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On August 02 2010 10:36 RandomBS wrote:
Indepth eh? Well according to the OP all I have to do is follow those build orders and I'll win instantly every single game! So I didn't think indepth would be needed in this thread. To be completely honest it sounds like saracen just got facerolled on the ladder by a few terrans and made this thread to vent his rage.
More like I tried out Terran against Zerg a bit to see what all the fuss was about and I absolutely enjoyed it. Again, are you going to sit back here and talk all high and mighty behind your computer or are you going to back up your talk and play?
1. You insult my intelligence by trying to refute the fact that Thors counter Mutas and also imply that I don't know basic Zerg micro techniques.
2. You insult my skill, saying that I need to "get good."
3. I offer 5 replays, but you don't watch a single one. I offer 3 precise build orders and you ignore them all.
4. I offer to 1v1 with you, but you ignore me.
Who's the troll?
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i didn't know overlords and zergling's cant scout
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TvZ is by far the easiest matchup for me at the moment and I'm doing the 3 siegetank timing push which either straight up wins me the match or puts me way ahead in the econ over the zerg(which basically is a gg right there since I've yet to see a zerg win vs T on a one base apart from the occasional banelingbust) So if ANYONE is having problems with TvZ just check out the 3-tank push strategy and enjoy you 90%win 
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thors don't counter mutas as hard as people think they do. if your mutas aren't stacking they are taking no splash damage because the splash radius for thor's attack is 1 (one). people also tend to forget to factor in how mutas are made and how quickly they are made in comparison to thor.
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I believe thor splash radius is 0.5. I play terran as my main.
It is evident in those replays, that Saracen is raging like this: omg why do blizz keep buffing terran etc.
zerg so underpowered etc.
All those replays were on Lost temple so it doesn't prove anything. Play blistering sands and get baneling busted. So much whine and sarcasm, how is this guide even a guide? Saracen you just played against Lithium(same guy who doesnt know how to adapt, don't pick on him).
The Thor drop was basically a repeat on TLO thor drop vs Sen.
The key to counterattacking Thor drop on Lost temple is to make 2nd hatchery on spot-not at natural, quick tech to lair get overlord drop, while massing only roaches. Sen done this vs Tlo and won. That's why tlo loves reactoring vikings to overlord harass on large maps. The amount of roaches you will have will overwhelm the thors.
Also diamond league is easy to get into, who on Tl isn't? Think about the amount of noobie players in millions. Take a percentage of that and you've got a thousands of diamond leaguers. Everyone in my diamond league has ridiculously good win/loss ratios.
Also protoss is dominating the ladders.
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Saracen vs. Random please.
I doubt he will though. He's probably too busy enjoying a 90% TvZ win-rate in the Silver league. Too bad he gets raped in every other matchup.
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ehh what's with all the hate?
I was a mid diamond Zerg back in the beta and decided to switch to random for retail because I felt like playing the other races. Surprisingly, my Zerg play is what's holding back my rating.
I feel like to some degree, Saracen is right on the money. Plus I thought it was pretty funny 
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Not good for me.. since i play Z...
edit someone should make a similiar but for Zerg :D
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On August 02 2010 10:27 fdsdfg wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2010 10:16 SubtleArt wrote:
I love TvZ. So many options and almost any early tech path works And Zerg can't scout which tech path you're going! So Zerg has to waste so many resources defending against all of them. This is especially useful when the counter is more expensive than the tactic (LT cliff drop)
Lol the LT cliff is just terrible map design
Also, would make my day if some1 created a 3 tank 1 raven timing push XD
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On August 02 2010 11:21 OPSavioR wrote:
Not good for me.. since i play Z...
edit someone should make a similiar but for Zerg :D
You mean a guide to typing gg faster as soon as you determine the Terran player is not horribly incompetent ? :p
As for matches being on LT, LT is a relatively standard map so probably not a bad one to give a general impression of a matchup. The main issue with it is that there are 2-3 zerg favored/balanced maps (Metalopolis is balanced, Desert Oasis and Scrap Station are Zerg favored) and the rest are pretty Terran favored by either being cramped with no space to surround, having cliffs above the natural or having a natural and main so wide open and close that hellions are extremely hard to counter if they are even somewhat microed.
Zerg need an expand because they need the larva to get both defenses and an econ. Zerg also have a lot of trouble with cliffs early in the game because a lot of the units are short ranged or melee (which means that we need flyers or drop to get to the longer ranged terran units on cliffs). When the cliff stops the natural, the Zerg player is at a huge disadvantage off the start.
As for scouting, zerglings (well not really, they get to see a wall) and overlords (sacrificial) will see buildings. But, unlike against zerg, the building doesn't give away the strat (with some exceptions) and the strat can be quickly changed. A terran player can set up for hellion marauder and be producing siege tank or thor and double marine 10 seconds later after a couple swaps (and maybe an armory, which the Terran player could get anyways).
The issue there is that if you see a zerg player getting a hydra den right after lair, you know it isn't mutas right away whereas we scout a tech lab factory and it could be siege tank or thor (armories can be hidden) or preigniter hellions, all of which have completely different counters.
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Op is obviously incorrect, its is 117 of us having problems with the tvz match up. maybe im just bad, i have problems with the tvt tvp and tvz match ups.
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Nice Saracen. I've actually begun figuring out ZvT recently. My chronic whining syndrome started settling down. But it's still a despicable matchup from the zerg point of view.
Not as inclined in thinking it's imbalanced anymore, but it'll take me several months more to learn how to counter every one of the million variations available to terran.
Employing irony is dangerous though. Blizzard might buff terran again...
I'm almost finished writing a thread on TvZ balance suggestions, most of which aren't even really balance changes, but rather suggestions on making terran macro more taxing. Differentiating the real gosu terrans from the cheesy impostors.
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On August 02 2010 10:46 infinity21 wrote:
We obviously need to have a show match between Saracen and RandomBS to determine who is right.
clearly the only way. Saracen can commentate while he plays
edit: ZvT currently feels like TvP in brood war. I went through this exact same phase when I was learning terran and losing every game to those shitty b.net protoss players. Every freaking build they did was retarded (10/15 gate, reaver drop, dt expand, dt drop, bulldog, fast carrier, fast arbiter recall, 2 base 7 gate on python). Not only were their builds ridiculously strong but their standard units were freaking crazy. LoL I drop zealot on mine and tank explodes. The list goes on and the variations (putting two together ala 2 base reaver -> carrier) was even more deadly. I know how this feels all to well and we'll get past it soon.
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On August 02 2010 11:45 Sixes wrote:
As for scouting, zerglings (well not really, they get to see a wall) and overlords (sacrificial) will see buildings. But, unlike against zerg, the building doesn't give away the strat (with some exceptions) and the strat can be quickly changed. A terran player can set up for hellion marauder and be producing siege tank or thor and double marine 10 seconds later after a couple swaps (and maybe an armory, which the Terran player could get anyways).
The issue there is that if you see a zerg player getting a hydra den right after lair, you know it isn't mutas right away whereas we scout a tech lab factory and it could be siege tank or thor (armories can be hidden) or preigniter hellions, all of which have completely different counters.
This is one of my biggest frustrations. T can just get a decent wall and then Z has to be prepared for everything T does.
Z is expected to waste resources preparing for tactics that never happen (cliff drop, reapers, etc), sac overlords for intel, and seize map control. T doesn't need to scout - he just walls in enough to prevent a baneling bust, gets defenses up for mutalisks, and makes sure a nydus doesn't appear in his base. If he does all of this, Z cannot end the game until T3 unless he does a doom drop.
I really hate the idea of a doom drop because overlords are slow enough that T can just send his army at the Zerg's base and force a base race - and as we know, T cannot lose a base race. Z can also just plain get unlucky and see a MMM drop happen in his main as his army is being carried outside the opponent's base.
My point is that Z doesn't just have to play reactionary as usual - he has to prepare for every possible thing the T can do because he has a much harder time getting any useful intel. If you see 4 rax and some with reactors, then yeah you know you should go banelings - but I'm talking about things like cloaked banshees, hellion drops, tank drops, etc.
A T player sure would look amazing if he did all of these in a game, but Z has to be prepared for all of these every game. Otherwise he could get caught off guard by a strategy he couldn't have seen coming.
I just faced a ZvT on Scrap station - around the time T2 was starting up, I sacced two overlords for intel. He had 6 marines and they shot down the overlords - I never saw his starport and ate drops. He had a wall so obviously a zergling is out of the question. I really had no way to know he was planning to drop until I saw the units unloading in my base - and I don't see what I could have done to know it was coming.
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BC rush is possible if you pickup some hellions on the way and you're TLO
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On August 02 2010 10:46 infinity21 wrote:
We obviously need to have a show match between Saracen and RandomBS to determine who is right.
^^ Day9 will drink all manner of energy drinks and commentate.
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On August 02 2010 12:05 fdsdfg wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2010 11:45 Sixes wrote:
As for scouting, zerglings (well not really, they get to see a wall) and overlords (sacrificial) will see buildings. But, unlike against zerg, the building doesn't give away the strat (with some exceptions) and the strat can be quickly changed. A terran player can set up for hellion marauder and be producing siege tank or thor and double marine 10 seconds later after a couple swaps (and maybe an armory, which the Terran player could get anyways).
The issue there is that if you see a zerg player getting a hydra den right after lair, you know it isn't mutas right away whereas we scout a tech lab factory and it could be siege tank or thor (armories can be hidden) or preigniter hellions, all of which have completely different counters. This is one of my biggest frustrations. T can just get a decent wall and then Z has to be prepared for everything T does. Z is expected to waste resources preparing for tactics that never happen (cliff drop, reapers, etc), sac overlords for intel, and seize map control. T doesn't need to scout - he just walls in enough to prevent a baneling bust, gets defenses up for mutalisks, and makes sure a nydus doesn't appear in his base. If he does all of this, Z cannot end the game until T3 unless he does a doom drop. I really hate the idea of a doom drop because overlords are slow enough that T can just send his army at the Zerg's base and force a base race - and as we know, T cannot lose a base race. Z can also just plain get unlucky and see a MMM drop happen in his main as his army is being carried outside the opponent's base. My point is that Z doesn't just have to play reactionary as usual - he has to prepare for every possible thing the T can do because he has a much harder time getting any useful intel. If you see 4 rax and some with reactors, then yeah you know you should go banelings - but I'm talking about things like cloaked banshees, hellion drops, tank drops, etc. A T player sure would look amazing if he did all of these in a game, but Z has to be prepared for all of these every game. Otherwise he could get caught off guard by a strategy he couldn't have seen coming. I just faced a ZvT on Scrap station - around the time T2 was starting up, I sacced two overlords for intel. He had 6 marines and they shot down the overlords - I never saw his starport and ate drops. He had a wall so obviously a zergling is out of the question. I really had no way to know he was planning to drop until I saw the units unloading in my base - and I don't see what I could have done to know it was coming.
it's funny cause people said the exact same thing about PvZ before bisu.
in fact, this whole TvZ imbalance business sounds like a rehash of old PvZ threads. right down to the "i switch to X race and won ezly lol!"
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On August 02 2010 12:01 kNyTTyM wrote:
edit: ZvT currently feels like TvP in brood war. I went through this exact same phase when I was learning terran and losing every game to those shitty b.net protoss players. Every freaking build they did was retarded (10/15 gate, reaver drop, dt expand, dt drop, bulldog, fast carrier, fast arbiter recall, 2 base 7 gate on python). Not only were their builds ridiculously strong but their standard units were freaking crazy. LoL I drop zealot on mine and tank explodes. The list goes on and the variations (putting two together ala 2 base reaver -> carrier) was even more deadly. I know how this feels all to well and we'll get past it soon.
I think this is actually a pretty good comparison. I don't feel like ZvT at high level is imbalanced at all, with the exception of hugely terran favored maps like LT or Kulas. Zerg however requires a great knowledge of timings, compositions, much better mechanics, and excellent scouting and information processing. Terran just requires making a wall, making units and attacking.
I think we'll see zerg be considered "not as viable" or "underpowered" for a while until zerg players pass a certain skill level, similar to TvP in BW.
I do think that T needs a handful of nerfs, however. Turrets are too strong, marauders shouldn't get or benefit from stim so much, and reaper speed should be back to 100/100.
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On August 02 2010 12:11 mahnini wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2010 12:05 fdsdfg wrote:On August 02 2010 11:45 Sixes wrote:
As for scouting, zerglings (well not really, they get to see a wall) and overlords (sacrificial) will see buildings. But, unlike against zerg, the building doesn't give away the strat (with some exceptions) and the strat can be quickly changed. A terran player can set up for hellion marauder and be producing siege tank or thor and double marine 10 seconds later after a couple swaps (and maybe an armory, which the Terran player could get anyways).
The issue there is that if you see a zerg player getting a hydra den right after lair, you know it isn't mutas right away whereas we scout a tech lab factory and it could be siege tank or thor (armories can be hidden) or preigniter hellions, all of which have completely different counters. This is one of my biggest frustrations. T can just get a decent wall and then Z has to be prepared for everything T does. Z is expected to waste resources preparing for tactics that never happen (cliff drop, reapers, etc), sac overlords for intel, and seize map control. T doesn't need to scout - he just walls in enough to prevent a baneling bust, gets defenses up for mutalisks, and makes sure a nydus doesn't appear in his base. If he does all of this, Z cannot end the game until T3 unless he does a doom drop. I really hate the idea of a doom drop because overlords are slow enough that T can just send his army at the Zerg's base and force a base race - and as we know, T cannot lose a base race. Z can also just plain get unlucky and see a MMM drop happen in his main as his army is being carried outside the opponent's base. My point is that Z doesn't just have to play reactionary as usual - he has to prepare for every possible thing the T can do because he has a much harder time getting any useful intel. If you see 4 rax and some with reactors, then yeah you know you should go banelings - but I'm talking about things like cloaked banshees, hellion drops, tank drops, etc. A T player sure would look amazing if he did all of these in a game, but Z has to be prepared for all of these every game. Otherwise he could get caught off guard by a strategy he couldn't have seen coming. I just faced a ZvT on Scrap station - around the time T2 was starting up, I sacced two overlords for intel. He had 6 marines and they shot down the overlords - I never saw his starport and ate drops. He had a wall so obviously a zergling is out of the question. I really had no way to know he was planning to drop until I saw the units unloading in my base - and I don't see what I could have done to know it was coming. it's funny cause people said the exact same thing about PvZ before bisu.
I can't defend the fact that other people have been wrong about something similar - but be clear that this does not imply any of my points are wrong. If you disagree, disagree with my points. Saying that there's a chance I could be wrong is silly, I'm not an idiot, I know I could be wrong. I can only speak from my experience and analysis.
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EPT
