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I don't see why ppl say zerg can train units fast. We can train a lot at the same time, but the actual unit times are nothing to be proud of.
<30s: T(3), Z(2), P(0)
31-45s: 5 all races
46-60s: T(3), Z(2), P(5)
61+: T(1), Z(2), P(4)
Banelings pop fast, but you have to include the cost of the zergling as well.
I don't mind the spawning pool time. That's where it needs to be to account for ling rush. But the rest of Zerg tech takes way too long and is way too inflexible. Adaptability goes a long way in a game, and as for lore, the Zerg are the epitome of adaptation. As it stands, the Terrans have the adaptability advantage.
And Terrans are hardly immobile. They can move their whole base if they so choose.
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I think an important change that needs to be made is "Mules need to cost Money + Energy"
I had a ZvT on Metalopolis the other day. He went mass marines I went ling bling
We attacked out bases more or less at the same time I baneling busted him and took out all of his defensive marines, scvs and supply depots. He lifted off his rax and CC.
At my base I lost my natural and almost all my drones (I think 3 survived). But I kept most of my main.
I sent the remainder of my lings round to where he landed his rax and attacked them, whilst killing off Marines as they popped. I realised I was not going to be able to keep this up for long as every marine pumped was killing off a ling or 2 and he had 4-5 rax. I didn't know how much money he had left so I pulled back and focused on Macro for a bit (It turned out he had 44 minerals when I pulled back)
What he did next was land his CC at the Gold and threw out about 5 Mules. Built a SCV and started building supply depots.
He managed to build up a marine force and put pressure on me again.
Eventually I won the game... But I feel the game went on way longer than it should have due to the fact he was able to call down Mules when he had no income. If Protoss or Zerg lost all of their workers and had no money its GG.
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I just read this thread thrue and i can't understand why so many of you keep on whining so much on about how broken the TvZ is.
I am a mediocre platinum player and yes i play Terran.
The way i see my games vs zerg opponents is:
Most of them are unwilling to change their strategy and either try to win the game with a cheese or and all in lategame attack of 200 vs 200 armies like many of you have also stated here in this topic. Question is why?
Lots of topics like this have been made by now and in each of them i see same problems with eventually same answers. Where is usse of Nydaus network? Where are the Doom Droops? Where is creep all over the map? The answer is, there is none or very litle percentage. Like only about 5% of zergs i played against by now that were spread thrue from like silver to low diamond league have made a usse of any of the written mechanics and mostly beat me.
Then there are tech switches that you can abuse so much more easily that any terran or toss.
I know someone wrote tech need long time to finish, units make long time to build but you can make lots of them at same time. Well the last thing is the thing that counts.
If you build only one tech that isn't scouted at the appropriate timing it can be gg very soon for your opponent. Terrans can make a building faster yea, but what about units?
You switch a tech lab on starport and suddenly you make a raven or a banshee, and if you have 2 starports then you can make 2 banshees at same time.
What about you Zerg fellas? Have anyone ever thought the pover of sudden tech switch when suddenly you have 10 mutas on the map? I know most of time you will be scouted but even then the sheer production capabilities of your larva is just amazing, abuse it more.
This is beggining to become a wall of text which really wasn't my intention in the first place, but for the end, take a look at this high level game from Korean server between Skidayo and PainKiller.
http://www.replayladder.com/site/replay/319
Take a look and maybe you will get few ideas on how to beat good Terran opponents.
good day, svizcy
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On August 10 2010 00:44 Kronologic wrote:
I think an important change that needs to be made is "Mules need to cost Money + Energy"
I had a ZvT on Metalopolis the other day. He went mass marines I went ling bling
We attacked out bases more or less at the same time I baneling busted him and took out all of his defensive marines, scvs and supply depots. He lifted off his rax and CC.
At my base I lost my natural and almost all my drones (I think 3 survived). But I kept most of my main.
I sent the remainder of my lings round to where he landed his rax and attacked them, whilst killing off Marines as they popped. I realised I was not going to be able to keep this up for long as every marine pumped was killing off a ling or 2 and he had 4-5 rax. I didn't know how much money he had left so I pulled back and focused on Macro for a bit (It turned out he had 44 minerals when I pulled back)
What he did next was land his CC at the Gold and threw out about 5 Mules. Built a SCV and started building supply depots.
He managed to build up a marine force and put pressure on me again.
Eventually I won the game... But I feel the game went on way longer than it should have due to the fact he was able to call down Mules when he had no income. If Protoss or Zerg lost all of their workers and had no money its GG.
This is just a symptom of the race though.
It's no secret that people will play the campaign and immediately go to play Terran - so their race is by far the most forgiving.
Forget about your macro mechanic for a few minutes? No problem.
In a base-race? Lift-off and you win
Supply blocked at a crucial point? OC for instant supply
Didn't build detectors and now there's DTs in the base? Never sent a scout? Built bunkers you don't need? Don't feel like breaking down rocks?
Terran is the only one that has an answer for any of these, and it has a near-zero cost for all of them - it's just a matter of making the race easy to play. It doesn't give too much advantage in competitive SC because it is smarter to build a missile turret than rely on scan, and smarter to mule when you have the energy rather than wait - it's just something the beginner doesn't need to worry about.
On August 10 2010 01:14 Svizcy wrote:I just read this thread thrue and i can't understand why so many of you keep on whining so much on about how broken the TvZ is. I am a mediocre platinum player and yes i play Terran. The way i see my games vs zerg opponents is: Most of them are unwilling to change their strategy and either try to win the game with a cheese or and all in lategame attack of 200 vs 200 armies like many of you have also stated here in this topic. Question is why? Lots of topics like this have been made by now and in each of them i see same problems with eventually same answers. Where is usse of Nydaus network? Where are the Doom Droops? Where is creep all over the map? The answer is, there is none or very litle percentage. Like only about 5% of zergs i played against by now that were spread thrue from like silver to low diamond league have made a usse of any of the written mechanics and mostly beat me. Then there are tech switches that you can abuse so much more easily that any terran or toss. I know someone wrote tech need long time to finish, units make long time to build but you can make lots of them at same time. Well the last thing is the thing that counts. If you build only one tech that isn't scouted at the appropriate timing it can be gg very soon for your opponent. Terrans can make a building faster yea, but what about units? You switch a tech lab on starport and suddenly you make a raven or a banshee, and if you have 2 starports then you can make 2 banshees at same time. What about you Zerg fellas? Have anyone ever thought the pover of sudden tech switch when suddenly you have 10 mutas on the map? I know most of time you will be scouted but even then the sheer production capabilities of your larva is just amazing, abuse it more. This is beggining to become a wall of text which really wasn't my intention in the first place, but for the end, take a look at this high level game from Korean server between Skidayo and PainKiller. http://www.replayladder.com/site/replay/319Take a look and maybe you will get few ideas on how to beat good Terran opponents. good day, svizcy
Look, there are a LOT of posts of "it's not the race's fault, it's just that all pro zerg players have no idea how to play starcraft. I never tried zerg but here's how you do it....."
If you can't see the absurdity in that, then just take these few points:
-Nydus and Doom drops are very easily countered at much less investment than the tactic itself.
-Tech switches aren't very useful when you have a total of four useful army units to build in the midgame (roaches, mutas, zerglings, hydras), and three of those will die to less than 1/4 their cost in the proper unit (muta/thor, zergling/hellion, hydra/tank).
-If the terran player is competent enough to prevent nydus and drops, then you have three avenues for aggression:
1) baneling bust before siege tanks are down
2) muta harass
3) throw crap at the choke
Since siege tanks comes out pretty quickly and muta harass is pretty easily repelled for only minerals, that just leaves #3.
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just bring back a swarm like spell researched via quick hive
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On August 04 2010 05:24 Shiladie wrote:
I am also getting very annoyed at the state of zerg. We spelled out the problems when we were in beta, but all they saw was the win/loss records apparently, and figured everything was fine and dandy.
When playing zerg right now, unless you baneling bust, everything feels like a delaying action/gamble. The entire game you get the least defence possible while macroing as hardcore as you can. The reason for this is that you are pretty much gauranteed to never be able to damage a good P or T going a standard build until very late game. Until you reach that 200/200 with 3-5k resources and 40+ larva sitting in wait, you don't want to engage, because you'll just lose. The other races though, have all sorts of timing windows, where they can power units and bust an unsuspecting zerg's defences. If the zerg player sees the timing push, he can get together the troops and has a 'decent' chance of fighting it off at an advantage. But if the zerg doesn't scout it he loses. If the zerg preps for a timing push that the other player isn't doing, then he is far behind where he needs to be in macro, and loses to the push that comes a bit later.
As the game gets more and more figured out I predict zerg win rates will decline more and more. P and T will find all of the different timing windows and ways they can punish zergs, that playing zerg will be a crapshoot where you need to make 5+ 50-50 choices correctly in a row or you lose.
The removal of lurkers + darkswarm + plague have caused zerg's defencive ability to be next to 0, which as stated extensively in the first page of this post, means zerg cannot be aggressive with their harass units, instead needing to mass up enough units to just survive.
Haha, this right here man. I bolded it cuz that's how I feel I play right now. Even though I suicide an overlord or two at different times, it matters little. All I'm gona see is the typical 1/1/1 if I'm even lucky enough to see anything which he can go wherever with anyway. In the end, I have little idea of what units are going to come barrelling out of that choke point. And once I see it coming, if I need spines to help, they'll never be done in time.
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On August 10 2010 01:14 fdsdfg wrote:
Look, there are a LOT of posts of "it's not the race's fault, it's just that all pro zerg players have no idea how to play starcraft. I never tried zerg but here's how you do it....."
If you can't see the absurdity in that, then just take these few points:
-Nydus and Doom drops are very easily countered at much less investment than the tactic itself.
-Tech switches aren't very useful when you have a total of four useful army units to build in the midgame (roaches, mutas, zerglings, hydras), and three of those will die to less than 1/4 their cost in the proper unit (muta/thor, zergling/hellion, hydra/tank).
-If the terran player is competent enough to prevent nydus and drops, then you have three avenues for aggression:
1) baneling bust before siege tanks are down
2) muta harass
3) throw crap at the choke
Since siege tanks comes out pretty quickly and muta harass is pretty easily repelled for only minerals, that just leaves #3.
I havent said that Pro players dont know how to use Zerg. If you see such statement in my post plese show it to me casue i cant see it.
Also, what do you want to point out here by saying that Nydaus is to expensive to use? It is a tunel that gives you acces to terrans or any other base and you can dodge the chocke where the most army of opponent is. Ofc if i see it i will kill it, but if i dont see it then it's gg most of the time. I think it is a risk you should be willing to take.
Bassicly what your saying about Nydaus and Doom Drops is same as i would say "Medivacs are bad becasue opponent shoots them down if he see them" i mean, really?!!
good day, svizcy
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On August 10 2010 03:13 Svizcy wrote:
Ofc if i see it i will kill it, but if i dont see it then it's gg most of the time. I think it is a risk you should be willing to take.
If the player is good, then he will see it and he will kill it.
The risk you are talking about is "I'm going to spend 300/300... if my opponent is bad, then I'll win right now!' That's not a good deal in high-level play because if your opponent is bad, then you will win anyway.
Don't put words in my mouth, your analogy makes no sense. A better one would be saying that nydus is analagous to nuking the enemy's army as it idles. Sure, if they make a huge mistake or aren't paying attention then you might get away with killing them for an easy win. But if they're paying any sort of attention, then it's a waste of resources. Also keep in mind that ghost academy + ghost + nuke is the same cost as nydus + worm. Why not make the same expectation of Terran to 'just nuke the enemy's army'?
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On August 10 2010 03:13 Svizcy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2010 01:14 fdsdfg wrote:
Look, there are a LOT of posts of "it's not the race's fault, it's just that all pro zerg players have no idea how to play starcraft. I never tried zerg but here's how you do it....."
If you can't see the absurdity in that, then just take these few points:
-Nydus and Doom drops are very easily countered at much less investment than the tactic itself.
-Tech switches aren't very useful when you have a total of four useful army units to build in the midgame (roaches, mutas, zerglings, hydras), and three of those will die to less than 1/4 their cost in the proper unit (muta/thor, zergling/hellion, hydra/tank).
-If the terran player is competent enough to prevent nydus and drops, then you have three avenues for aggression:
1) baneling bust before siege tanks are down
2) muta harass
3) throw crap at the choke
Since siege tanks comes out pretty quickly and muta harass is pretty easily repelled for only minerals, that just leaves #3. I havent said that Pro players dont know how to use Zerg. If you see such statement in my post plese show it to me casue i cant see it. Also, what do you want to point out here by saying that Nydaus is to expensive to use? It is a tunel that gives you acces to terrans or any other base and you can dodge the chocke where the most army of opponent is. Ofc if i see it i will kill it, but if i dont see it then it's gg most of the time. I think it is a risk you should be willing to take. Bassicly what your saying about Nydaus and Doom Drops is same as i would say "Medivacs are bad becasue opponent shoots them down if he see them" i mean, really?!! good day, svizcy
just go play terran and quit trying to 'help' because you're really not. youre spelling is terrible too, if english isnt your first language then fine, if it is then christ our schools fail.
how conceited do you have to be to tell a group of zerg players to doom drop or nydus? do you think we are all retarded? you obviously didnt take the time to read this thread, you were like hey a bunch of qq zerg. let me tell them what they are doing wrong.
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Becasue 1 nuke doesnt teleport all your army over the whole map behind the back of the opponent.
Opponents dont need to be bad so you can use Nydaus or Doom drops vs them.
I seen SEN do it, i seen Dimaga do it.
In replay i provided you can also see how to deal with Thors with muta herras and win like that.
I'm traying to say you have viable options, that you just aren't ready to use the way your talking or at least that is what i understand from your post.
So the conclusion would be that there is nothing wrong except the fact that you and many others are just unwilling to adapt.
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On August 10 2010 03:37 Svizcy wrote:
Becasue 1 nuke doesnt teleport all your army over the whole map behind the back of the opponent.
That's not my point, my point is that it wins the game instantly if the opponent is an idiot.
Opponents dont need to be bad so you can use Nydaus or Doom drops vs them.
I seen SEN do it, i seen Dimaga do it.
In replay i provided you can also see how to deal with Thors with muta herras and win like that.
Drops, yes, but only useful when you have already destroyed the opponent's army - otherwise the opponent can attack and force you to go back to your main to defend or else lose the base race.
I never said anything about Thors in muta harass.
I'm traying to say you have viable options, that you just aren't ready to use the way your talking or at least that is what i understand from your post.
So the conclusion would be that there is nothing wrong except the fact that you and many others are just unwilling to adapt.
Yeah I know what you're trying to say - you're still wrong. Just because someone thinks you're wrong doesn't mean they don't understand what you're trying to say.
How many SC2 matches have you played as Zerg? I'm sure mine is over 500, and I've explored many many avenues of creative attacks. In fact, I summarized them on a post in page 9. All that's left is:
-burrow move (beaten by spending 100m at a choke)
-nydus (beaten by spreading out supply depots for vision
-drops (see above)
-baneling bust (beaten by thick wall, or a couple siege tanks at the choke)
-mutas (marines, missile turrets, thors if needed)
-throw crap at the choke
Nydus and mid-game baneling busts are out, drops have the failure I stated above, and burrow move is a huge gamble on the opponent making a huge mistake.
So we have mutas and throwing crap at the choke. It's not surprising why Zerg players don't get creative.
Also, work on your spelling - even if English isn't your first language it's not hard to avoid sounding like a retard.
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On August 10 2010 03:44 fdsdfg wrote:
Drops, yes, but only useful when you have already destroyed the opponent's army - otherwise the opponent can attack and force you to go back to your main to defend or else lose the base race.
what about using doom drops in order to make opponent's nat or 3rd base empty and go destroy it with your HALF splitted army?
If you do well, you kill main nexus + some probes + nat/3rd base
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I think Drops are something that every Zerg player should come to use more and more now, actually. Baneling Drops + Roach unburrow is one of the few ways Zerg has to deal with an entrenched Terran army. And drops in the main can be used to force the Terran back to his base, after which you can just load up all your troops and pull back. There are several problems with this, though. Drop harassment is shut down by proper use of Sensor Towers (something which a lot of T pros don't seem to be using), and by a few Vikings. Still, it's the best we've got.
Nydus Worms, however, are really really bad. Especially when used for offense. Unlike Drop tech, you need to pay in gas every time you create a worm. Plus the cost of the Nydus Network itself. All that would be fine if the Worm would be created sooner and if units would exit it faster. As it is, it takes 20 seconds to build, and only 2 units can exit it per second. Considering how little damage it takes to kill it, and how many units Zerg usually has, you really shouldn't be surprised how few Zerg use it.
That's not to say they have no uses. I use them often to expand to island locations (and provide an exit route for my drones), as well as to harass expansions on the more open maps like Metalopolis. But building a Worm in the main of a competent opponent is doomed to failure.
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Zerg have the short end of it right now. They only have a handful of viable units, only one or two of which are that much different from each other. They have most pain in the butt macro mechanic which is not just a simple economy or production boost like T and P have, it is vital to just getting up to equal production, and it also scales in difficulty worse than the other two. Zerg has the least effective AoE in the game, no plague or dark swarm like in BW, no lurkers, just banelings (which are expensive in time and are suicide units), fungus, and ultras. Zerg are also outranged by T in almost all categories.
The advantages Zerg had in the original of swift production (hampered by micro intensive queen use), ease of switching builds (hampered just by lack of real effective units), and powerful and vital spells (fungus is cool for anti-micro and if the T is bad with his vikings and lets them get close but that's pretty much it) are gone and the only thing new that's come in to try and replace them is the roach. 
I was a Z player in BW but I'm going to wait a patch or two before I try playing much ladder Z. I just miss how Zerg used to be played, right now it doesn't seem like there's much to do besides 1a then go make sure you spawned larvae.
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On August 10 2010 03:37 Svizcy wrote:
Becasue 1 nuke doesnt teleport all your army over the whole map behind the back of the opponent.
Opponents dont need to be bad so you can use Nydaus or Doom drops vs them.
I seen SEN do it, i seen Dimaga do it.
In replay i provided you can also see how to deal with Thors with muta herras and win like that.
I'm traying to say you have viable options, that you just aren't ready to use the way your talking or at least that is what i understand from your post.
So the conclusion would be that there is nothing wrong except the fact that you and many others are just unwilling to adapt.
Sigh. It's not helping that terran players think they have the solution to everything while never attempting any of their solutions themselves. Nothing is viable. Like it's been said over and over again, 3 tanks at a choke, 3 missile turrets in main, supply depots scattered, etc, etc, will just be gg for any zerg mid game. The fact that we NEED to tech T3 makes this match up ridiculous, along with the fact that we have to spend a ridiculous amount of time or resources to get upgrades (eg. burrow roach) that will only have the chance to be effective one time. Also, how you plan on "doom" dropping with a full mech make up? A base trade will lose you the game no doubt. Lurkers/defiliers made a 200-200 match up fair. It shouldn't require 400 supply to beat 10ish tank/thors
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As Zerg, I would seriously consider a doom drop an all-in attack. That same wall I was trying to break into is also keeping me inside the base. If the terran has an amazingly concealed expo in a remote corner of the map (I do this all the time as any race), then he would have few qualms about exporting his army to annihilate all four or five zerg bases, all guaranteed to have insufficient resistance. A skeleton crew of a few tanks and marines could hold off maybe a few dozen units, depending on Z's army composition and quirks of the map. It is then reduced to who can find all the bases fastest. And we decided that drops were a good strat, right?
If I scouted ahead no turrets on a corner of a base, I might consider dropping while a distraction was going on at the wall.
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I would ocnsider a drop of a bunch of banelings+ultras+roaches right on top of the Terran mech army.. with enough thors and splash though, you could eat some losses, but OLs die really really slow to Thors so I think it'd be okay. Probably bring in a couple corruptors to corrupt the thors and take hits from the thors and vikings - totally sacrificial.
This is only really late-game though - midgame is still zerg trying to survive and outmacro while teching up and not even considering the idea of an offense.
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On August 10 2010 04:39 fdsdfg wrote:
I would ocnsider a drop of a bunch of banelings+ultras+roaches right on top of the Terran mech army.. with enough thors and splash though, you could eat some losses, but OLs die really really slow to Thors so I think it'd be okay.
This is my usual strategy to hold off mid-game pushes, but I once faced a player who had about 4-5 Vikings mixed in with his death ball, and those REALLY tear through your drop with their huge a-a range.
Plus it's not like he wasted the money he put into making them, he was using Vikings to snipe my Overlords all game.
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Honestly id be happy if they gave us swarm. Dont really need anything else. Add dark swarm and the game will be much more even.
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On August 10 2010 03:30 Vaporized wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2010 03:13 Svizcy wrote:On August 10 2010 01:14 fdsdfg wrote:
Look, there are a LOT of posts of "it's not the race's fault, it's just that all pro zerg players have no idea how to play starcraft. I never tried zerg but here's how you do it....."
If you can't see the absurdity in that, then just take these few points:
-Nydus and Doom drops are very easily countered at much less investment than the tactic itself.
-Tech switches aren't very useful when you have a total of four useful army units to build in the midgame (roaches, mutas, zerglings, hydras), and three of those will die to less than 1/4 their cost in the proper unit (muta/thor, zergling/hellion, hydra/tank).
-If the terran player is competent enough to prevent nydus and drops, then you have three avenues for aggression:
1) baneling bust before siege tanks are down
2) muta harass
3) throw crap at the choke
Since siege tanks comes out pretty quickly and muta harass is pretty easily repelled for only minerals, that just leaves #3. I havent said that Pro players dont know how to use Zerg. If you see such statement in my post plese show it to me casue i cant see it. Also, what do you want to point out here by saying that Nydaus is to expensive to use? It is a tunel that gives you acces to terrans or any other base and you can dodge the chocke where the most army of opponent is. Ofc if i see it i will kill it, but if i dont see it then it's gg most of the time. I think it is a risk you should be willing to take. Bassicly what your saying about Nydaus and Doom Drops is same as i would say "Medivacs are bad becasue opponent shoots them down if he see them" i mean, really?!! good day, svizcy just go play terran and quit trying to 'help' because you're really not. youre spelling is terrible too, if english isnt your first language then fine, if it is then christ our schools fail. how conceited do you have to be to tell a group of zerg players to doom drop or nydus? do you think we are all retarded? you obviously didnt take the time to read this thread, you were like hey a bunch of qq zerg. let me tell them what they are doing wrong.
And you obviously don't know what a capital letter nor an apostrophe are. Your post doesn't help the discussion, it just vents some of the frustration all Zerg players have against Terran at the moment.
That being said, I agree with your Doom Drop and Nydus sentiment. The Nydus dies quick and poops out units much too slowly. The Doom Drop is beyond nullified with a Sensor Tower (which is another thing that Terrans that I play have yet to abuse, but is easily something that might be realized in the future.)
Zerg players are focused down just a couple of paths that are easily countered with only a few units or buildings that the Terran most likely already has (or in the case of Mutas, will get very shortly after scanning/floating rax/walking in the front door).
On August 10 2010 03:57 ProTosS4EveR wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2010 03:44 fdsdfg wrote:
Drops, yes, but only useful when you have already destroyed the opponent's army - otherwise the opponent can attack and force you to go back to your main to defend or else lose the base race.
what about using doom drops in order to make opponent's nat or 3rd base empty and go destroy it with your HALF splitted army? If you do well, you kill main nexus + some probes + nat/3rd base
Well, mainly because that half an army gets nullified by a Planetary Fortress, unless said half all Mutas, in which case he'll also have a ton of Turrets sitting around to 6 shot your Mutas.
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EPT
