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Hi I've been watching some games and played a few in the past where the protoss player went mass stalkers. It seems like a pretty strong opening that is hard to handle if you don't see it coming.
I wonder how well the 1/1/1 mech opening fares against a mass stalker opening and how to adjust to it. Is there a sure way to know if the opponent is going mass stalkers? I find it really hard to tell what I'm going to be up against because they seem to be able to pump out an army so fast with 3-warp gates and saved up chrono-bost.
I can see getting an early Raven and a defensive PDD may help somewhat but the amount of stalkers is usually overwhelming. Getting siege as early as possible may be another option. What about Banshees + cloak? I don't know the timing I suspect it will take too long. Is it any idea to tech switch to mauraders after wasting minerals/gas on getting a factory and starport down?
So my question is how do you spot if the opponent is going mass stalkers and what do you do if you went with the 1/1/1 opening?
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Sweden33719 Posts
Well, I always go fast raven with the 1/1/1 opening - basically I do something like this:
10 sup (no wall)
12 rax
13 gas
15 OC
Marine
16 sup
reactor+2nd gas
Factory (reactor will finish just before/after you start this)
Nonstop marines
Add starport after you add techlab to fac.
Make tank
Sup
Techlab on starport
Scan protoss base.
2nd tank, followed by raven (or raven before 2nd tank, preference I guess, there'll be a slight downtime while you wait for the gas)
You get a fuckload of marines, can be aggro with tank raven marine, or just sit back and expo. You also have an early raven so it will build up energy for PDD, or it can be used to mess with his probes (auto-turrets are really good for this).
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If I list what I think are the two best strengths 1/1/1 opening has against protoss, it's Voidray and heavy stalker.
Doing 1/1/1 you just play like normal vs. mass stalker. You keep building marines, you keep building siege tank from the factory, then when you don't scout a stargate for void ray so you don't need viking, get a Raven.
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I am unable to survive a 3gate + robo timing push when I do the 1/1/1. The bunker goes down extremely fast.
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point defense drone. Or just get your tanks at a choke point. Or pick up some marauders
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tanks absolutely rape stalkers
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On June 02 2010 06:46 link0 wrote:
I am unable to survive a 3gate + robo timing push when I do the 1/1/1. The bunker goes down extremely fast.
Replay?
You probably expand to early, or slip up on some unit production.
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Mech> Mass Stalker
Tanks > Stalkers as Tanks > Dragoons
You may to need to worry about blink since if they're going MASS stalker, blink could be a viable option. Sensor towers will help out, trust me. You always want good positioning, try to make their units funnel thru one choke or valley, e.g. Metropolis is a good start.
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Do you get siege mode for tanks right away? Or can they handle stalkers well enough without siege mode?
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Honestly if they are building almost nothing but stalkers mech wouldn't be too great b/c of blink (tho against stalkers tanks are better off not being in seige mode and just auto attacking... their dps in that mode is crazy).
If you know they are going all stalkers based on their composition then the 1/1/1 will help by getting you a quick medivac. Get a tech lab on the fact while you build the port then switch them. Build a fast raven followed by medivac. All the while you're building MM off one rax.
A pure stalker build will get melted by MMM in the worst kind of way. Throw in a raven and you might only lose a couple food after the first fight.
Directing this to the OP i think a 1/1/1 build against mass stalkers shouldn't be transitioned into mech considering how mobile a stalker army is. A MMM of 1/1/1 with the fact maybe for an occasional tank (non seige) will win every time.
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Yeah, just got owned by mass blink stalkers. My opponent began with a forge FE and I decided to push early with 8 marines and 2 tanks to apply early pressure as the Expand was just established, but as I fought the mass stalkers, the protoss player researched Blink and my seiged tanks were reduced to rubble. He then proceeded to blink into my base and it was GG. I feel as though a raven wouldn't have helped as much due to mobility of stalkers, and was hoping if someone knew how to transition from 1:1:1 to bio because it simply makes the fact/port unnecessary...
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On June 02 2010 12:08 Phoenix_XY wrote:
Yeah, just got owned by mass blink stalkers. My opponent began with a forge FE and I decided to push early with 8 marines and 2 tanks to apply early pressure as the Expand was just established, but as I fought the mass stalkers, the protoss player researched Blink and my seiged tanks were reduced to rubble. He then proceeded to blink into my base and it was GG. I feel as though a raven wouldn't have helped as much due to mobility of stalkers, and was hoping if someone knew how to transition from 1:1:1 to bio because it simply makes the fact/port unnecessary...
The cool thing about 1/1/1 is that
a) it's supposed to keep you safe from ALL timing pushes cause you can just flex a little to account for everything
b) you can take your tanks and your marines and some of your SCVs on autorepair and make this neat marine-tank push if you have reason to
c)Instead of that starport going to waste on the start if protoss goes all gateway and no tech, that Raven's PDD is a very nice add, and so is banshee.
d) it sets you up to transition into bio OR mech, especially because you already have access to medivacs(medics are huge!). Just lift your buildings off the tech labs and add more barracks and just start pumping marine-marauder-dropship and get your upgrades.
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On June 02 2010 12:08 Phoenix_XY wrote:
Yeah, just got owned by mass blink stalkers. My opponent began with a forge FE and I decided to push early with 8 marines and 2 tanks to apply early pressure as the Expand was just established, but as I fought the mass stalkers, the protoss player researched Blink and my seiged tanks were reduced to rubble. He then proceeded to blink into my base and it was GG. I feel as though a raven wouldn't have helped as much due to mobility of stalkers, and was hoping if someone knew how to transition from 1:1:1 to bio because it simply makes the fact/port unnecessary...
Seige mode is pretty useless against any protoss ground army except maybe keeping collosi at bay. The dmg tanks put out in regular mode is significant and considering the size of protoss units the splash isn't going to help as much. You're MUCH better off (imo and others agree on forums) just using tanks in normal mode against protoss.
I've played against a few stalker only opponents who blink everywhere and try to base trade (you'll ALWAYS win a base trade against this as long as your standing army is stronger than his and you have at least 2 buildings that can float). I usually get 2 rax before fact because of all the cheesy toss and to counter 4gates but for 1/1/1 it isn't hard to transition to bio.
For starters the port isn't unneccessary considering a bio army is going to want medivacs. Second, having a fact isn't useless since it allows you to build reactors/tech labs while your scvs are building rax which can easily be transfered over. Assuming you don't want to use money on a sensor tower (which i'd recommend if they are doing the blink shit) the fact can be used to scout the exposed parts of your base.
Really what this battle comes down to is positioning and trying to get the stalkers into a position where they can't retreat. It is assumed that if they are going to use this strat that their army stands no chance of beating yours in a head on battle. Therefore I personally just ram down their base and either force them back or gladly base trade. The stalkers are never going to be able to beat down all your flying buildings before they can get away. If there is an island expo on this map then it's an instant win for you. Otherwise this turns into a chasing game but with medivacs and the superior army it's only a matter of time before you kill them. You can even use a single medivac with marines go go around hte map and kill their buildings while you defend your buildings with the main army.
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Against blink stalkers, use tanks but dont put them in siege mode. In siege, stalkers can blink a few right on top of your tanks and they will splash kill each other.
Tank dps vs armored targets is HIGHER not in siege. If you can prevent them reaching your tanks, siege them, otherwise don't.
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I've seen tons of people doing mass stalkers recently. Once you detect that build, you need to lift off your barracks, get a tech lab, and start building marauders. Your next production building should be a second barracks for more marauders. In addition, you should get a second raven for PDD. Also, be sure to spread out your tanks when sieged. There is a 100% chance of the Protoss getting blink, so you want spread out tanks with marauder scattered in between. You can put a Starport on the old reactor from the barracks and get medivacs for the marauders or vikings if he goes Collosi.
Here's a recent game of mine that shows you what I'm talking about. I open with 1/1/1 and he goes mass Stalker. The Protoss isn't very good (for some reason he doesn't like expanding), but it demonstrates how you can respond.
Here is a replay of me losing. It's from Patch 13 though, not sure if they've fixed the issues with watching old replays. You can watch a VOD of the game here, with advice given to me by Trump. I still did well, but I lost because I didn't get marauders fast enough.
EDIT: One thing I forgot to mention. On certain maps you just can't go mech against Protoss. Kulas Ravine is one of them. I've never beaten a Protoss of equal skill on that map with mech. Blink is just too good given the terrain. You're better off switching to heavy bio + ghosts with a very small number of tanks.
EDIT 2: I forgot that you asked about detecting the build. The first thing you build from your Starport should be a Viking. Just scout with that. I do that in my replay against SacreBleu.
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Its very difficult to transition from a 1/1/1 build, and if you continue to mass 1/1/1 they will just continue to mass Stalkers. Though what i find very effective, is adding an additional Ghost to "Emp" Stalkers make them very vulnerable to Marauders,Siege tanks, etc. Another suggestion with the Ghost is faking a nuke which sometimes helps scare workers away slowing down their economy or delays a large army from attacking your base.
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On June 02 2010 13:08 SilverforceX wrote:
Against blink stalkers, use tanks but dont put them in siege mode. In siege, stalkers can blink a few right on top of your tanks and they will splash kill each other.
Tank dps vs armored targets is HIGHER not in siege. If you can prevent them reaching your tanks, siege them, otherwise don't.
If I remember correctly that's only true for single target DPS. If you include splash, I think sieged tanks actually do better. Especially since after stalkers blink they usually are clumped up.
You can solve the blinking problem through proper tank positioning. It's true that you still will be damaging your own tanks with splash, but it's been my experience that sieged tanks still do better. I don't have numbers to back that up though; I'd be really interested in reading about some testing.
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Siege tanks have a lot of overkill. 3s per shot. The splash makes up for it, but it puts you in a dangerous spot too if they can abuse blink micro. Normal tank mode does very high dps, fast firing rate, little to no overkill. And positioning, it's not going to be in your favor a lot of times. They will catch you on the move, i see a lot of terran make the mistake of sieging up once engaged (4s is a long time). Just leave them in tank mode, they will destroy stalkers.
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On June 02 2010 13:32 SilverforceX wrote:
Siege tanks have a lot of overkill. 3s per shot. The splash makes up for it, but it puts you in a dangerous spot too if they can abuse blink micro. Normal tank mode does very high dps, fast firing rate, little to no overkill. And positioning, it's not going to be in your favor a lot of times. They will catch you on the move, i see a lot of terran make the mistake of sieging up once engaged (4s is a long time). Just leave them in tank mode, they will destroy stalkers.
Sieged tanks don't overkill in Starcraft 2. Units are hit with the perfect number of shots necessary to kill them. Unless you mean that even with the perfect number of shots there's still wasted damage. But there isn't that much. 3 tanks * 60 damage = 180. Stalkers have 80 health, 80 shields, and 1 armor. So only 18 wasted damage.
I definitely agree with you about leaving them unsieged when you get attacked on the move.
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Blink stalkers are good against siege tanks up to a certain point. You can hold the map and deter a Terran from pushing out with a lot of blink stalkers, but once Terran reaches a critical amount of siege tanks (~15), your blink stalkers become useless. Open up unit tester or try experiments with a friend, mass stalkers with blink will be decimated against sieged tanks as long as there is a good number of them.
All you need to do as a Terran is defend your main and natural from blink stalker harass until you reach that critical number, at which point you are invincible against any thing the Protoss can throw at you from the ground. The air is a different story, but you are keeping an eye on the Protoss, a similar resource army of vikings will beat any Protoss air army. Void rays lose to vikings, carriers win very slightly, but cannot be reinforced quickly and thus are not viable, and phoenix's will win slightly, but cannot effectively do much to help against the ground army.
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EPT
