EPTAgainst a pure bio-ball I've actually found muta baneling to be an amazing mix especially considering you can match the terran army's mobility and don't have to sacrifice much in terms of map control. Does anyone have any other good ways of dealing with the dreaded ball?
ZvT army composition
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deverlight
Korea (South)463 Posts
Against a pure bio-ball I've actually found muta baneling to be an amazing mix especially considering you can match the terran army's mobility and don't have to sacrifice much in terms of map control. Does anyone have any other good ways of dealing with the dreaded ball? | ||
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bostic
Australia41 Posts
After the game i realised infestors could have helped. But I think what i really should have done was out maneuvered him with drops and counter attacks, rather than trying to face him head on. Especially bad idea to go offensive with hydras since they are so slow  | ||
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Laggy
United States385 Posts
Overall Speedling Ultra work very well against mech armies, throw in some roaches if you'd like and with your 4-5 expansions should be at max larva at each and high counts of minerals and gas while you're waiting for him to move out, you can just reinforce so quick that there in lies the power of the swarm. However there are certain things that are close to impossible to win against such as tank on the high ground over the expansion on Lost Temple, denying any sort of expo. And if the player is good enough he can scout any hidden expansions.Overall This match up is a lot more difficult than it should be. but if your macro is up to par you can slowly out produce him. Watch Idra vs Drewbie, Idra plays very well on that game. | ||
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deverlight
Korea (South)463 Posts
It seems like the general consensus is that you have to out-produce/out-macro the terran but I've yet to have a game where I've been able to take that much of a supply lead without something out of the ordinary happening. It makes me feel that if I could find a decent army composition for fighting his, I'd be able to hold my ground and hold out until my superior economy and hive tech kick in. | ||
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Laggy
United States385 Posts
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AnodyneSea
Jamaica757 Posts
On August 09 2010 20:49 Laggy wrote: Ultralisks work well with the frenzy passive skill that makes them immune to slow. Dude they took out frenzy a long time ago..................... | ||
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Scruff
Singapore509 Posts
But i'll suggest to not ever get into that kind of situation since mech is ridiculously overpowered and very tough to beat. I normally just get muta to harrass the hell out of them so i don't have to deal with tanks and lolrauders on steriods. | ||
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Broodlings
United States157 Posts
On August 09 2010 21:15 AnodyneSea wrote: Dude they took out frenzy a long time ago..................... They never took out frenzied, they just moved the ability to the ultra as a passive ability. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Frenzied | ||
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Amber[LighT]
United States5078 Posts
On August 09 2010 20:49 Laggy wrote: Ultralisks work well with the frenzy passive skill that makes them immune to slow. But you should try and take map control expand to 4-5 bases send mutas to spread creep on the ones you are not using.You can have a few ultras to distract them and burrow a large number of them and bate the terran player into moving over them. You have to get really creative versus this army once it moves out, it is a very powerful army but not unbeatable. If you plan on playing out long macro games all you have to do is wait till they hit 200/200 unless you see a quirk in their defenses that you can exploit such as low air defence you can drop some banelings or lings even ultras but by then he'd have a few thors. Overall Speedling Ultra work very well against mech armies, throw in some roaches if you'd like and with your 4-5 expansions should be at max larva at each and high counts of minerals and gas while you're waiting for him to move out, you can just reinforce so quick that there in lies the power of the swarm. However there are certain things that are close to impossible to win against such as tank on the high ground over the expansion on Lost Temple, denying any sort of expo. And if the player is good enough he can scout any hidden expansions.Overall This match up is a lot more difficult than it should be. but if your macro is up to par you can slowly out produce him. Watch Idra vs Drewbie, Idra plays very well on that game. This would work well if every Zerg was able to stockpile 1200+ gas at the late game. Hive tech is so costly and getting even 3-4 ultralisks is a HUGE drain on both economy and supply. I had a terran suggest making ultralisks after we played like as though I'm using my farts to add bonus gas. It's ironic by the late game (hive transition) I always have about a 10:1 mineral:gas ratio that I can't even use properly. Not disagreeing on the Idra vs. Drewbie suggestion though  | ||
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Castaface
Finland34 Posts
It's also cool to start with BLs and transition to ultraling when the terran's committed a lot on vikings. Need a really good economy with 4+ bases for the gas of course. | ||
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deverlight
Korea (South)463 Posts
Discounting the usual speedling approach, do you guys think Roach/Ultra would be viable? Roaches are another unit, like lings, that don't really cut into your gas that heavily. I feel as though zerg would really benefit from having an army capable of soaking tons of damage. A lot of the times I'm using ultra/speedling I find that speedlings end up dying so quickly due to random splash damage and it quickly becomes 5 ultras against the entire terran army. I feel like the real limiting factor in roach/ultra wouldn't be in gas but in supply. I'm not sure how large of a roach/ultra army you could get without maxing out if you have enough drones to saturate 3-4 bases. | ||
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Denzz
United States9 Posts
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mathemagician1986
Germany549 Posts
start off with early speedlings (gas before pool) just in case a reaper harass or very early helions hit me. Then I tech to mutas while getting my natural up. Once I get my mutas out I start harassing and expand at least once again. I then have a short period of muta/ling/bling and sometimes a few roaches depending on what I see. It's important to start going hive very early though, so muta/ling/bling is just a short period before I can get ultras out. I've also started using burrowed blings to great effect. Even if it doesn't really kill that many of his units, it makes him waste scans and advance slower. I'm only a low diamond player, so this probably won't work at a high level, but I find that most terrans are actually really bad, and don't know any proper timing pushes. This way I just mass expand and hope my ultras get out in time to crush his mech army. It's amazing how +3 armour ultras can shrug off tank fire. When attacking you really need lots of space though, otherwise ultras just run around not able to get to the front line. | ||
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NonFactor
Sweden698 Posts
It's very easy to say ''lol just get broodlords or ultralisks!!'' The Tech time to get these is very long, and for a good reason too, otherwise we could get high amounts of high tech units really fast due to our larva system, so we need longer tech times for it to stay balanced, the problem here is that the push from Terran usually comes before you can get BLs / good amount of Ultralisks with upgrades. So in your arsenal you have: Roaches, Hydralisks, Mutalisks, Zerglings and Infestors. Against Mech builds Zerglings and Mutalisks are sadly useless. Terran can too easily defend against Mutalisks so ''harass'' to buy time like in BW isn't a possibility either. Infestors can buy you time, but heres the other problem: The rush distances in most maps are incredibly small, so yeah, you might slow them down a bit, but wont usually mean shit. The mech units can be handily be repaired too so if your thinking about sometype of kiting with FG then it's not gonna work. Zerglings are too hard-countered by tanks and hellions, so sadly they are more or less useless. They can be useful though against a very early push when there isn't a ball of units. So what your usually left with is Hydralisks and Roaches to be the bulk of your army, and the only thing to defend with. This mix is the best mix you got, but I don't personally think it's enough. Siege tanks own up Roaches and Hydras. The problem here I AGAIN think are the god-awful maps. Compare current maps to the maps used in BW. You will notice that the majority of the maps are a lot bigger and generally have more open space. While the blizzard map makers seem to get hard-ons by making tight space areas with random walls that seemed to have been specifically designed to help Siege tanks to be un-reachable. This combined with the no-overkill makes imo Siege tanks so incredibly strong against Zerg ground. Combine this with big ass Thors with SVCs repairing sitting at the front blocking the shit out of everything with some Hellions throwing extra DPS too. (Hellions sometimes aren't even used, but I've found it myself to be a good mineral sink.) Thors also pack a punch against Zerg units. 1 shotting Hydralisks, seriously? While also being the perfect counter towards Mutalisks. Then theres still people who mix some random Marines to the force mainly because they can, and they are also very cheap, making any Mutalisks even more useless, while Marines are still decent DPSers on ground and since Zerg doesen't have ANY AoE attack except for FG which is a spell at that point in the game, they usually stay alive and if wanted dead, they need to be killed by single targeting Roaches / Hydralisks which is good because their not killing the blocking Thors or the tanks. The way I see it is that the Terran usually does 2 pushes. 1 very early in the game, usually involving Hellions / Marauders / Marines, or Marines / Tanks, and usually Zerg defends this, but Terran can safely expand afterwards, this allows Zerg usually to expand aswell depending how much damage he took defending, but I don't think you will have enough time to get BLs / Ultralisks out before the next strong push comes. | ||
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Smackzilla
United States539 Posts
On August 09 2010 22:11 Castaface wrote: BLs work fine against that - especially on tighter maps where ultras have a hard time getting a good position (like blistering). Marauders and 250mm cannon can make short work of ultras. It's also cool to start with BLs and transition to ultraling when the terran's committed a lot on vikings. Need a really good economy with 4+ bases for the gas of course. Do you still feel 250mm is worth it now that ultras cant be stunned? | ||
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fdsdfg
United States1251 Posts
On August 10 2010 00:37 Smackzilla wrote: Do you still feel 250mm is worth it now that ultras cant be stunned? Considering it can kill an ultra before the ultra brings the thor to half health, I'd say yes. Thors already beat ultras if there's more than about 4 of each (or if position favors ranged), but cannon makes sure it beats ultra in all scenarios. | ||
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Castaface
Finland34 Posts
On August 09 2010 22:30 NonFactor wrote: Hive isn't really the answer imo. It's very easy to say ''lol just get broodlords or ultralisks!!'' The Tech time to get these is very long, and for a good reason too, otherwise we could get high amounts of high tech units really fast due to our larva system, so we need longer tech times for it to stay balanced, the problem here is that the push from Terran usually comes before you can get BLs / good amount of Ultralisks with upgrades. So in your arsenal you have: Roaches, Hydralisks, Mutalisks, Zerglings and Infestors. Against Mech builds Zerglings and Mutalisks are sadly useless. Terran can too easily defend against Mutalisks so ''harass'' to buy time like in BW isn't a possibility either. Infestors can buy you time, but heres the other problem: The rush distances in most maps are incredibly small, so yeah, you might slow them down a bit, but wont usually mean shit. The mech units can be handily be repaired too so if your thinking about sometype of kiting with FG then it's not gonna work. Zerglings are too hard-countered by tanks and hellions, so sadly they are more or less useless. They can be useful though against a very early push when there isn't a ball of units. So what your usually left with is Hydralisks and Roaches to be the bulk of your army, and the only thing to defend with. This mix is the best mix you got, but I don't personally think it's enough. Siege tanks own up Roaches and Hydras. The problem here I AGAIN think are the god-awful maps. Compare current maps to the maps used in BW. You will notice that the majority of the maps are a lot bigger and generally have more open space. While the blizzard map makers seem to get hard-ons by making tight space areas with random walls that seemed to have been specifically designed to help Siege tanks to be un-reachable. This combined with the no-overkill makes imo Siege tanks so incredibly strong against Zerg ground. Combine this with big ass Thors with SVCs repairing sitting at the front blocking the shit out of everything with some Hellions throwing extra DPS too. (Hellions sometimes aren't even used, but I've found it myself to be a good mineral sink.) Thors also pack a punch against Zerg units. 1 shotting Hydralisks, seriously? While also being the perfect counter towards Mutalisks. Then theres still people who mix some random Marines to the force mainly because they can, and they are also very cheap, making any Mutalisks even more useless, while Marines are still decent DPSers on ground and since Zerg doesen't have ANY AoE attack except for FG which is a spell at that point in the game, they usually stay alive and if wanted dead, they need to be killed by single targeting Roaches / Hydralisks which is good because their not killing the blocking Thors or the tanks. The way I see it is that the Terran usually does 2 pushes. 1 very early in the game, usually involving Hellions / Marauders / Marines, or Marines / Tanks, and usually Zerg defends this, but Terran can safely expand afterwards, this allows Zerg usually to expand aswell depending how much damage he took defending, but I don't think you will have enough time to get BLs / Ultralisks out before the next strong push comes. This post is really dead on. Hive IS the answer but getting there while maintaining enough bases to cover the gas cost of T3 tech is extremely difficult. Bio is counterable enough but mech with marauders is pretty damn hard to stop, especially if the T pulls scvs to repair thors. It's pretty much the point where you have 3 bases and terran moves out at around 100-150 supply I'm having difficulties with. It seems feasible on maps like LT where you can do multiple flanks and the distance between bases is hopefully big enough so you can try to catch the tanks unsieged. NP works relatively well if the army size isnt huge and you get a good position. I think the most success I've had is with burrowed roaches and infestors NP'ing the thors / tanks but not too many T's fall for it. Also like you mentioned, the smaller maps or close positions on some maps make it really difficult to engage in any decent position. | ||
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Castaface
Finland34 Posts
On August 10 2010 00:37 Smackzilla wrote: Do you still feel 250mm is worth it now that ultras cant be stunned? Yeah definately. The damage is enough to warrant it and it's a pretty cheap tech (150/150?). http://sc2.replayers.com/replays/view/1559 ^ Idra vs Drewbie on Kulas. Idra outexpands T and goes ultras. He only won the game after getting BLs (which he should've gotten earlier to be fair). It's not the best showcase of 250mm cannons but decent enough. | ||
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BlasiuS
United States2405 Posts
It's funny, since release I have seen very few high-level players use pure mech, I guess ling/ultra/infestor is too good against pure mech? As for a thor/tank/marauder mix, it depends on how many thor he has. If it's 1-3 thors, then pure muta will win easily. If it's 4+ thors, then broodlords are good, but you have to follow up with something else because you only have a small window to do damage before vikings come out which counter broodlords hard. If he doesn't have any medivacs, then muta/ling should beat this army fairly easily in the mid-game; just make sure to run in with your zerglings while his tanks are unsieged. I don't recommend ultras late-game, because marauders + thor can both counter ultras fairly well. | ||
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Kexx
Germany240 Posts
Broodlords are just useless against Terran if you builds vikings, so once you see vikings just don't bother wasting anymore money in Broodlords, chances are you trying to hard to counter the vikings with infestors and BLs and you lose. What some korean zergs do is to play mainly speedlings/banelinge/mutas against mech/bio army. It's really hard to pull of and I'd only recommend it on 4 player maps. Mutas are really not that bad against thors, you just have to spread them enough. check the replays from CheckPrime to know what I mean. | ||
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