|
On August 10 2010 04:53 archon256 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2010 04:39 fdsdfg wrote:
I would ocnsider a drop of a bunch of banelings+ultras+roaches right on top of the Terran mech army.. with enough thors and splash though, you could eat some losses, but OLs die really really slow to Thors so I think it'd be okay. This is my usual strategy to hold off mid-game pushes, but I once faced a player who had about 4-5 Vikings mixed in with his death ball, and those REALLY tear through your drop with their huge a-a range. Plus it's not like he wasted the money he put into making them, he was using Vikings to snipe my Overlords all game.
That's why I'd like to save it until lategame where it's not a big deal to send in 10 empty overlords in front. Also since ultralisks allow the overlord to empty immediately - instead of having to wait for each roach you get all your DPS working from the beginning instead of your roaches blowing up almost as fast as they unload. Banelings are great because they are guranteed to do their damage - plus the splash of a friendly tank shot.
|
I'd only like to address what I like to call the "Terran Campaign Argument." It comes in different flavors.
"There are so many Terrans out there because they're the race you learn in the campaign, not because they're easy but effective."
This doesn't make any sense to me. Let's just get a basic framework for an argument here. Let's say, for the sake of argument, that:
1. All races are balanced and equal.
2. Since #1 above is true, the only determinant for league placement is skill and skill alone.
3. Besides talent, RTS skill comes mainly from practice and experience (I'm sure nobody here will argue this!)
So, given those 3, one can draw the conclusion that Terrans should make up the majority of the lower leagues (new players flock to this race). One can also inference that the race distribution would become more balanced as you progressed up in leagues (the more experienced players from the beta and the more talented players would progress higher, but as RTS veterans, would not necessarily be playing the "newbie" race). However, Terran (and then Protoss to an extent) players outnumber Zerg players disproportionately in the top 1000 and diamond leagues overall.
Why is that? It has nothing to do with the Terran campaign. Perhaps Zerg is harder? Perhaps Zerg wasn't cool enough to capture most players' attention when they were picking a race? While we can't ever completely rule out single player influence on those decisions, I don't think it has anything to do with Terran being the "newbie" campaign race.
"The Terran macro is the easiest because it's the race in the campaign -- it's designed to be more straightforward for newer players."
Besides the inherent admission of imbalance here, I find this reasoning to make no sense. Why would Blizzard intentionally make one race "easier" to play with all their investment on eSports, which hinges on balance between all three races?
This argument gains merit when you look at old censuses from the beta where Zerg would be less than expected -- around 20% -- because their macro was probably too confusing for newer players. But if Terran macro was so easy and designed for newer players, then why are there so many Protoss players? Even back in the beta, Protoss outnumbered Zerg and Terran. Why would Blizzard make Protoss so straightforward and easy for new players (back in the beta, when the game was completely new) when their intention was for Terran to fill this niche?
BOTTOM LINE: The race featured in the campaign has NOTHING to do with multiplayer balance / imbalance. Please stop bringing it to these discussions.
|
Actually, I think campaign and lore have a significant bit to do with Zerg not having enough cool stuff. The folks at Blizzard just had so much fun coming up with stuff to obliterate the evil zerg swarms that they forgot to let zerg have a chance to be awesome. I think that for this reason, Blizzard will come to its senses in developing Heart of the Swarm when they realize playing Z isn't as fun as it should be. But we shouldn't have to wait that long.
|
On August 10 2010 06:06 AdonaiMSRT wrote:
Actually, I think campaign and lore have a significant bit to do with Zerg not having enough cool stuff. The folks at Blizzard just had so much fun coming up with stuff to obliterate the evil zerg swarms that they forgot to let zerg have a chance to be awesome. I think that for this reason, Blizzard will come to its senses in developing Heart of the Swarm when they realize playing Z isn't as fun as it should be. But we shouldn't have to wait that long.
I also think T is most polished cause of it being their campaign.
I hope when heart of the swarm arrives that they will polish up Z a great bit.
But keep in mind that there has been lurkers at one point in the game along with other units. They just couldnt balance them in MP or they didnt fit in.
I also hope that when heart of the swarm arrives that T gets something like maroach that is kinda like the marine and marauder, But it has range 3, cant shoot up and is cheaper then marauder but more expensive then a marine. smth like 75min 25gas myb?
|
On August 10 2010 06:15 Izzachar wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2010 06:06 AdonaiMSRT wrote:
Actually, I think campaign and lore have a significant bit to do with Zerg not having enough cool stuff. The folks at Blizzard just had so much fun coming up with stuff to obliterate the evil zerg swarms that they forgot to let zerg have a chance to be awesome. I think that for this reason, Blizzard will come to its senses in developing Heart of the Swarm when they realize playing Z isn't as fun as it should be. But we shouldn't have to wait that long. I also think T is most polished cause of it being their campaign. I hope when heart of the swarm arrives that they will polish up Z a great bit. But keep in mind that there has been lurkers at one point in the game along with other units. They just couldnt balance them in MP or they didnt fit in. I also hope that when heart of the swarm arrives that T gets something like maroach that is kinda like the marine and marauder, But it has range 3, cant shoot up and is cheaper then marauder but more expensive then a marine. smth like 75min 25gas myb?
You want T to get a roach clone? ...why? Why would anyone build it over a Marauder? 25 more minerals for range 6, more dps, double damage vs armor, conc shells and stim - unless you want it to burrow and regen and stuff, in which case you're crazy
|
A side rant from me, not related to the current discussion (but was mentioned earlier), but why does everyone suggest that you should mass expand against a turtling Terran? It only takes a few takes for a Terran to turtle. Short of that, the Terran have the most mobile army of any race thanks to medivacs and vikings. Zerg must have creep to get from one area to another in any reasonable time, and the nydus worm makes a big RAAAWWRRRR letting everyone in the world know it's coming. On most maps, mass expanding simply isn't an option. I'm a Protoss player, but I feel for my Zerg brethren.
|
The Zerg have a different play style than toss and terran. You HAVE to mass units to win, it's expected. But to play it to its best you dont mass those units in your opponents front door. A good zerg player needs great micro. Splitting your attack, massing from all angles, freaking your opponent out, that's the way to win. Yes Terran can hard coutner all your units, but he can't react fast enough if you hit him in 3 or 4 different areas at once, which is the advantage of your mass units.
|
I want to add one thing, that haven't been mentioned so far as I recall. Zerg also has no other mineral dumper then Zerglings. The problem with Zerglings is not just the tremendous hunger for larva, which you can't afford on a low base count. Furthermore they are damn fragile if the game progresses into late game. Although Zerglings are great to harass minerals lines all game long. On the contrary you got Marines and Zealots, which are still very useful in 200/200 clashes.
Roaches pre two supply patch filled that niche half-way with costs of just 25 gas. But now the two supply really hurts on 200vs200 battles where you also need tones of drones to keep up in harvesting to replenish your army.
For the moment that is how Zerg wins versus Terran: just throw supply on them and hope they can't replenish their army as fast as Zerg can do.
|
On August 10 2010 06:46 fdsdfg wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2010 06:15 Izzachar wrote:On August 10 2010 06:06 AdonaiMSRT wrote:
Actually, I think campaign and lore have a significant bit to do with Zerg not having enough cool stuff. The folks at Blizzard just had so much fun coming up with stuff to obliterate the evil zerg swarms that they forgot to let zerg have a chance to be awesome. I think that for this reason, Blizzard will come to its senses in developing Heart of the Swarm when they realize playing Z isn't as fun as it should be. But we shouldn't have to wait that long. I also think T is most polished cause of it being their campaign. I hope when heart of the swarm arrives that they will polish up Z a great bit. But keep in mind that there has been lurkers at one point in the game along with other units. They just couldnt balance them in MP or they didnt fit in. I also hope that when heart of the swarm arrives that T gets something like maroach that is kinda like the marine and marauder, But it has range 3, cant shoot up and is cheaper then marauder but more expensive then a marine. smth like 75min 25gas myb? You want T to get a roach clone? ...why? Why would anyone build it over a Marauder? 25 more minerals for range 6, more dps, double damage vs armor, conc shells and stim - unless you want it to burrow and regen and stuff, in which case you're crazy
lol. Cause I wanted to emphasize how bland Zs units are. I wasn't serious.
|
It would be absolutely effing ridiculous to wait until next expansion (2-3 years?) before getting this crap fixed.
By far the most annoying thing about Zerg is so very few choices. Let's do it together. Count up all Terran units, their damage bonuses, and abilities: stim, snipe, emp, viking transformation, cloaking, etc, etc. It is literally more than double of Zerg stuff. Yeah, great choices.
And don't even make me laugh at suggesting borrow, the most pathetic ability given how easy it is to counter that for any brain-dead Terran (TLO fell for it versus Madfrog, though, oh well  ). Yeah, you can kill noobs with that but once you get into Platinum/Diamond, that will never happen.
So, yep, you sit there as Zerg, macro like crazy, and then pick from 3/4 choices, and hope to god that your opponent is a noob who will let you get t3. Any decent Terran player will stomp you to death at 100-130is food, leaving you staring at that cute t3 tech that never had a chance.
To be honest, I have no idea what the hell Blizzard can do to fix this crap, because it is so utterly broken. Zerg would need a ton of new abilities to fix it up. Just adding one or two overpowered spells/units, will just imba Zerg instead.
And let's be honest, Blizzard would never nerf Terran given their past "balancing" choices. The best that we can hope for is maybe getting Roach at 1 supply but then ZvZ is screwy again. Sigh . . .
Damn it, I wish I didn't love Zerg so much, so that I could switch and play another race. Oh, well.
|
tbh, I do believe that keeping up with the whining is the best solution to get something changed. Add to that some pro players race switching from zerg and maybe Blizzard will deal with this stuff.
Sadly, in the meantime, as Zergs have about 50% win rate and reprezentation, I doubt stuff will be changed because hard facts like statistics weigh more than the opinions of some overzealous forumers.
|
On August 10 2010 19:43 Oleksandr wrote:
So, yep, you sit there as Zerg, macro like crazy, and then pick from 3/4 choices, and hope to god that your opponent is a noob who will let you get t3.
So I'm not the only one using this "strategy" I thought it was just because I wasn't playing very well.
The game that's recently become popular between IdrA and Drewbie kinda summed up how frustrating a turtling terran is for Zerg. I mean, I know people dislike BM and all, but while watching that replay I really couldn't blame Idra for being frustrated. The sheer amount of things a Terran can throw at you, while still falling back to their choke points is really rage inducing, and stuff like planetary fortresses just add insult to injury.
|
The real question is who has faith in blizzard to change things?
I mean really, there really are a good deal of unused mechanics with zerg. Many of them are unused because there is not much use in them (burrow), but others (nydus worm) have not seen much play due to both small maps and high cost when compared with alternatives (overlord drop).
I really wish there was some sign things were getting better, though the ultralisk changes were a good indicator. Well... the last of the changes at least. Frenzy should have never happened.
|
On August 10 2010 21:53 Bair wrote:
The real question is who has faith in blizzard to change things?
I mean really, there really are a good deal of unused mechanics with zerg. Many of them are unused because there is not much use in them (burrow), but others (nydus worm) have not seen much play due to both small maps and high cost when compared with alternatives (overlord drop).
I really wish there was some sign things were getting better, though the ultralisk changes were a good indicator. Well... the last of the changes at least. Frenzy should have never happened.
I think Blizzard will do it, they are just very wary (and rightly so) of changing things fast in a released game. Unfortunately the last changes in beta were mostly in the same direction (roach nerf thor buff and NP timer) which was not tested enough and messed things up.
The last day9daily was interesting ... I had not yet seen that TLO game and I need to try out the infestor first idea.
|
Its all about the chokes, in my opinion. Zergs cant get past the chokes of a terran, and to a lesser degree protoss, until T3.Versus a terran you can use broodlords in t3 to attack anywhere(ingoring the chokes) and vs protoss you can use ultras(that can deal with the forcefields).
A zerg cant be agressive at the chokepoints, so all fights have to take place once the opponent moves out of their base. That places the initiative in their hands, thus making zerg feel defensive, unforgiving and a bit boring.
Solution? Change the maps or bring back some kind of darkswarm/sight obscure spell.
|
On August 10 2010 22:08 Sixes wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2010 21:53 Bair wrote:
The real question is who has faith in blizzard to change things?
I mean really, there really are a good deal of unused mechanics with zerg. Many of them are unused because there is not much use in them (burrow), but others (nydus worm) have not seen much play due to both small maps and high cost when compared with alternatives (overlord drop).
I really wish there was some sign things were getting better, though the ultralisk changes were a good indicator. Well... the last of the changes at least. Frenzy should have never happened. I think Blizzard will do it, they are just very wary (and rightly so) of changing things fast in a released game. Unfortunately the last changes in beta were mostly in the same direction (roach nerf thor buff and NP timer) which was not tested enough and messed things up. The last day9daily was interesting ... I had not yet seen that TLO game and I need to try out the infestor first idea.
The roach nerf was still in phase 1 though. I think that was terrible. Imo give them their armor back. And make burrow T1. And their regen. Leave em 2 supply and slap on another 25 minerals. Make them scary again instead of a minor obstacle.
And the NP change was equally stupid. I find it amusing that blizzard actually reverted this change in one of its challenge maps and made it infinite again because the challenge is impossible with a 12 NP.
But I digress. Is this Day[9]tv up on youtube yet? I am not entirely sure which you mean. It sounds pretty interesting since infestors are pretty underutilized across the board. Hell, with good micro it seems like hydra/infestor would stomp all protoss. Colossi and HTs even.
|
On August 10 2010 22:51 Bair wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2010 22:08 Sixes wrote:On August 10 2010 21:53 Bair wrote:
The real question is who has faith in blizzard to change things?
I mean really, there really are a good deal of unused mechanics with zerg. Many of them are unused because there is not much use in them (burrow), but others (nydus worm) have not seen much play due to both small maps and high cost when compared with alternatives (overlord drop).
I really wish there was some sign things were getting better, though the ultralisk changes were a good indicator. Well... the last of the changes at least. Frenzy should have never happened. I think Blizzard will do it, they are just very wary (and rightly so) of changing things fast in a released game. Unfortunately the last changes in beta were mostly in the same direction (roach nerf thor buff and NP timer) which was not tested enough and messed things up. The last day9daily was interesting ... I had not yet seen that TLO game and I need to try out the infestor first idea. And the NP change was equally stupid. I find it amusing that blizzard actually reverted this change in one of its challenge maps and made it infinite again because the challenge is impossible with a 12 NP.
It feels like the entire race was designed around their role in the campaign so people playing single player can just throw siege tanks in a choke and happily watch zerg forces evaporate. Now in multiplayer we have to play with mechanics that were designed to lose to terran.
Really Terran has an answer to everything Zerg could possibly do and they don't have to divert their tech path to get that answer, while Zerg is just given a whole bunch of square pegs and round holes.
|
On August 03 2010 10:47 zomgtossrush wrote:Me and my friend were talking about this issue just last week. Since Terrans have BC's which are the late game "omgrapetastic" option. In which you can make a few of.. Toss has a solo mothership with super "tech" advantages... What does zerg have? you could argue broodlords or ultras, but they dont have that "unique" characteristic that seperates them from the other 2 races. What if the zerg has something to expand their supply? Of course we could debate forever by how much, but lets just say...35? It feels very swarm like. It would solve alot of issues players have with the roach supply count and such. The only problem would be to figure out what that something would be. Something air? something unit? some building, like post-hive? Of course we didn't put TOO much thought into this, but thats what the forums(and you guys) can do for us
I was thinking of this last night as well... If having lair tech boosts max supply by 25, and hive another 25, zerg could potentially stand up to late game pressure. It still doesn't really solve the defensive style of play that zerg is FORCED into, but it does relieve some pressure on the late game such that Terran (and protoss to some extent) can't sit in their base until they're maxed out.
It also helps mitigate the fact that zerg usually needs +1 expansion to stay on par with protoss & terran. Let me re-phrase that: one saturated expansion. Which means about 30 drones that are not combat units. An additional 50 supply (the actual number isn't the point of the discussion, just the mechanic) for Hive tech would help curb the excessive drone count for Zerg players.
I think the biggest problem about ZvT/P is the creep mechanic, to be honest. While it might seem amazing for Zerg players, it really just hinders them and forces them to play passively. Hydralisks and roaches (to some extent) are slow as sin off creep. This discourages aggressive styles of play against other races. It also discourages the opponent to attack the Zerg who is actively spreading creep because hydralisks and roaches are out of control on the creep. This type of stale-mate position is innately built into the ZvP matchups. The zerg merrily sits on their creep, massing hydras and roaches, and waits for the Protoss to attack. If the zerg moves off the creep in an attempt to make a move against Protoss, colossus or high templar murder hydralisks, not to mention sentry FF's.
|
Quote:
It feels like the entire race was designed around their role in the campaign so people playing single player can just throw siege tanks in a choke and happily watch zerg forces evaporate. Now in multiplayer we have to play with mechanics that were designed to lose to terran.
Really Terran has an answer to everything Zerg could possibly do and they don't have to divert their tech path to get that answer, while Zerg is just given a whole bunch of square pegs and round holes.
Endquote (I didn't want the nesting)
I totally agree. It's just like I said above, Blizz was so happy about destroying the evil Zerg, and now we have to pay for it in multiplayer.
|
On August 11 2010 00:01 junemermaid wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2010 10:47 zomgtossrush wrote:Me and my friend were talking about this issue just last week. Since Terrans have BC's which are the late game "omgrapetastic" option. In which you can make a few of.. Toss has a solo mothership with super "tech" advantages... What does zerg have? you could argue broodlords or ultras, but they dont have that "unique" characteristic that seperates them from the other 2 races. What if the zerg has something to expand their supply? Of course we could debate forever by how much, but lets just say...35? It feels very swarm like. It would solve alot of issues players have with the roach supply count and such. The only problem would be to figure out what that something would be. Something air? something unit? some building, like post-hive? Of course we didn't put TOO much thought into this, but thats what the forums(and you guys) can do for us I was thinking of this last night as well... If having lair tech boosts max supply by 25, and hive another 25, zerg could potentially stand up to late game pressure. It still doesn't really solve the defensive style of play that zerg is FORCED into, but it does relieve some pressure on the late game such that Terran (and protoss to some extent) can't sit in their base until they're maxed out. It also helps mitigate the fact that zerg usually needs +1 expansion to stay on par with protoss & terran. Let me re-phrase that: one saturated expansion. Which means about 30 drones that are not combat units. An additional 50 supply (the actual number isn't the point of the discussion, just the mechanic) for Hive tech would help curb the excessive drone count for Zerg players. I think the biggest problem about ZvT/P is the creep mechanic, to be honest. While it might seem amazing for Zerg players, it really just hinders them and forces them to play passively. Hydralisks and roaches (to some extent) are slow as sin off creep. This discourages aggressive styles of play against other races. It also discourages the opponent to attack the Zerg who is actively spreading creep because hydralisks and roaches are out of control on the creep. This type of stale-mate position is innately built into the ZvP matchups. The zerg merrily sits on their creep, massing hydras and roaches, and waits for the Protoss to attack. If the zerg moves off the creep in an attempt to make a move against Protoss, colossus or high templar murder hydralisks, not to mention sentry FF's.
I think the creep mechanic works well, especially lore-wise. The slowly advancing unstoppable zerg. Of course slowly advancing unstoppable force sounds like siege tanks, but still, you get the idea. Zerg is not as bad off as people think. It is hard for them to get to tier 3, but then the get the best unit in the game:
The ultralisk.
Honestly, a fully upgraded ultraling force is nigh unstoppable by toss and terran. Terran straight up has no answer except banshees, which get murdered by a muta or 3, and the only decent unit toss has is the archon, which is even *more* expensive than an ultralisk. Factor in that you should be outmacroing them as zerg and GG.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
