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It has come to my attention that 116 of you are having trouble with the TvZ matchup. If you are one of those 116 people, this thread is just for you. Here, I will teach you how to win this oh so terrible matchup and help you realize that it is actually really quite fun to play. So, are you ready to start some major ass kicking? Damn straight. Let's get started.
So, everyone knows Terran has lots of cool flashy units they can play around with, more than any other race, in fact. They have hellions which hard counter zerglings, marauders which hard counter roaches, thors which hard counter mutalisks, and siege tanks which hard counter hydralisks. But that's not all. The absolute best part about Terran is that they have literally a billion openings they can choose from, each just as viable as the next. And, what's even better, the map pool makes some of these openings just that much harder (or even, dare I say it, impossible) to defend against. You find yourself spawning on Lost Temple or Kulas Ravine? Go 8 rax reaper or thor drop or siege tank drop. Or maybe you're playing on one of those new maps where the ramp is light years away from the natural? Do a nice reactor hellion opening, or even just take a page out of the Protoss's book and do a simple 1 base all-in attack.
Here's a little guide for your options:
Thor Drop (use exclusively on Lost Temple and Kulas Ravine):
10 supply
12 rax
13 gas
15 OC/supply
@ 100 gas, factory
take your 2nd gas ASAP
@ 50% factory, get a tech lab on your rax
@ 100% factory, build an armory and switch your rax and fac
start building hellions for early pressure and try to force him to over-commit on defense
build a starport when gas allows
get a viking for some sweet ovie hunting, then build a medivac
build a thor when the armory finishes
drop the thor on the natural ledge and kill his expo
congratulations, you win!
take your expo and transition into a unit composition of your choosing (I personally prefer marine/marauder/medivac/thor)
Replay
Replay
8 Rax Reaper (use on any map):
8 rax
9 gas
11 supply
tech lab when rax finishes
nitro packs with next 50 gas
keep building reapers
have your scout SCV build a bunker somewhere in his base (at his ramp if he's on 1 base, at his natural if he's on 2)
add more rax and keep building reaper
micro your reapers - like hellions, micro'd reapers beat any non-lair unit zerg has due to range and speed
snipe key buildings - you'll be surprised how fast 8+ reapers kill a spawning pool or a spire or a roach warren
congratulations, you win!
Replay
Igniter Hellion Drop (use on any map):
10 supply
12 rax
13 gas
15 OC/supply
@ 100 gas, factory
take your second gas ASAP
tech lab on your rax next
@ 100% factory, switch fac and rax and build a hellion and start infernal pre-igniter research
starport with your next 100 gas
medivac once starport is done
feel free to pressure with your first few hellions (force sunks at his nat) as long as you don't lose them - they're precious 
once your medivac is out, you should have 4 hellions ready to drop into his main
drop your hellions in his main and fry all his drones
congratulations, you win!
Replay
Replay
A note on the replays: Keep in mind that I'm a diamond level Zerg player offracing as Terran against equally skilled opponents.
Just three openings, you ask? Don't be silly! You see, I'm not going to tell you all of the wonderful secrets this deep and mysterious race has to offer! That, my friend, is for you to discover on your own. I'll give you a little hint, though. As long as you're spending all of your money and getting your units out in a timely manner (as fast as possible), anything's viable (except maybe a battlecruiser rush). Want to try hellion into banshee into viking? Go ahead, it will probably work. Or a marauder hellion attack on maps with a short rush distance? Go for it!
I am just speaking from my own experience as both a Zerg player and a TvZ player. This is a matchup you really should not be losing, especially in the current map pool, as long as you're not playing someone light years better than you. For any of you Zerg or Terran players who don't believe me, I'm up for any and all challenges. So thanks to Blizzard, for making such a fun and diverse matchup. I've only played about 20 games so far in TvZ, but I'm loving every minute of it! I have so much control over the game flow, and I have so many possibilities. Blizzard, you've really outdone yourselves this time!
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Nice guide. I'm sure this will boost all of you struggling to at least 60% win rate in this matchup.
Also if your opponent doesn't immediately leave after the hellions get dropped, start making cloaked banshees.
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I love TvZ. So many options and almost any early tech path works
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thors which hard counter mutalisks
False.
Stop 1a'ing
Your obvious butthurt and scathing sarcasm over not being able to beat terran as zerg really shows through the entire post. TL staff should be above posts like this. Race switch or get good.
User was warned for this post
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On August 02 2010 10:12 kNyTTyM wrote:
Nice guide. I'm sure this will boost all of you struggling to at least 60% win rate in this matchup.
Also if your opponent doesn't immediately leave after the hellions get dropped, start making cloaked banshees.
Oh that's just plain rude lol
Harassing zerg enough will kill him psychologically and if he has a lot of expos, it's just that much better for you.
One cool build that mrlie3 posted a while ago that used early ghosts to nuke tech structures. If the zergs neglects to get an overseer, two nukes will put him back so far. And snipes can handle hydras and mutas pretty well if you have good mouse control (which I don't  )
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On August 02 2010 10:16 SubtleArt wrote:
I love TvZ. So many options and almost any early tech path works
And Zerg can't scout which tech path you're going! So Zerg has to waste so many resources defending against all of them. This is especially useful when the counter is more expensive than the tactic (LT cliff drop)
On August 02 2010 10:23 RandomBS wrote:False. Stop 1a'ing Your obvious butthurt and scathing sarcasm over not being able to beat terran as zerg really shows through the entire post. TL staff should be above posts like this. Race switch or get good.
With a perfect split, 4 mutalisks are about even with 1 thor.
With more of both, the numbers move to favor the thor (because the mutas inevitably need to enter splash range to focus fire).
That's not a counter?
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On August 02 2010 10:23 RandomBS wrote:False. Stop 1a'ing Your obvious butthurt and scathing sarcasm over not being able to beat terran as zerg really shows through the entire post. TL staff should be above posts like this. Race switch or get good.
Thors do counter Mutas quite well? One thor (300/200) easily beat 3 mutas (300/300) and as the numbers get bigger, more mutas become affected by the splash.
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infinity21
Canada6683 Posts
In my defense, I play T lol
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and as the numbers get bigger, more mutas become affected by the splash.
Like I said, stop 1aing. Split them.
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On August 02 2010 10:31 RandomBS wrote:Like I said, stop 1aing. Split them.
How many mutas can be in range of a thor without allowing themselves to eat splash damage?
It's not a rhetorical question, the answer is about 6
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On August 02 2010 10:31 RandomBS wrote:Like I said, stop 1aing. Split them.
Are you contributing anything? You'll find your "randomBS" statements not appreciated. As numbers get bigger, it's harder to split, especially flying units. You're response is the equivalent of saying "storm doesn't counter hydra in BW, you just storm dodge and split them." With the exception you don't even go that far in depth with your response.
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On August 02 2010 10:23 RandomBS wrote:False. Stop 1a'ing Your obvious butthurt and scathing sarcasm over not being able to beat terran as zerg really shows through the entire post. TL staff should be above posts like this. Race switch or get good.
Lurkers may not hard counter marines but I'm not going to risk attacking into 6 of them even with micro.
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On August 02 2010 10:23 RandomBS wrote:False. Stop 1a'ing Your obvious butthurt and scathing sarcasm over not being able to beat terran as zerg really shows through the entire post. TL staff should be above posts like this. Race switch or get good.
For any of you Zerg or Terran players who don't believe me, I'm up for any and all challenges.
I'll play either matchup: ZvT or TvZ. Up to you.
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Indepth eh? Well according to the OP all I have to do is follow those build orders and I'll win instantly every single game! So I didn't think indepth would be needed in this thread. To be completely honest it sounds like saracen just got facerolled on the ladder by a few terrans and made this thread to vent his rage.
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On August 02 2010 10:36 RandomBS wrote:
Indepth eh? Well according to the OP all I have to do is follow those build orders and I'll win instantly every single game! So I didn't think indepth would be needed in this thread. To be completely honest it sounds like saracen just got facerolled on the ladder by a few terrans and made this thread to vent his rage.
So the OP isn't detailed - that's your defense for being as vague and combative as possible?
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On August 02 2010 10:36 RandomBS wrote:
Indepth eh? Well according to the OP all I have to do is follow those build orders and I'll win instantly every single game! So I didn't think indepth would be needed in this thread. To be completely honest it sounds like saracen just got facerolled on the ladder by a few terrans and made this thread to vent his rage.
I'm saying your response to other people in the thread with retarded comments such as "stop 1aing" and repeating it isn't clever. I would say Saracen's OP is far in depth enough, giving precise build orders AND replays.
Your posts are bad enough that I've been on the border on deciding whether or not to report them (I didn't, fyi).
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On August 02 2010 10:37 fdsdfg wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2010 10:36 RandomBS wrote:
Indepth eh? Well according to the OP all I have to do is follow those build orders and I'll win instantly every single game! So I didn't think indepth would be needed in this thread. To be completely honest it sounds like saracen just got facerolled on the ladder by a few terrans and made this thread to vent his rage. So the OP isn't detailed - that's your defense for being as vague and combative as possible?
Yes, the entire point of my shitty troll posts are that this is a bad, inflammatory It thread, and the OP should really be ashamed for making it. And he knows it. It's the kind of thing a new poster like me would be flamed/suspended for.
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On August 02 2010 10:41 RandomBS wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2010 10:37 fdsdfg wrote:On August 02 2010 10:36 RandomBS wrote:
Indepth eh? Well according to the OP all I have to do is follow those build orders and I'll win instantly every single game! So I didn't think indepth would be needed in this thread. To be completely honest it sounds like saracen just got facerolled on the ladder by a few terrans and made this thread to vent his rage. So the OP isn't detailed - that's your defense for being as vague and combative as possible? Yes, the entire point of my shitty troll posts are that this is a bad, inflammatory It thread, and the OP should really be ashamed for making it. And he knows it. It's the kind of thing a new poster like me would be flamed/suspended for.
I don't know Saracen very well, but I've seen tons of staff humor inserted into plenty of threads. Ever see Chill's posts?
He included an relatively precise build order guide on a matchup, and was referencing how he thought it was amusing some people thought the MU was balanced in favor of Zerg. Clearly the poll shows the majority opinion is clearly the opposite.
If someone made a guide with this humor referring to ZvP in BW prior to the Protoss Revolution by Bisu, everyone would understand it. The humor originates from a general consensus amongst players that TvZ is in favor of T. All I've seen you done is not use humor, but have "shitty troll posts," that you admit to. Which is the kind of thing a new poster like you is being flamed for and would be suspended for.
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infinity21
Canada6683 Posts
We obviously need to have a show match between Saracen and RandomBS to determine who is right.
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On August 02 2010 10:36 RandomBS wrote:
Indepth eh? Well according to the OP all I have to do is follow those build orders and I'll win instantly every single game! So I didn't think indepth would be needed in this thread. To be completely honest it sounds like saracen just got facerolled on the ladder by a few terrans and made this thread to vent his rage.
More like I tried out Terran against Zerg a bit to see what all the fuss was about and I absolutely enjoyed it. Again, are you going to sit back here and talk all high and mighty behind your computer or are you going to back up your talk and play?
1. You insult my intelligence by trying to refute the fact that Thors counter Mutas and also imply that I don't know basic Zerg micro techniques.
2. You insult my skill, saying that I need to "get good."
3. I offer 5 replays, but you don't watch a single one. I offer 3 precise build orders and you ignore them all.
4. I offer to 1v1 with you, but you ignore me.
Who's the troll?
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i didn't know overlords and zergling's cant scout
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TvZ is by far the easiest matchup for me at the moment and I'm doing the 3 siegetank timing push which either straight up wins me the match or puts me way ahead in the econ over the zerg(which basically is a gg right there since I've yet to see a zerg win vs T on a one base apart from the occasional banelingbust) So if ANYONE is having problems with TvZ just check out the 3-tank push strategy and enjoy you 90%win
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thors don't counter mutas as hard as people think they do. if your mutas aren't stacking they are taking no splash damage because the splash radius for thor's attack is 1 (one). people also tend to forget to factor in how mutas are made and how quickly they are made in comparison to thor.
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I believe thor splash radius is 0.5. I play terran as my main.
It is evident in those replays, that Saracen is raging like this: omg why do blizz keep buffing terran etc.
zerg so underpowered etc.
All those replays were on Lost temple so it doesn't prove anything. Play blistering sands and get baneling busted. So much whine and sarcasm, how is this guide even a guide? Saracen you just played against Lithium(same guy who doesnt know how to adapt, don't pick on him).
The Thor drop was basically a repeat on TLO thor drop vs Sen.
The key to counterattacking Thor drop on Lost temple is to make 2nd hatchery on spot-not at natural, quick tech to lair get overlord drop, while massing only roaches. Sen done this vs Tlo and won. That's why tlo loves reactoring vikings to overlord harass on large maps. The amount of roaches you will have will overwhelm the thors.
Also diamond league is easy to get into, who on Tl isn't? Think about the amount of noobie players in millions. Take a percentage of that and you've got a thousands of diamond leaguers. Everyone in my diamond league has ridiculously good win/loss ratios.
Also protoss is dominating the ladders.
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Saracen vs. Random please.
I doubt he will though. He's probably too busy enjoying a 90% TvZ win-rate in the Silver league. Too bad he gets raped in every other matchup.
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ehh what's with all the hate?
I was a mid diamond Zerg back in the beta and decided to switch to random for retail because I felt like playing the other races. Surprisingly, my Zerg play is what's holding back my rating.
I feel like to some degree, Saracen is right on the money. Plus I thought it was pretty funny 
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Not good for me.. since i play Z...
edit someone should make a similiar but for Zerg :D
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On August 02 2010 10:27 fdsdfg wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2010 10:16 SubtleArt wrote:
I love TvZ. So many options and almost any early tech path works And Zerg can't scout which tech path you're going! So Zerg has to waste so many resources defending against all of them. This is especially useful when the counter is more expensive than the tactic (LT cliff drop)
Lol the LT cliff is just terrible map design
Also, would make my day if some1 created a 3 tank 1 raven timing push XD
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On August 02 2010 11:21 OPSavioR wrote:
Not good for me.. since i play Z...
edit someone should make a similiar but for Zerg :D
You mean a guide to typing gg faster as soon as you determine the Terran player is not horribly incompetent ? :p
As for matches being on LT, LT is a relatively standard map so probably not a bad one to give a general impression of a matchup. The main issue with it is that there are 2-3 zerg favored/balanced maps (Metalopolis is balanced, Desert Oasis and Scrap Station are Zerg favored) and the rest are pretty Terran favored by either being cramped with no space to surround, having cliffs above the natural or having a natural and main so wide open and close that hellions are extremely hard to counter if they are even somewhat microed.
Zerg need an expand because they need the larva to get both defenses and an econ. Zerg also have a lot of trouble with cliffs early in the game because a lot of the units are short ranged or melee (which means that we need flyers or drop to get to the longer ranged terran units on cliffs). When the cliff stops the natural, the Zerg player is at a huge disadvantage off the start.
As for scouting, zerglings (well not really, they get to see a wall) and overlords (sacrificial) will see buildings. But, unlike against zerg, the building doesn't give away the strat (with some exceptions) and the strat can be quickly changed. A terran player can set up for hellion marauder and be producing siege tank or thor and double marine 10 seconds later after a couple swaps (and maybe an armory, which the Terran player could get anyways).
The issue there is that if you see a zerg player getting a hydra den right after lair, you know it isn't mutas right away whereas we scout a tech lab factory and it could be siege tank or thor (armories can be hidden) or preigniter hellions, all of which have completely different counters.
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Op is obviously incorrect, its is 117 of us having problems with the tvz match up. maybe im just bad, i have problems with the tvt tvp and tvz match ups.
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Nice Saracen. I've actually begun figuring out ZvT recently. My chronic whining syndrome started settling down. But it's still a despicable matchup from the zerg point of view.
Not as inclined in thinking it's imbalanced anymore, but it'll take me several months more to learn how to counter every one of the million variations available to terran.
Employing irony is dangerous though. Blizzard might buff terran again...
I'm almost finished writing a thread on TvZ balance suggestions, most of which aren't even really balance changes, but rather suggestions on making terran macro more taxing. Differentiating the real gosu terrans from the cheesy impostors.
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On August 02 2010 10:46 infinity21 wrote:
We obviously need to have a show match between Saracen and RandomBS to determine who is right.
clearly the only way. Saracen can commentate while he plays
edit: ZvT currently feels like TvP in brood war. I went through this exact same phase when I was learning terran and losing every game to those shitty b.net protoss players. Every freaking build they did was retarded (10/15 gate, reaver drop, dt expand, dt drop, bulldog, fast carrier, fast arbiter recall, 2 base 7 gate on python). Not only were their builds ridiculously strong but their standard units were freaking crazy. LoL I drop zealot on mine and tank explodes. The list goes on and the variations (putting two together ala 2 base reaver -> carrier) was even more deadly. I know how this feels all to well and we'll get past it soon.
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On August 02 2010 11:45 Sixes wrote:
As for scouting, zerglings (well not really, they get to see a wall) and overlords (sacrificial) will see buildings. But, unlike against zerg, the building doesn't give away the strat (with some exceptions) and the strat can be quickly changed. A terran player can set up for hellion marauder and be producing siege tank or thor and double marine 10 seconds later after a couple swaps (and maybe an armory, which the Terran player could get anyways).
The issue there is that if you see a zerg player getting a hydra den right after lair, you know it isn't mutas right away whereas we scout a tech lab factory and it could be siege tank or thor (armories can be hidden) or preigniter hellions, all of which have completely different counters.
This is one of my biggest frustrations. T can just get a decent wall and then Z has to be prepared for everything T does.
Z is expected to waste resources preparing for tactics that never happen (cliff drop, reapers, etc), sac overlords for intel, and seize map control. T doesn't need to scout - he just walls in enough to prevent a baneling bust, gets defenses up for mutalisks, and makes sure a nydus doesn't appear in his base. If he does all of this, Z cannot end the game until T3 unless he does a doom drop.
I really hate the idea of a doom drop because overlords are slow enough that T can just send his army at the Zerg's base and force a base race - and as we know, T cannot lose a base race. Z can also just plain get unlucky and see a MMM drop happen in his main as his army is being carried outside the opponent's base.
My point is that Z doesn't just have to play reactionary as usual - he has to prepare for every possible thing the T can do because he has a much harder time getting any useful intel. If you see 4 rax and some with reactors, then yeah you know you should go banelings - but I'm talking about things like cloaked banshees, hellion drops, tank drops, etc.
A T player sure would look amazing if he did all of these in a game, but Z has to be prepared for all of these every game. Otherwise he could get caught off guard by a strategy he couldn't have seen coming.
I just faced a ZvT on Scrap station - around the time T2 was starting up, I sacced two overlords for intel. He had 6 marines and they shot down the overlords - I never saw his starport and ate drops. He had a wall so obviously a zergling is out of the question. I really had no way to know he was planning to drop until I saw the units unloading in my base - and I don't see what I could have done to know it was coming.
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BC rush is possible if you pickup some hellions on the way and you're TLO
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On August 02 2010 10:46 infinity21 wrote:
We obviously need to have a show match between Saracen and RandomBS to determine who is right.
^^ Day9 will drink all manner of energy drinks and commentate.
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On August 02 2010 12:05 fdsdfg wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2010 11:45 Sixes wrote:
As for scouting, zerglings (well not really, they get to see a wall) and overlords (sacrificial) will see buildings. But, unlike against zerg, the building doesn't give away the strat (with some exceptions) and the strat can be quickly changed. A terran player can set up for hellion marauder and be producing siege tank or thor and double marine 10 seconds later after a couple swaps (and maybe an armory, which the Terran player could get anyways).
The issue there is that if you see a zerg player getting a hydra den right after lair, you know it isn't mutas right away whereas we scout a tech lab factory and it could be siege tank or thor (armories can be hidden) or preigniter hellions, all of which have completely different counters. This is one of my biggest frustrations. T can just get a decent wall and then Z has to be prepared for everything T does. Z is expected to waste resources preparing for tactics that never happen (cliff drop, reapers, etc), sac overlords for intel, and seize map control. T doesn't need to scout - he just walls in enough to prevent a baneling bust, gets defenses up for mutalisks, and makes sure a nydus doesn't appear in his base. If he does all of this, Z cannot end the game until T3 unless he does a doom drop. I really hate the idea of a doom drop because overlords are slow enough that T can just send his army at the Zerg's base and force a base race - and as we know, T cannot lose a base race. Z can also just plain get unlucky and see a MMM drop happen in his main as his army is being carried outside the opponent's base. My point is that Z doesn't just have to play reactionary as usual - he has to prepare for every possible thing the T can do because he has a much harder time getting any useful intel. If you see 4 rax and some with reactors, then yeah you know you should go banelings - but I'm talking about things like cloaked banshees, hellion drops, tank drops, etc. A T player sure would look amazing if he did all of these in a game, but Z has to be prepared for all of these every game. Otherwise he could get caught off guard by a strategy he couldn't have seen coming. I just faced a ZvT on Scrap station - around the time T2 was starting up, I sacced two overlords for intel. He had 6 marines and they shot down the overlords - I never saw his starport and ate drops. He had a wall so obviously a zergling is out of the question. I really had no way to know he was planning to drop until I saw the units unloading in my base - and I don't see what I could have done to know it was coming.
it's funny cause people said the exact same thing about PvZ before bisu.
in fact, this whole TvZ imbalance business sounds like a rehash of old PvZ threads. right down to the "i switch to X race and won ezly lol!"
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On August 02 2010 12:01 kNyTTyM wrote:
edit: ZvT currently feels like TvP in brood war. I went through this exact same phase when I was learning terran and losing every game to those shitty b.net protoss players. Every freaking build they did was retarded (10/15 gate, reaver drop, dt expand, dt drop, bulldog, fast carrier, fast arbiter recall, 2 base 7 gate on python). Not only were their builds ridiculously strong but their standard units were freaking crazy. LoL I drop zealot on mine and tank explodes. The list goes on and the variations (putting two together ala 2 base reaver -> carrier) was even more deadly. I know how this feels all to well and we'll get past it soon.
I think this is actually a pretty good comparison. I don't feel like ZvT at high level is imbalanced at all, with the exception of hugely terran favored maps like LT or Kulas. Zerg however requires a great knowledge of timings, compositions, much better mechanics, and excellent scouting and information processing. Terran just requires making a wall, making units and attacking.
I think we'll see zerg be considered "not as viable" or "underpowered" for a while until zerg players pass a certain skill level, similar to TvP in BW.
I do think that T needs a handful of nerfs, however. Turrets are too strong, marauders shouldn't get or benefit from stim so much, and reaper speed should be back to 100/100.
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On August 02 2010 12:11 mahnini wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2010 12:05 fdsdfg wrote:On August 02 2010 11:45 Sixes wrote:
As for scouting, zerglings (well not really, they get to see a wall) and overlords (sacrificial) will see buildings. But, unlike against zerg, the building doesn't give away the strat (with some exceptions) and the strat can be quickly changed. A terran player can set up for hellion marauder and be producing siege tank or thor and double marine 10 seconds later after a couple swaps (and maybe an armory, which the Terran player could get anyways).
The issue there is that if you see a zerg player getting a hydra den right after lair, you know it isn't mutas right away whereas we scout a tech lab factory and it could be siege tank or thor (armories can be hidden) or preigniter hellions, all of which have completely different counters. This is one of my biggest frustrations. T can just get a decent wall and then Z has to be prepared for everything T does. Z is expected to waste resources preparing for tactics that never happen (cliff drop, reapers, etc), sac overlords for intel, and seize map control. T doesn't need to scout - he just walls in enough to prevent a baneling bust, gets defenses up for mutalisks, and makes sure a nydus doesn't appear in his base. If he does all of this, Z cannot end the game until T3 unless he does a doom drop. I really hate the idea of a doom drop because overlords are slow enough that T can just send his army at the Zerg's base and force a base race - and as we know, T cannot lose a base race. Z can also just plain get unlucky and see a MMM drop happen in his main as his army is being carried outside the opponent's base. My point is that Z doesn't just have to play reactionary as usual - he has to prepare for every possible thing the T can do because he has a much harder time getting any useful intel. If you see 4 rax and some with reactors, then yeah you know you should go banelings - but I'm talking about things like cloaked banshees, hellion drops, tank drops, etc. A T player sure would look amazing if he did all of these in a game, but Z has to be prepared for all of these every game. Otherwise he could get caught off guard by a strategy he couldn't have seen coming. I just faced a ZvT on Scrap station - around the time T2 was starting up, I sacced two overlords for intel. He had 6 marines and they shot down the overlords - I never saw his starport and ate drops. He had a wall so obviously a zergling is out of the question. I really had no way to know he was planning to drop until I saw the units unloading in my base - and I don't see what I could have done to know it was coming. it's funny cause people said the exact same thing about PvZ before bisu.
I can't defend the fact that other people have been wrong about something similar - but be clear that this does not imply any of my points are wrong. If you disagree, disagree with my points. Saying that there's a chance I could be wrong is silly, I'm not an idiot, I know I could be wrong. I can only speak from my experience and analysis.
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United States10774 Posts
hey dan do u want revenge on our zvp sometime? it has been looking deadly similar to our broodwar days, huh?
nice guide btw bro
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On August 02 2010 11:57 LaLuSh wrote:
Nice Saracen. I've actually begun figuring out ZvT recently. My chronic whining syndrome started settling down. But it's still a despicable matchup from the zerg point of view.
Not as inclined in thinking it's imbalanced anymore, but it'll take me several months more to learn how to counter every one of the million variations available to terran.
Employing irony is dangerous though. Blizzard might buff terran again...
I'm almost finished writing a thread on TvZ balance suggestions, most of which aren't even really balance changes, but rather suggestions on making terran macro more taxing. Differentiating the real gosu terrans from the cheesy impostors.
Yeah this thread was just for shits and giggles, but maybe some Terran players will find it helpful as well. I'm planning on writing something more constructive in the future.
Ray, I never see you online. You gotta add me, bro
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TvZ is banging. Its pretty true that terran owns this MU at the moment. the only tvz's ive lost were due to my computer crashing. Actually all but 5 losses are due to that, damn ati.
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RandomBS vs Saracen BO5 Showmatch. Day9 commentary. It needs to happen!
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Hey lets bandwagon the popular guy, that'll fix the imaginary problems that korea and idra are strangely immune too.
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Hey let's jump on the Korean Zerg bandwagon. I hear they're really tearing shit up.
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Yeah, unfortunately Saracen has it, and it makes me rather sad as a T player that the matchup is this way. I wonder when different maps will be introduced, because it seems that it is as much the map's fault as T themselves.
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Oh, Saracen, the introduction made me laugh, thank you
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The problem with this match-up is the number of options the Terran has, and the number of responses the zerg has. And the fact the Terran is in complete control
Reapers: should in most cases win the game outright with correct control. Counters all Zerg ground when micro'ed correctly, also achieves map control and forces the zerg to remain on base.
Helions: Map control, forces roaches or spinecrawler to defend, betas lings when micro'd correctly cost for cost.
Banshee: often transitioned to from helions: forces zerg to play defensive as it negates any possible tier 1 attack, also delays zerg lair as he is forced to make queens.
Mech army: when Detectors are in play, ultimately it is unstoppable with anything nearing efficiency. having problems with drops? Sensor tower is here!
Bio army: if detection is used correctly along with proper counter bling micro, can beat mopst zerg compositions along with being porbably the most mobile force in the game aside from air.
Now lets look at zerg:
tier 1 Your on the defense the entire time. You are attemting to saturate your natural without getting rolled or losing all of your drones. You must blindly invest in speedling's because the tech is too slow if you get reaper'ed or helion for you to tech in time.
Tier 2: options open up, roach burrow if the Terran is bad, infestors if he messes up or mutas if hes just god aweful.
Tier 3: How the hell did you make it this far? well in any case there not much left to do, The terran mech army is at your door, with enough tanks to 1 shot the nerfed ultra and enough vikings to handily kill any BL's
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After losing 6 straight ZvT, I decided to bump this thread in order for Random to walk the walk.
And the worst part? After losing one game, I was matched up immediately with the same guy on the very same map, and he still managed to thrash me a completely new way.
1 base Bio push, 1 base Hellion push, 1 base Tank push, Reaper harass into Hellion harass into another god damn Tank push. Thorshop, Tank drops, cloaked Banshees. And if any of these don't win the game outright, he expands and I lose the econ war.
Why the hell does the "defensive" race have so many ways to not be defensive?
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I hate that there are games where i roast all their drones with my hellions and still lose.
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having trouble TvZ.. I mean, as of now, Terran has like a billion openings and transitions that work sick well. This thread should be closed and re-opened after the invevitable Terran doomswitch arrives
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Saracen, you are a terrible human being for spreading such knowledge, if you are human at all. I hope a baneling is waiting in your bed tonight.
In somewhat related news, does terran have a decent counter to sling/bling/muta? I go this every game and since I can transition to ultraling, it just murders terrans.
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On August 02 2010 14:07 Saracen wrote:Hey let's jump on the Korean Zerg bandwagon. I hear they're really tearing shit up. But, they actually are. Well, it was more stunning yesterday when like it was 6 Zs with like 70%+ win ratios in the top ten, but it's down to five now.
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the second combatEX vs Chill !!! it must happen!!!
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On August 03 2010 00:40 Bair wrote:
Saracen, you are a terrible human being for spreading such knowledge, if you are human at all. I hope a baneling is waiting in your bed tonight.
In somewhat related news, does terran have a decent counter to sling/bling/muta? I go this every game and since I can transition to ultraling, it just murders terrans.
Please send me a replay/BO. ZvT makes me cry at night. I tried a few Muta builds, but every-time I ended up with 4 Mutas and a few Lings meeting a Bio ball that crushes me.
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Nice read ! Even though I am a Zerg player I haven't met those builds to much or not at least the thor drop. The others pop up every now and then. And don't tell the public about marauders / Hellions : / Scary build !
Nice read anyways !
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On August 02 2010 23:34 Grimjim wrote:
1 base Bio push, 1 base Hellion push, 1 base Tank push, Reaper harass into Hellion harass into another god damn Tank push. Thorshop, Tank drops, cloaked Banshees. And if any of these don't win the game outright, he expands and I lose the econ war.
Why the hell does the "defensive" race have so many ways to not be defensive?
Yeah, Zerg is supposed to be aggressive but the myriad of Terran options and the inability to scout them means Z has to immediately assume the defensive in this matchup - and stay defensive until tier 3. It sucks.
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I love this post!
My favorite essays to write back in my college days were the ones where we would use irony to prove our point.
That being said, while this is clearly written to prove a point with sarcasm, it's also pretty damn true.
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On August 03 2010 01:00 Grimjim wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2010 00:40 Bair wrote:
Saracen, you are a terrible human being for spreading such knowledge, if you are human at all. I hope a baneling is waiting in your bed tonight.
In somewhat related news, does terran have a decent counter to sling/bling/muta? I go this every game and since I can transition to ultraling, it just murders terrans. Please send me a replay/BO. ZvT makes me cry at night. I tried a few Muta builds, but every-time I ended up with 4 Mutas and a few Lings meeting a Bio ball that crushes me.
I have no set BO beyond a 14 pool 15 gas. After that it is all what I scout. Before you get mutas out, you should have a sizeable amount of speedlings and a good enough map awareness to morph some to banelings depending on the bioball approaching.
When you get mutas, do not get many. I win by using banelines/speedlings to melt their ground army, and use muta harass to delay them rebuilding it while I outmacro.
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On August 03 2010 02:21 Bair wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2010 01:00 Grimjim wrote:On August 03 2010 00:40 Bair wrote:
Saracen, you are a terrible human being for spreading such knowledge, if you are human at all. I hope a baneling is waiting in your bed tonight.
In somewhat related news, does terran have a decent counter to sling/bling/muta? I go this every game and since I can transition to ultraling, it just murders terrans. Please send me a replay/BO. ZvT makes me cry at night. I tried a few Muta builds, but every-time I ended up with 4 Mutas and a few Lings meeting a Bio ball that crushes me. I have no set BO beyond a 14 pool 15 gas. After that it is all what I scout. Before you get mutas out, you should have a sizeable amount of speedlings and a good enough map awareness to morph some to banelings depending on the bioball approaching. When you get mutas, do not get many. I win by using banelines/speedlings to melt their ground army, and use muta harass to delay them rebuilding it while I outmacro.
But what if they don't go bio? What if they have a good enough wall to deal with any number of potential banelings and just build up a mech army?
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Yep it's not only that but Terran is ridiculous cheap in 2v2 too. Proxy reapers + anything = instant win. Reapers kill all early game units and with support from your ally in attacking there's no way you can lose. Proxy reapers also have you come out economically ahead of your opponents in most games.
Thanks for the tricks!
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On August 03 2010 02:23 fdsdfg wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2010 02:21 Bair wrote:On August 03 2010 01:00 Grimjim wrote:On August 03 2010 00:40 Bair wrote:
Saracen, you are a terrible human being for spreading such knowledge, if you are human at all. I hope a baneling is waiting in your bed tonight.
In somewhat related news, does terran have a decent counter to sling/bling/muta? I go this every game and since I can transition to ultraling, it just murders terrans. Please send me a replay/BO. ZvT makes me cry at night. I tried a few Muta builds, but every-time I ended up with 4 Mutas and a few Lings meeting a Bio ball that crushes me. I have no set BO beyond a 14 pool 15 gas. After that it is all what I scout. Before you get mutas out, you should have a sizeable amount of speedlings and a good enough map awareness to morph some to banelings depending on the bioball approaching. When you get mutas, do not get many. I win by using banelines/speedlings to melt their ground army, and use muta harass to delay them rebuilding it while I outmacro. But what if they don't go bio? What if they have a good enough wall to deal with any number of potential banelings and just build up a mech army?
Unless it's a 2v2 map with shared mains, I can't imagine mech being popular in 2v2. You just can't help your ally. This is speculation btw.
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On August 02 2010 12:15 Floophead_III wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2010 12:01 kNyTTyM wrote:
edit: ZvT currently feels like TvP in brood war. I went through this exact same phase when I was learning terran and losing every game to those shitty b.net protoss players. Every freaking build they did was retarded (10/15 gate, reaver drop, dt expand, dt drop, bulldog, fast carrier, fast arbiter recall, 2 base 7 gate on python). Not only were their builds ridiculously strong but their standard units were freaking crazy. LoL I drop zealot on mine and tank explodes. The list goes on and the variations (putting two together ala 2 base reaver -> carrier) was even more deadly. I know how this feels all to well and we'll get past it soon. I think this is actually a pretty good comparison. I don't feel like ZvT at high level is imbalanced at all, with the exception of hugely terran favored maps like LT or Kulas. Zerg however requires a great knowledge of timings, compositions, much better mechanics, and excellent scouting and information processing. Terran just requires making a wall, making units and attacking. I think we'll see zerg be considered "not as viable" or "underpowered" for a while until zerg players pass a certain skill level, similar to TvP in BW. I do think that T needs a handful of nerfs, however. Turrets are too strong, marauders shouldn't get or benefit from stim so much, and reaper speed should be back to 100/100.
Very nicely said. Indeed, you need some time for "standard" builds to appear, and by standar I mean Builds that can deal with anything "decently".
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I think I'll try out some of these builds in the OP for fun, when I can the chance.
Yesterday I played an impromptu T off-race against a decently good player who mains Z. In the end I was decisively beaten, but throughout most of the early and mid game, I was essentially improvising a build.
"Oh, a couple reapers sounds good here--let's get nitro packs. What, enough gas for factory? Why the hell not, and start making some reactor hellions. Alright, let's get a starport for a drop while I wait for hellions to finish. Ok, ok, the drop ended, what the hell should I do with the starport? I know, cloaked banshees! Wow, I have a bit of minerals gas...let's expand and get thors!"
While it certainly wasn't a polished build, TvZ was hella fun for me because I felt that even as I was constantly switching up my units, it still felt like it could work well.
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HAHA, great post especially the 116 part. 'it has come to my attention that 116 of you civilians are poor at TvZ.
Nice strategies though, keep them coming. I need all the help I can get!
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so can we have the opposite thread as well with some great ZvT openings ?
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On August 03 2010 07:08 MapleLeafSirup wrote:
so can we have the opposite thread as well with some great ZvT openings ?
Sorry, this matchup doesn't work like that.
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On August 03 2010 07:13 Saracen wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2010 07:08 MapleLeafSirup wrote:
so can we have the opposite thread as well with some great ZvT openings ? Sorry, this matchup doesn't work like that.
what do you mean?
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On August 03 2010 11:03 GGTeMpLaR wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2010 07:13 Saracen wrote:On August 03 2010 07:08 MapleLeafSirup wrote:
so can we have the opposite thread as well with some great ZvT openings ? Sorry, this matchup doesn't work like that. what do you mean?
He's trying to imply that Zergs can't come into a ZvT with a build because Zergs will be busy trying to react to the Terran's build. This is because Zergs can't really scout the Terran with their wall off. Terrans could be going hellion, 3 tank push, bio ball, MMM, drop hellions, thor drop, mech and Zerg wouldn't be able to scout it behind their wall.
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On August 03 2010 02:23 fdsdfg wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2010 02:21 Bair wrote:On August 03 2010 01:00 Grimjim wrote:On August 03 2010 00:40 Bair wrote:
Saracen, you are a terrible human being for spreading such knowledge, if you are human at all. I hope a baneling is waiting in your bed tonight.
In somewhat related news, does terran have a decent counter to sling/bling/muta? I go this every game and since I can transition to ultraling, it just murders terrans. Please send me a replay/BO. ZvT makes me cry at night. I tried a few Muta builds, but every-time I ended up with 4 Mutas and a few Lings meeting a Bio ball that crushes me. I have no set BO beyond a 14 pool 15 gas. After that it is all what I scout. Before you get mutas out, you should have a sizeable amount of speedlings and a good enough map awareness to morph some to banelings depending on the bioball approaching. When you get mutas, do not get many. I win by using banelines/speedlings to melt their ground army, and use muta harass to delay them rebuilding it while I outmacro. But what if they don't go bio? What if they have a good enough wall to deal with any number of potential banelings and just build up a mech army?
The only sizable pushes I have experienced early on were based completely on bio. Anything after lair tech, you should have a few options. In my style of zerg, I regularly sacrifice overlords for scouting. I put down tech buildings I do not need (roach warren/hydra den) so I can adapt on the fly, but ultimately, if sling/bling/muta doesn't do it for me, it frees up enough time for me to go ultra/ling, which decimates terran. I mean really, I am not sure what terran can do against ultra/ling that is really effective assuming equal footing.
Really, even against pure mech, their immobility and your mobility make it pretty easy to catch your opponent out of position and unaware. The hellions are the only thing that stop Sling/bling/muta from completely rolling them. You take those out, whether it be by surprise banelings rushing in where your opponent thought was safe, or sniping with mutas, it does not matter. Tank/Thor/Marine/Marauder falls to baneling/speedling, and even harder if you have a few ultras murdering all things armored.
It is gas heavy, sure. But there is nothing like putting the fear of the rolling green squishie into a terran's heart :3
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Damn you Saracen, you got me!
I read this thread as a Zergplayer with mixed feelings and then suddenly want to hate Terran all over again, although my win percentage vs. Terran is close to 70% right now. I really took it seriously for a minute or two. You hit the proud tone of the Gosuterrans' imbaness alarmingly well...
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On August 03 2010 00:49 koppik wrote:But, they actually are. Well, it was more stunning yesterday when like it was 6 Zs with like 70%+ win ratios in the top ten, but it's down to five now.
4 now with T and P on the rise (just to be pedantic). Not that such a small sample size really matters.
(23% zerg over top 100 on there)
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EPT
