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Oh Team Liquid,
I have run into another dilemma involving void ray rushes. I am a high plat/low diamond player (Zerg) and with my current build cannot seem to get out T2 anti-air quite fast enough.
I considered using the build order tester, but then I remembered "Oh yeah, I can't play toss, woops". So instead, I would like diamond toss players to use the build order tester to tell me how quickly they can get their first void ray out.
Here is was my build (on average): 9 overlord, 14 pool, 15 hatch, 15 queen, 17 overlord, 18 gas, 19 queen, and around 28-31 started up the lair I guess.
This of course (as I found out the hard way) lead me very open to void ray rushes, not so much banshees really. Anyway I modified it so that I double-gassed when I would normally single gas.
It did indeed stop void ray rushes, but that was way too early for a zerg player (unless I decide to do 2 hatch muta) I lost to more things like the 4-gate and MM early pushes.
So please, I want to see when my second gas should go up, so all you diamond level toss players please post:
-The time it takes for 1 void ray (in real seconds)
-The build order you used to get it
-And of course your level of play
PS: Please keep in mind this is not a competition, I don't want people to lie about it just to look cool on TL. Just be honest, I need the real times for this to work.
Thanks, Bio
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Get 2-3 queens per base if you suspect VR, with transfusion they pwn VRs.
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Im a mid-platinum player, nothing too special. but in order to help you, are you talking about a legit, commit to void ray rush with five or six or are you talking about them getting a single void ray to min harrass? also it depends on if you want to include my time doing a proxy or if you want a legit build? it varies a lot with me, if you tell what the specs are ill be glad to help you xD
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Just build 2 queens, 3 if you want to stay tier 1 for a while. Void Rays just really are that strong early.
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faze with 2 void rays > 3 queens? i thought that was the case that made them oped? And now since you can faze with charge...o_O makes it even rougher on the zergs right?
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I do in fact mean a single void ray, but I would also greatly appreciate how soon you can get larger numbers. I mean, I may be in an instance where they do in fact commit to several void rays, so I would like to be prepared for that to.
And I'm not talking queens guys, that was not my question or request at all.
Thanks
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if you suspect VR just add 3rd queen and get creep between main and nat. When void ray comes your queens can heal each other to fight off the VR. Later on your 3rd queen can be used to shit out creep tumors and support your hatch when you get your 3rd up.
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You are talking queens though. Zerg should rely on queens to fend off fast void ray everytime, unless you are fast teching to mute or hydra but whoooo ever does that
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On July 23 2010 09:33 ionlyplayPROtoss wrote:
if you suspect VR just add 3rd queen and get creep between main and nat. When void ray comes your queens can heal each other to fight off the VR. Later on your 3rd queen can be used to shit out creep tumors and support your hatch when you get your 3rd up.
....................... please thread before you post on it.
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dude theres a reason you cant get T2 anti air out fast enough - YOU ARE NOT SPOSED TO BE ABLE TO
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On July 23 2010 09:37 ZataN wrote:
dude theres a reason you cant get T2 anti air out fast enough - YOU ARE NOT SPOSED TO BE ABLE TO
I don't want to be quivering in my seat waiting for the next queen. And I don't want to be forced to make units I don't want to just because my opponent. That is the reason most zerg die quickly. The opponent transitions. LIke in TvP where toss will go void rays to get them to make marines, and then will transition into a marine... killing.... unit... like ummm.... speedlots I guess, but as day9 teaches us we should not change our builds to account for things that may happen, but to just happily continue on with our build.
Now I know a queen doesn't sound like much, but I personally get a ton of upgrades from my hatches. (I like burrow really early with any build.) So at the end of the day my build will have been changed quite a bit.
Can I pleeeeease just get a time? Thanks
Bio
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Take gas later(20-21), get speed before lair, get a third queen whenever playing blind.
Your question of the timing of the void ray attack is kind of irrelevant, because it will always come before you have hydras anyway. Void ray is one of the easiest builds to play against because if you go speed before lair and start cranking lings at around 36, you can very often end the game or get a huge advantage with ling aggression. If it turns out you were wrong and he was actually 4-gating or doing some sort of robo push, you've got a ton of extra lings to defend. You will pretty much always have hydras up when/if he invests in multiple void rays.
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Using the QXC build tester, and chrono boosting the stargate, I managed to get a void ray out in 5 minutes and 53 seconds, which is 353 seconds.
Of course this is probably not the fastest possible way to get one out, but it serves as a good reference in the sense that we know it can't be slower than this...at least
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I just tried it in a build order tester. With constant probe production, and no zealots or other units produced, the first void ray came out at 5:36. With 2 zealots produced, it was at 5:52. Keep in mind, I never rush void rays so I'm not extremely well practiced, but it flowed pretty well. Was a high diamond player in beta.
Was a typical 9 pylon/12 gate build, delay warp gates for the stargate, saving 2 chronoboosts for the void ray.
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On July 23 2010 09:25 zhul4nder wrote:
faze with 2 void rays > 3 queens? i thought that was the case that made them oped? And now since you can faze with charge...o_O makes it even rougher on the zergs right?
Browder recently said they were aware of fazing (he even called it that) and that it will be fixed.
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Just make 3-4 queens. I think its silly not to tbh. You can just mass creep tumors like no tomorrow and take over the map 3 times as fast plus they have the transfusion spell and their a decent anti air unit.
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On July 23 2010 09:42 Bio wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2010 09:37 ZataN wrote:
dude theres a reason you cant get T2 anti air out fast enough - YOU ARE NOT SPOSED TO BE ABLE TO I don't want to be quivering in my seat waiting for the next queen. And I don't want to be forced to make units I don't want to just because my opponent. That is the reason most zerg die quickly. The opponent transitions. LIke in TvP where toss will go void rays to get them to make marines, and then will transition into a marine... killing.... unit... like ummm.... speedlots I guess, but as day9 teaches us we should not change our builds to account for things that may happen, but to just happily continue on with our build. Now I know a queen doesn't sound like much, but I personally get a ton of upgrades from my hatches. (I like burrow really early with any build.) So at the end of the day my build will have been changed quite a bit. Can I pleeeeease just get a time? Thanks Bio
Wow if you don't want to be forced into making units just because of your opponent, you must have a hell of a time in ZvT. I'm sure D9 doesn't mean not to get early antiair when you see an early air attack coming. He means don't freak out and tech directly to spire just because you see one marauder because someone told you "mutas counter marauders". You MUST account for what your opponent is doing in your build and make sure you're flexible to do so.
For instance, you say you like early burrow--why do you like to do this? Are you making heavy roaches/infestors? The third queen typically comes out of your second hatch and before burrow is an option. Are you getting rushed by VRs when you're still one basing? because you shouldn't be. If you're rushing to hydras so early to just account for one VR, your build is likely going to be weak and will fail to a lot of very standard openers.
That being said, dealing with VRs is relatively easy as zerg, if you make a third (and then maybe a fourth) queen early when you suspect it, it's very easy to repel while teching to hydras (and roaches, don't discount the possibility of a heavy speedlot army transition early from the VRs, it will mess up low numbers of hydras). What you should do is plan to adapt your build in certain situations. For me, I incorporate the extra queens in standard play vP on maps like scrap station and close position (air) LT/metal. If you can get an OL into his base early you can find if there's something missing, probably VR tech, or what else is coming at you.
Also, the third and fourth queen are not useless. You plan on transitioning to a third and fourth base at some time, right? You already have a queen. You have extra queens and extra defense if a strong push kills off a queen or if you need transfusion or extra creep. It's a good idea.
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My fastest time was 5:15 (game time).. had a 3rd void ray at 6:40.. did a few mistakes could probably get 3rd out at 6:30.. but I would never go for 3 void rays since.. that would be pretty dangerous I think.. the first void ray comes out pretty easily but getting the 2nd and 3rd one are pretty much all my minerals I have at the time which I dont like since I would rather be using the money for like some zealots/stalkers/sentries/tech..
And yeah.. getting queens if you expect void rays isnt bad.. which is why I never go voidrays vs zerg.. If it fails thats ALOT of money wasted and queens are useful for the zerg.. I like safer builds like.. 10 gate fast expand..
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Using the QXC BO tester I got one out in just under 4 minutes. I'm not sure if this is game time or real-time but that's what the number is in the corner.
My BO was pretty simple just:
-Pylon
-Gateway
-Assimilator
-Cyber core
-Stargate
as soon as I could, pumping probes the whole time. Hopefully someone can corroborate or tell me if my time is not right.
EDIT: Looking at some other people's numbers, I suspect that the time is real time and game time would be closer to 6:00. I'll try it on YABOT.
EDIT 2: Yep, QXC is a dirty, dirty man. 5:30 is more like it. Props to those who did it faster, I'll have to iron that out a bit.
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On July 23 2010 09:42 Bio wrote:
Can I pleeeeease just get a time? Thanks
As Day nine would say, just pick a time arbitrarily and go with it. See how it plays out after a lot of games (not 1 or 2) and then make a decision to try it a little earlier or later.
If however it does not play out, then I think you need to consider that what you are trying to do might not be possible.
On July 23 2010 09:42 Bio wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2010 09:37 ZataN wrote:
dude theres a reason you cant get T2 anti air out fast enough - YOU ARE NOT SPOSED TO BE ABLE TO I don't want to be quivering in my seat waiting for the next queen. And I don't want to be forced to make units I don't want to just because my opponent. That is the reason most zerg die quickly. The opponent transitions. LIke in TvP where toss will go void rays to get them to make marines, and then will transition into a marine... killing.... unit... like ummm.... speedlots I guess, but as day9 teaches us we should not change our builds to account for things that may happen, but to just happily continue on with our build.
Forcing and responding are key parts of Starcraft. Just because you don't want to respond does not mean that is the right choice. If the Protoss goes DT you can't just say "I shouldn't have to get detection, I should be able to happily continue with my build". The same goes for air or a large variety of other threats that your opponent uses.
I feel the problem is that you are misinterpreting Day9, or not listening to the rest of his points. In many videos he talks about the relationship between your build and other peoples. If for example in ZvT you open banelings. Day9 says you know that you will beat 'this chunk' of openings. (eg mass marines, fast expands etc). So you only need to worry about a handful of other possible openings, and 'make sure you have a plan' for them. Fast voidray is one such example of this. You already know the chunk of openings your build works well against. This is not one of them, so have a plan to transition (or weave in) whenever your opponent goes Void Ray opening.
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EPT
