Edit: Just added more to the OP
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I like the idea. Something different to toss into the mix once I'm better with my standard builds. I'll have to keep a bookmark here.
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The mothership could be extremely handy to recall just as your carriers run out of most of their shield, not to mention breaking pushes with vortex.
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This sounds really good for team play. I'll try it out!
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I actually was trying this build alot in teams two nights ago. I don't feel it works very well for teams, because defending your ramp and the hard teching you have to do in this build leaves your teammate in a very bad spot against two ground armies.
It worked against weaker players (my teammate isn't very good, so we're in Silver 2v2), but against stronger players I don't see it being very feasible.
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are freaking kidding me!?
I've been working on a very similar strategy for the past couple of weeks. I've actually had some success against Zerg with this; I'm currently like 12-1 against my practice partners and 2-0 on the ladder with it.
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Upgrades really really help carriers.
Dps increase based on upgrade for a fully loaded carrier (8 interceptors):
{0..3} upgrades:
[26.67, 32.0, 37.33, 42.67]
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Seems okay, but going for carriers just screams "attack me!"
I'd imagine it'd fall really fast to early marauder aggression. Also, stimmed marines with raven support will crush this build very quickly. PDD shuts down both stalkers AND pheonixes, while stimmed marines eat interceptors for breakfast, ie faster than you can rebuild them.
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I'd rather get my gas at 12, and get one or two stalkers, rather then the two zealots.
Other then that, sounds like a fun strategy. I will try it out, for sure.
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I just tried this the first time on ladder, and won the game (opponent wasn't that good, tho).
it was a PvP, and i got away with expanding, while that's really not done in that matchup.
the replay (i know i played really badly, and my opponent played even worse, but it's just to try it out):
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/60452-1v1-protoss-blistering-sands
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On August 21 2010 03:02 Ryuu314 wrote:
Seems okay, but going for carriers just screams "attack me!"
I'd imagine it'd fall really fast to early marauder aggression. Also, stimmed marines with raven support will crush this build very quickly. PDD shuts down both stalkers AND pheonixes, while stimmed marines eat interceptors for breakfast, ie faster than you can rebuild them.
Early Marauder/Immortal pushes will definitely be the key to breaking this before the Phoenix harass can do significant damage.
I haven't played enough games to tell if I can hold such early aggression. Test games against the AI timing attacks (~6 Marines and ~5 Marauders at around 35 food) had good results if I was quick and accurate with the forcefields.
The early-ish Sentry should allow for two forcefields, and that maybe be enough time to warp in enough units off 3 gates to hold a ramp.
If not, I haven't even tested bringing the Phoenix back to help with the early break either. I usually have them rallied outside my opponents base to start harassing quicker. Maybe I should leave them rallied in a hidden location near my base to help with such a potential break.
As of now, I don't feel like this build is autolose to midgame timining attacks. That may be proven wrong though. I'm more worried about attacks just as the expo is up and running (~70 food mark).
If it is too fragile, scouting will be the key in order to transition before committing too heavily.
Also, like I said in the OP:
1. I'm aware that this probably isn't a "standard" build, but more of a fragile, risk/reward, situational one with potentially powerful results.
2. I know there are units comps that beat it. There have to be. But the Phoenix also give you a good scouting option, so you can adjust as needed.
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On August 21 2010 03:18 Awesomo wrote:I just tried this the first time on ladder, and won the game (opponent wasn't that good, tho). it was a PvP, and i got away with expanding, while that's really not done in that matchup. the replay (i know i played really badly, and my opponent played even worse, but it's just to try it out): http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/60452-1v1-protoss-blistering-sands
What league was this?
Reminds me of how it looked for me the first few times I tried it out
Some of the timings were a bit off (and you definitely should have killed that Probe in your base when you saw it with the Phoenix, or earlier with a zealot), but this is a decent example of how this is supposed to work.
You missed the third Gateway, which delays your expo until after the first round of Phoenix harass, but leaves you with a little bit of safety incase of a push.
But anyways, see how the Phoenix harrass forced his army to stay at home with his army and make cannons? That bought you time to expo, slowed any potential push/expo from him down, and let you get carriers up? That is the design, and it counters Robo tech HARD.
I personally would wait for 2-3 Carriers before moving out, and microing your Stalkers in that enagement with Carrier support definitely would have helped, but you have the basic premise down for sure.
Honestly, pretty well done for your first try. Now just work on smoothing out the timings and it will feel even better.
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I'm not exactly sure it is a good idea to go into a game thinking you'll be going carriers. I agree they are very underrated and underused but they are gaining some steam with some recent pros using them. They are good vs mech terran and surprisingly effective vs zerg due to hydra's slow speed off creep you can kite pretty well, they melt vs carriers, and due to corruptors short range you can abuse blink stalkers or void rays vs them.
In terms of stargate openings you should also consider going early voids as they can be very effective. If they counter your voids with vikings or something the option to switch to phoenix is always there.
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What league was this?
i'm diamond and my opponent was plat
Honestly, pretty well done for your first try. Now just work on smoothing out the timings and it will feel even better.
yeah, i really felt like a lot of things were off, like my +2, skipping blink and moving out with just 1 carrier, but i think i'll get a hang on it eventually.
furthermore, i really like how you can just barely hold a push before you move out, makes you feel all pro.
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Interesting! My pvt builds (500ish diamond) have been failing a lot to a recent surge in Terran mech against toss and those tanks are enough of a reason to get pheonixs should they push.
I never tried carriers against Terran due to a lot of marines annihilating interceptors but this similar stradegy works wonders against Zerg with lots instead of stalkers..
What I do is if I'm on a map with an easily defended expo (delta squad is my favorite for this) I wall him in at his ramp with 2 pylons and a cannon, throw off his Bo, snipe OL with pheonix and tech +1 ground and +2 air. I sometimes use voidrays to harass because that makes him commit to hydras.
I know people say hydras melt carriers but a critical mass of +2 carriers with +1 chargelots obliterate. By then he'll try to transition into corruptors but will have a hard time after so many hydras/pheonix harassing geysers early. And even if he does I'll have like 5. Wg ready to reinforce with stalkers. Also if you can delay for a mothership I find it makes this build so much more powerful
just for the love of god snipe nydus canals when you're vulnerable around 60-80 food lol
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Haha nice, I'll try it and post my rep for advices later :p
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i like the sound of this strategy a lot, it sounds fresh and well thought out. however, i think that chronoboosting a few early stalkers before going phoenix might be a safer play(stops reaper rush, allows you to take free shots on his wall before the phoenixes come out. might also be a good idea to scout with the first phoenix... if he's going for heavy marauder pressure you have enough time to build some zealots and CB a void ray.
i haven't tried the build for myself quite yet, but i think it is important not to neglect the void ray as just getting one or two can really bolster either an offensive or defensive army. keep in mind that just one void ray can keep T pinned to his base for some time.
so to recap, how i might like to see this build:
start with 1 or 2 gate stalker pressure, shuts down reapers and forces marauders. get 1 phoenix out to scout. if T is going 1/1/1 continue with phoenix harass/expo/carriers as described in OP. if he's going for a bio push get a 3rd gate up and play defensively at ramp, CB a void ray if there are a lot of mauraders . marine/ghost push could be tricky but with guardian shield shouldn't be impossible to hold.
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I would be very interesting in seeing some good replays of this.
I tried it a handful of times against AI but my Toss is very weak haha
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I just tried this in diamond... and it ended up with me just harassing with phoenixes while he smashes his 4gate push into a critical mass of sentry force fields on my ramp. It got to a point where I couldn't stop laughing and pretty much forgot to tech further. He eventually ran out of steam on his push and left... he sure was persistent- he wanted to believe that one day there would not be a forcefield there.
Overall I like the idea of trying to work carriers into my play, I just need to get more comfortable with expanding smoothly to support it.
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I've opened Void Ray against Terran and then transitioned into Carriers before. Mass Zealots as a mineral dump with some stalkers, worked really well.
He tried to mass marines but it didn't even matter.
I got a Mothership for shits and giggles but it died instantly. -_-
A decent ground army supported by a few Carriers is stronger than most people think.
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i'm not a toss player but a terran player. i can see tht the build could work nice for my 2v2 partner who is toss. maybe we could win more idk
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The thing you have to remember though is that the "+16" damage is negated by +1 armor and it's more likely that they'll be pumping their upgrades faster than you.
Not that I'm necessarily doubting the Carriers, but the damage upgrade can be negated fairly easily. Though, it probably would shift the Vikings vs Carriers battle a lot since I highly doubt they'll get armor for Vikings.
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A weak side of your build is... No detector for almost 3/4 of the game...
Other than that, surviving will be hard put its worth a try... GL
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On August 22 2010 13:44 Yokoblue wrote:
A weak side of your build is... No detector for almost 3/4 of the game...
Other than that, surviving will be hard put its worth a try... GL
I assume a few Zealots could be cut to make a Forge and some Cannons, if Phoenix scout reveals cloaking. The smaller army would be balanced out by the loss of money from ineffective cloaking.
I wouldn't say this build is a great one to have as your starting game plan, but rather a very solid choice after scouting far positions and/or a highly defensive, economic build from your opponent. If things seem more aggressive, then a different build might be better. Your build has the charm of being quite neutral up to 22 food, allowing for a free switch if needed (and weakening scouting).
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Ive done a 1 base carrier build that involves 1 gate cyber stargate then 2nd gate. Its mostly zealots and sentry and stalkers with available gas. I forget numbers (havnt done the build in a week) but the second your stargate finishes you throw down a fleet beacon while constantly making units off the 2 gateways. Ideally save exactly 100 energy for when your carrier starts.
Right as your carrier pops out you have about 400 minerals so you can expand with your new firepower. This build has put me at even footing with 1 rax expands, and 10 marine 5 marauder stim pushes. It is like a voidray thats not bad vs unstimmed marines. Its expensive and slow but its more firepower and great at harassing.
+attack upgrades do scale very well on carriers, +1 is 20% more damage
I typically go storm and charge after setting up my expo because the best counter to this build is mass stimmed marines or a TON of vikings, so storm/blink is good against either of those situations. Get the occasional phoenix to scout the terran base. Be aware he may go banshee so get a robo as you expand even if its only for observers.
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1v1 this is very weak to clever cloak play as has been pointed out. On the other hand, I have enjoyed a carrier build in my 2v2 games, though with charge zelots instead of blink stalkers. Your ally can cover ranged units, ground-to-air, and detection.
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I like the build and I hope that it can become a viable option for protoss. One big issue I see is that you aren't getting any detection. How would this build fare against a cloaked banshee or dt rush? Can you see it coming fast enough with your phoenix to throw down a forge or robo? Against protoss you would definitely want to use another build if you scouted a possible 4 warpgate, but your probe scout should see that before you commit to anything.
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I think that this build has a few weaknesses. First, I think that a good bio drop will be good against this. Another thing is 4 turrets at a terrans mineral line pretty much negates your pheonix harassment. Finally, if they get an early expand you are economically behind.
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I think going carriers is most viable vs Terrans who turtle mech. This allows you to expand safely and you can use a phoenixes to scout and harass works well here. The only thing Terrans have that carriers aren't good against is battlecruisers.
Vs Zerg it's tricky as corruptors armor and hp is hard for carriers to eat through unless you can outpace his armor with your weapon upgrades. Carriers do surprisingly well vs hydras. Main thing here is if you can handle the zerg pressure while you're teching, which IMO isn't possible w/o teching colossi or HT vs hydras.
Vs Protoss is again the issue of pressure. Most PvP already end up having late expos due to highly aggressive 1-base plays not allowing expos, I can't see how you will be able to have the time and resources necessary. Though if you can get a sizable carrier fleet up it is very hard for protoss to stop due to their weak AA options.
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On August 22 2010 14:23 Chiburi wrote:
I like the build and I hope that it can become a viable option for protoss. One big issue I see is that you aren't getting any detection. How would this build fare against a cloaked banshee or dt rush? Can you see it coming fast enough with your phoenix to throw down a forge or robo? Against protoss you would definitely want to use another build if you scouted a possible 4 warpgate, but your probe scout should see that before you commit to anything.
Yea, early scouting is meant to scout the early aggression, while scouting with the first Phoenix will alert you if you need detection.
I've learned that lesson in my ladder sessions when I slacked on scouting and lost to both DT and cloaked Banshees.
The new goal is to be relatively flexible and safe early, as opposed to trying to rush Carriers. I was too hellbent on getting the Carriers out before and was dying too much. This is why I switched to two Gates before Stargate, where as before I was rushing Stargate.
As long as you scout actively, you should be able to prepare for just about anything.
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On August 22 2010 14:23 NiTrOuS wrote:
I think that this build has a few weaknesses. First, I think that a good bio drop will be good against this. Another thing is 4 turrets at a terrans mineral line pretty much negates your pheonix harassment. Finally, if they get an early expand you are economically behind.
Yea, drops could be problematic. But since I don't use my ground army for any aggression, but instead use it to defend my ramp, I may be able to react quick enough for the drop.
And 4 Turrets would be awesome, if I could get any damage done with them before that. 400 wasted minerals for them, slowing them down considerably and giving me a chance to expand. I can just pull my Phoenix back to support my ground army at that point, while occasionally poking back in with them to scout.
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750ish diamond protoss here, I've been working on my own phoenix -> carrier build myself, really surprised someone else is too (and posted it on TL)
I haven't tried this in PvP, because against a good player I just don't think you can live long enough to get a good number of carriers. PvT and PvZ however, I've given up on this build. It just isn't very safe or stable compared to a Robo opening. I still love to phoenix opening depending on map, but a carrier followup just isn't a very safe option. Major problems are
1 - Finding the safe transition point to carriers. I've been put up with so much pressure with such large bio armies, and Carriers don't handle them well, especially when you only have one or two ready. I've found that going HT before Carrier tech helps, but I haven't experimented much and I think the HT won the game more than the Carriers in those situations
2 - Although you can micro the carriers away from ground units, they will tear through interceptors (marines, hydras). This eats into your minerals and leaves your ground army with no effective tech to deal with the large ranged army (either high amounts of hydra or marines melt gateway units). Against terran specifically, good players move their starport too far into the mainland that I can't reach it. He then builds up a large number of vikings and they destroy the carriers faster than the counters can kill them (the range on vikings and slow speed of carriers just destroys carriers), then you're left with just gateway units. The sort of same problem comes with PvZ, but I've simply lost to mass hydra
As much as I want a Carrier build/transition to work, it just doesn't seem too viable. It isn't a safe transition because of the timing and lack of aoe damage - something almost necessary with the strength of bio-balls and roach/hydra against gateway units.
edit - I wish I had saved my replays, but I had given up on this build in such frustration that I didn't save them. Again, it just isn't a safe build, I would almost call it an all-in
Feel free to keep trying though, but just my input here. I've caught a few players off-guard with this transition, but good players were able to handle it. Once my carriers were down it wasn't even a close battle with no other tech to support my gateway units
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EPT
