EPT[G] PvZ - By Salv - Page 2
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ZomgTossRush
United States1041 Posts
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Sabu113
United States11076 Posts
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Kpyolysis32
553 Posts
Upgrades can be very useful, especially once you get to +2 attack. Colossi at this point will one-shot zerglings and that can dramatically increase your overall army damage output if your opponent is using a lot of zerglings. Other than that, there are no significant points where an upgrade will result in a vastly superior army. Super disagree. Being just one upgrade ahead makes it so that your zealots kill hydras in 5 hits instead of 6 and zerglings in 2 instead of 3. It also lets your stalkers kill hydras in 8 hits instead of 9. (+2 lets Stalkers kill hydras in 7 and lings in 3). Also, I am moderately disappointed that you never once mention one base fast stargate for phoenixes, which can work very, very well versus Zerg who don't scout it or get hydras quickly enough. Other than that, I loove it. | ||
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Salv
Canada3083 Posts
On May 31 2010 13:08 Kpyolysis32 wrote: Super disagree. Being just one upgrade ahead makes it so that your zealots kill hydras in 5 hits instead of 6 and zerglings in 2 instead of 3. It also lets your stalkers kill hydras in 8 hits instead of 9. (+2 lets Stalkers kill hydras in 7 and lings in 3). Also, I am moderately disappointed that you never once mention one base fast stargate for phoenixes, which can work very, very well versus Zerg who don't scout it or get hydras quickly enough. Other than that, I loove it. I should probably address this. What I meant by significant difference is that although the zealot will kill a zergling in two hits, zerglings are not widely used at that point the game, and zealots are not a big part of your army either, they are both resource sinks. The stalkers killing hydralisks in less hits is interesting, but considering it's the colossi that kill hydralisk, not stalkers, I am not sure that's a significant difference either. Either way, there is nothing I read here that would make me inclined to rush upgrades, which was the overall point. I never mentioned a lot of builds for a few reasons:
This was more of a PvZ Guide on how I play, and where I find success. It would be nice if I had the knowledge to include phoenix and void ray builds as well, but I have found success with the hallucination build and never looked back. | ||
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Freeheals
United States488 Posts
On May 31 2010 13:08 Kpyolysis32 wrote: Super disagree. Being just one upgrade ahead makes it so that your zealots kill hydras in 5 hits instead of 6 and zerglings in 2 instead of 3. It also lets your stalkers kill hydras in 8 hits instead of 9. (+2 lets Stalkers kill hydras in 7 and lings in 3). Also, I am moderately disappointed that you never once mention one base fast stargate for phoenixes, which can work very, very well versus Zerg who don't scout it or get hydras quickly enough. Other than that, I loove it. I mildly disagree with this, as I believe that having a single damage upgrade can give you a much greater chance, with zealots, against early units like zerglings as well as mid and, after a couple more upgrades, high-tier units as well. Often times a single damage upgrade can change the direction a particular battle is going in. Nevertheless, I just wanted to say that this guide has provided me with some great ideas! Thanks a lot for making this, Salv. EDIT: Salv commented on Kpyolysis's comment | ||
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Tippany
United States765 Posts
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Salv
Canada3083 Posts
On May 31 2010 13:47 moose162 wrote: If possible could you go into some more detail on the fast expand opening? I understand the timing on something like the nexus or first cannon depends on your opponent, but around what supplies do you usually end up placing those buildings, and how many zealots are out at that point? By fast expansion build do you mean the build where you place a 10 gate at your natural? I briefly discuss this build, but I purposely do not go in to much detail because I find the build to be less safe and overall inferior to three gate hallucination build that I use. If you are referring to the build I cover in the guide (3 gate + hallucination) here are two example replays: http://www.mediafire.com/?omjgjzmdnnm That replay is versus GDR from team vT. It was a friendly game. http://www.mediafire.com/?ezztnwjntnw This replay is versus my friend SuperiorWolf, AKA The Wolf. Also a friendly game. While I add buildings in a specific order, I don't have every thing timed, and I don't always add everything at exactly the same time. For example, in my game versus GDR, I make colossi much quicker than I do versus SuperiorWolf, and thus the actual game changes a bit overall. The actual beginnings are quite similar and show what to do versus a Zerg player that is making a lot of zerglings in anticipation of your push. | ||
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ccJroy
United States483 Posts
Appreciate the time and effort that you have put into this! I personally agree with your opening statements about PvP and another amazing guide about PvT (even though i can barely remember the last time i lost against a T, about a week ago lol) would be awesome to see in the future. Given PvZ is my worst matchup this is a great guide, thanks! Edit: I couldnt stand not to read and watch the replays even despite the time, who needs sleep anyway? Just to add on, loved the replays, showed some great play from both players and showing how protoss can come out on top (i have something like a 30% win against zerg when they go the similar builds that your showing). Will definitely put this to work, thanks alot again! Would love to see a replay where muta harass comes into play. Do you usually only see that during early parts of the game (Spire pre-hydra den?) and able to act accordingly based on what you see with your phoenix? Personally i can never move fast enough to stop the harass and before i can get my cannons up tons of damage is already done. | ||
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Torture
Canada221 Posts
I personally agree with your opening statements about PvP and another amazing guide about PvT (even though i can barely remember the last time i lost against a T, about a week ago lol) would be awesome to see in the future. Given PvZ is my worst matchup this is a great guide, thanks! I'm the exact opposite. Never had trouble with Zerg but I'm not consistent against Terran. | ||
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FaTLiP
United States57 Posts
This guide really is great. For all protoss players that want to improve their game with this is really does wonders. I play diamond and im about 70% win against zerg. I tried this strat and have only lost once so far. I think you need to address the all in roach rush. It can be held off but it did catch me by suprise. Other than that, yes, this truely is a King of all trades build order/strat. Well done. | ||
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Ahzz
Finland780 Posts
:D lol | ||
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Salv
Canada3083 Posts
On May 31 2010 19:55 Ahzz wrote: Nice guide man, it's no ultimate zerg guide, but its a good guide nevertheless! :D lol Well, we can't all write Ultimate Zerg guides haha. On May 31 2010 14:45 justinsroy wrote: Would love to see a replay where muta harass comes into play. Do you usually only see that during early parts of the game (Spire pre-hydra den?) and able to act accordingly based on what you see with your phoenix? Personally i can never move fast enough to stop the harass and before i can get my cannons up tons of damage is already done. If you open with the build I describe, you will be able to consistently scout with your phoenix. There should never be a time where you lose to surprise mutalisks, as there is no excuse for not seeing the spire due to the very easy scouting. If you open with 10 gate pressure from your natural, surprise mutalisks can be a problem, and it's not a sure-thing that you will be able to see them coming and prepare to defense in time to take no damage. However with the 3 gate hallucination opening, you will be able to always scout, and thus you can add cannons beforehand. If you have a replay where you open with this build and you die to quick mutalisks, just post the replay and I'll take a look at it to see where your mistake was. The entire reason I use this build is because of the consistent information I always have on the Zerg. On May 31 2010 15:52 FaTLiP wrote: @ salv. This guide really is great. For all protoss players that want to improve their game with this is really does wonders. I play diamond and im about 70% win against zerg. I tried this strat and have only lost once so far. I think you need to address the all in roach rush. It can be held off but it did catch me by suprise. Other than that, yes, this truely is a King of all trades build order/strat. Well done. I don't think I have played more than two or three people who have done an all-in roach rush, that would be off of one hatchery, right? I would probably change what I am doing in a situation like that, because I can clearly see their extractor and roach warren with my probe. Also, in a situation such as that, it's not necessary to play a long game, as long as you can hold off the rush on your ramp you will not lose any probes. I would most likely consider making a robotics facility with warp-tech instead of hallucination, and I would make sentry/stalker instead of zealot/sentry. You can always buy time with the sentry until you have an immortal out, and then it's just a matter of pushing and winning. Post a replay of this build however, I don't think I have ran across it ever since they changed the roaches supply from 1 to 2. Thanks for all the comments every one! | ||
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Xeln4g4
Italy1209 Posts
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Asobitai
United States20 Posts
I know you could keep forcefielding your ramp, but if you use that energy on hallucination you will become vulnerable eventually. You will have to waste more gas on sentries and then the zerg can expand/tech more quickly than your plan might suggest. | ||
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Salv
Canada3083 Posts
On June 01 2010 01:05 Asobitai wrote: It seems to me that this build is vulnerable to early burrowed roaches, how would you counter them effectively in time? I know you could keep forcefielding your ramp, but if you use that energy on hallucination you will become vulnerable eventually. You will have to waste more gas on sentries and then the zerg can expand/tech more quickly than your plan might suggest. Burrow is a lair tech, if your opponent was teching lair with only a roach warren, it's clear that this the strategy being used. In fact, if you scout a roach warren with no other tech, I would go straight for immortals and an observer. I don't see where the timing is that an opponent could effectively hurt you with burrowed roaches is what I am saying. | ||
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Immersion_
United Kingdom794 Posts
The hallucinating collossi got me thinking, there should be an achievement/would love a rep - of bluffing someone into surrendering through a hallucinated force of collosi  . | ||
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Severedevil
United States4839 Posts
On June 01 2010 03:00 Immersion_ wrote: Cheers for the post. The hallucinating collossi got me thinking, there should be an achievement/would love a rep - of bluffing someone into surrendering through a hallucinated force of collosi .Or just bluffing someone into buying lots of corruptors when you're not building colossi, or just bluffing someone into hitting your eight fake colossi instead of your two real ones | ||
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Ksyper
Bulgaria665 Posts
Would it be effective if the zerg gets like 10-15 coruptors to just 1 shot colossi? | ||
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The Nightwatchman
22 Posts
On May 31 2010 13:47 moose162 wrote: If possible could you go into some more detail on the fast expand opening? I understand the timing on something like the nexus or first cannon depends on your opponent, but around what supplies do you usually end up placing those buildings, and how many zealots are out at that point? Watch day9 episode 124, its a very in depth look at whiteRa doing this FE build. | ||
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Salv
Canada3083 Posts
On June 01 2010 03:27 Ksyper wrote: As a zerg player I've been loosing to this quite often. Would it be effective if the zerg gets like 10-15 coruptors to just 1 shot colossi? Sorry, I'm not inclined to help Zerg players beat my strategy. Just kidding! Getting a lot of corruptors can be useful as long as you have the economy to do so. You're not accomplishing anything by just destroying his colossus and having very little to deal with his remaining ground force. If you have enough money to make that many corruptors, you're probably best off just getting broodlords, which are great versus every thing. | ||
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