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This is a copy paste from the word processor, and thus there are formatting errors and it might be a little more difficult to read. These two links are to a formatted PDF file which is much nicer. I play quite a bit of SC II games and this is from I have found to give me the most success. Like any guide, there may be some things that are wrong, and if you're really good, maybe this isn't going to help you, but I tried my best and I am sure this is helpful to some users.
I might make a Protoss versus Terran guide depending on how well this is received. I won't make a PvP guide because I don't like the matchup frankly and I find a lot of it to be based on cheese and luck.
PDF (Nice quality and formatted):
http://rapidshare.com/files/393413091/ProtossSalvGuide.pdf.html
OR
http://www.mediafire.com/?mt1lgmwyywm#1
Example replays:
http://www.mediafire.com/?omjgjzmdnnm
That replay is versus GDR from team vT. It was a friendly game.
http://www.mediafire.com/?ezztnwjntnw
This replay is versus my friend SuperiorWolf, AKA The Wolf. Also a friendly game.
Introduction to Protoss – By Salv
In Starcraft Brood War, the Protoss race was mostly dependent on knowledge. Protoss mechanics were never really difficult, there were some micro skills to be developed, but being successful at Protoss didn't hinge on this as much as it did for Terran and Zerg. To be a strong Protoss player, you needed to be smart, that is why I was drawn to it. Starcraft is a strategy game, and I've always felt that Protoss is the race that best encompasses that, whereas some of the other races are based more heavily on your mechanical skill.
The Protoss in Starcraft II fortunately fit the same role. The least mechanical aptitude is required to be successful. What's important is your knowledge of counters, timings, and overall intelligence and creativity. A lot of the Protoss spells are versatile and can be used in interesting ways, with force field being the absolute best example of this.
That being said, the same potential drawbacks to the Protoss race remain. Often times you will be the defender, or will be forced to play patiently. A lot of games can revolve around your opponents' tactics and your skill at stopping their attempts, some times it can feel that you're not in control of the game and are only reacting to what your opponent does, this is something that you must get used to.
A few basic points to cover before getting in to the first match-up (MU from now on) in this guide (PvZ):
Warp gates are your friend. Warp gates are necessary in any Protoss game. The flexibility of warping in units is unparallelled, and the units also take less time on cooldown, which means four warp gates are more efficient than four gateways. While you won't rush warp gate tech in ever scenario, the upgrade is mostly peanuts (50/50) and just takes time, so it's wise to start early.
Sentries are the best Protoss unit in the game. When I first started playing, I neglected the sentry on the grounds that it was a waste of money better spent elsewhere. The irony is that the sentry is the most important unit the Protoss has. The versatility is absolutely unparallelled. Force field is the best new ability in SC II, and creative uses of it can turn the tides of battles and buy you precious seconds. Do not neglect the sentry ever.
Robotics tech reigns supreme. A lot of discussion is on the viability of the templar tech paths. The fact is that the templar tech paths are inferior, you will always need a robotics facility at some point in the game, and you will never need the templar tech, you can always do with out. The robotics tech path gives you the shuttle (essentially), and two very different units for very different circumstances in the immortal and colossus. The templar tech tree is slower to get and provides one unit, either the high templar (HT) or the dark templar (DT). Simply put, neither of these units are as effective as the robotics tree units, and while can be used to go effect, they are just not as consistent as the robotics units and thus are not used.
Lastly, and related to the above point: you must tech. This isn't SC:BW where you could get away with zealot/dragoon all game like in PvT, you have to get robotics facility in every match-up, and you have to do so quickly. There are variants in which that isn't necessary, but I find this style inferior and it isn't what I find effective.
Protoss vs Zerg
Introduction & Early Game
PvZ is an interesting match-up. Compared to BW PvZ, SC II PvZ is much easier. Mutalisk are easier to deal with, hydralisks and roaches can be hard countered, and lings are generally much less effective. The only unit that will consistently give you trouble is the brood-lord, there simply isn't a effective way to deal with this unit, it's hard to stop, but by the time they are on the field, you should have netted a generous advantage, or have already lost the game.
Other than that, the PvZ match-up revolves around three units for the Zerg: hydralisk, roach, & corruptor, and four units for the Protoss: zealot, stalker, sentry, & colossus. Other units are used, but they are situational and are used as such, they are never always going to be used, whereas the above units (with maybe the exception of the roach) are always used.
You first must decide between two styles of play: one base or fast expand. The fast expand is the more popular style, but I would say it's more difficult to play. The fast expand style is essentially a 10 pylon, 10 gateway in your natural. You will chronoboost out zealots to your opponents base while continually adding pylons and probes. While applying pressure, you can take your natural and add a forge. Because SC II has any adjacent buildings being complete walls, your pylon, gateway, forge combination can easily seal off your natural or come pretty damn close. Finish it off with a cannon or two and you have essentially hurt the Zerg's economy by forcing them to produce units and not drones, and taken your expansion.
The downside to this build is that scouting is going to be tricky. You need to rely on your knowledge and intuition, because other than complete luck, you will not be able to see what they are teching to, and because you have two nexxi to pump probes from, gases to take, and tech to create, you will have a small army, which means scouting around with that is difficult. Even if you rush hallucination or a robotics facility, you can be hit by a quick muta rush or by quick hydralisks trying to break your front. The best way to play this out is by scouting out additional expansions, if you see a third base for the Zerg while you are taking your gases at your main and nat, you can assume that quick tech isn't coming and you can get away with one cannon in your main, and potentially none at your natural. If the other player hasn't expanded, it's best to put two in your main and one at your natural along with your army. It's a riskier style of playing but can pay dividends because you hurt their economy while growing your own.
The other style to play is one base. There are a lot of variants: four gate rush all-in, fast expand, void rays etc. The style I play is the one base fast expand style, it's very safe and allows for quick and easy scouting, to me it's the epitome of standard, and as such I will be assuming that this is what you will also be doing. I don't have a set timing for each building, but I do make them in a specific order:
9 pylon (10 pylon if two player map)
13 gateway (10 gateway if two player map)
Assimilator
Pylon (zealot first if two player map)
Cybernetics core
Zealot (if four player map)
Pylon
Two gateways – sentry – upgrade hallucination
It's key that you make the sentry before hallucination. If you try hallucination first, then your later sentry will not have the 100 energy required and it won't do you any good, besides the hallucination can be chronoboosted to make sure it finishes around the time your first sentry has 100 energy. All three gateways should be pumping sentries when you have 100 gas, and zealots when you do not. I chronoboost only my nexus and never my gateway, make sure you time pylons well. One protip is make sure you don't accidentally hit 'G' on the keyboard. If you accidentally use guardian shield that can delay your hallucination by twenty seconds, which is a big deal.
Explaining Hallucination: Hallucination is the ultimate scouting tool. You can hallucinate units you do not even have, meaning that if you want to hallucinate a colossus at this point, you can, or a phoenix, which is what we will use to scout.
Explaining the Build: PvZ is a little different in SC II because of the inject larvae ability. If both players play completely passive, the Zerg wins. They will be able to pump out a ridiculous number of drones if you let them, and then no amount of good play can bring you back. This build is designed to add pressure and make the opponent waste larvae on units, meanwhile you can expand behind this and set yourself up for mid game.
You're going to want to use your hallucination ASAP and you're going to look for a few things. Firstly, how many zerglings does he have? Some Zergs will try to all-in you by hoping you attack and they can simply attack-move all over you, with the phoenix you'll be able to see this and react accordingly. Also, you want to check if they are quick teching or not. Your tech choice after expanding depends on what they make, so it's critical to be consistently scouting, and with our hallucination upgrade, we can do this easily.
They will either have a lot of zerglings, spine crawlers, or neither. If it's the latter, just attack now and win the game. The other two options are a bit different. If they have massed zerglings, you should be expanding (you will have about eight units at this point, five to six sentries and two to three zealots). However you cannot move out to pressure, and you don't want to, they have done your job for you. They have committed to zerglings, so if you can avoid taking damage, they will have hurt themselves. Sitting at your ramp while adding your expansion is fine. If they move in the damage it, fight back and use force field if he tries to surround. Their zergling mass is only effective if you move out, if you sit back passively, they are ineffective.
Spine crawlers are a bit different, you can still move out across the map and potentially win. The best situation would be to attack and force field on the ramp to prevent reinforcements. With practice you'll be able to figure out when it's worth while to do this and when it isn't. Generally, two spine crawlers with no support you can attack, where as two spine crawlers with a queen or some zerglings probably isn't worth trying to break. Either way, create your expansion and keep sending phoenix's to their base and natural until you see their tech. Depending on what they make, your next steps diverge.
Middle Game
The middle game begins when you have made your expansion and are beginning to tech. Your Zerg opponent at this point in the game has two options: expand and play a macro game, or tech and try to deal damage. You shouldn't have much problem with the latter, you should still have your sentries (or most of them) and will be able to keep sending hallucinated phoenix's every so often to scout out the opponent. The most common aggression your opponent will do are mutalisk. At this point you have sentries and no other anti-air, so they can do a lot of damage if they come while you are unprepared.
Mutalisks: Mutalisks, a very annoying unit in SC I is much more manageable in SC II. Sentries and stalkers overall are cost effective versus mutalisk, if your Zerg opponent tries to fight a combination of sentry and stalker he will lose quite badly, this is because of guardian shield mostly. Guardian shield reduces incoming missile attacks by two damage, which means not only is the initial mutalisk glaive reduced, but the bounce damage is also reduced.
However a good player will never engage your units like this, they will use mobility. You cannot effectively use just ground units to defend your bases, that isn't effective, you will need anti-air or static defense.
If you scout a spire being put down with your hallucinated phoenix, first check to make sure that there isn't a hydralisk den also. It's not uncommon for a Zerg to place both tech buildings in the hopes that you will over commit to defending one unit while they make the other. If both are being put down, check to see if hydralisk are being made, if it's just drones, then it's best to cannon up your main and natural with two cannons in the main, and one in the natural. You don't need as many at your natural because your army is there as well. Two cannons are stronger in SC II than they were in SC I, so you don't need three, two will be just fine until your army can get there.
If the opponent makes mutalisk, the key will be to see how many they make. If they continually make more mutalisk or are reinforcing their group, it's best to add a stargate. Phoenix's (non-hallucinated of course) are very effective versus mutalisk and can still be useful to you later in the game. For example, phoenix's are adept at killing mutalisk, lifting up and kill hydralisk, and sniping drones or queens later in the game. It's well worth the investment to deter mutalisk harass and to have that versatility later on in the game. If you did a build like 10 gate pressure from your natural, it can be tricky to tell when they are teching to quick mutalisk, and that is why I prefer this build, it's very similar but allows much easier scouting which makes situations like this more manageable.
Other than mutalisk, an opponent can try to mass units and break your front. This is very uncommon and you won't see it a lot, mostly because it's ineffective and be seen coming. It's easy to force field your front to buy yourself time, and colossi are usually on the way. There isn't much to say about this tactic, you will see that the opponent is making a lot of units and hasn't expanded. This is fine for you because they will not have to economy to match your army. It's fine to add cannons and cut probes to feel comfortable in the off-chance that they decide to attack, just make sure they haven't expanded, or else cutting probes and adding unnecessary static defense can be a hindrance.
If your opponent goes a macro game instead then you will most see the Zerg making roach hydralisk & zergling, hydralisk & zergling, or just hydralisk. In any of these situations, the response is the same. Personally, roach/hydralisk is seemingly the best composition. Hydralisk alone will be killed too easily by your colossi, whereas roaches are more durable and are not useless on DPS (damage per second), they do quite a bit of damage to sentries and zealots. If your opponent simply masses a ground force however, you will win quite easily, a Zerg ground force versus a Protoss ground force is simply not an even battle. The Zerg will need to even the battle against your colossi & tier one unit composition.
Colossi versus Immortals: Immortals are good early game versus roach play, and are very useful for breaking Zerg static defense such as spine crawlers, but other than for these two purposes, they are not exchangeable for colossi. Colossi are very good versus hydralisk, and quite good versus roaches, they will be your key unit for defeating the Zerg forces.
Therefore a typical army composition for both players will be:
Protoss
Sentries - Useful for force fields and guardian shield, only a few are needed.
Zealots - Useful when your gas resources are running low but you still have warp-gates off cool down
Stalkers - The main unit you will be making other than colossi. Provide good DPS versus Zerg units, are suitable tanks for incoming damage
Colossi – The main DPS force of your army. More will be discussed on this unit.
Zerg
Hydralisk – The main DPS force of the Zerg army. Fragile unit overall, melts under fire from colossi.
Roach – Not always used, but a good tank for the hydralisk. They take far more damage before dying than a hydralisk does, and can deal respectable DPS against the proper targets.
Zerglings – Used by some Zergs as they provide another line of units that the colossi will auto-target before attacking the hydralisk. Also used as a resource sink when the Zerg is out of gas.
Corruptors – The anti-colossi unit. More will be discussed on this unit.
Infestors – The exchangeable unit for the corruptor, has the role of disrupting the colossi. Much easier to play against than corruptors overall.
The stalker and colossi combo are very effective and cost efficient. They can together handle almost any composition the Zerg throws at you. Keep in mind that sentries are still useful for their guardian shield, and when you run out of gas, zealots are better than nothing at all (although adding gateways is good in certain situations).
The Zerg is aware they cannot fight you on even ground without an equalizer versus the colossi; the corruptor is this equalizer. The corruptor is an anti-air unit that does bonus damage to massive units (colossi and capital ships). They also have the ability corruption, which will target a unit with this green mist visual, and units under this effect will take 20% additional damage. This is mostly just used to increase the DPS of the corruptors against your units.
Fighting Corruptors: I have done extensive testing and found that the most effective way to deal with corruptors are to just ignore them. They will kill your colossi, but not before your colossi deals with their entire ground force, leaving a stalker/sentry/zealot combination still alive and ready to cause damage. As long as you continually make colossi, you should never be at the point where the colossi die too quickly to deal enough damage aginst the opposing ground force. That doesn't mean you cannot try to deal with corruptors, but during battles, it is best to simply let your colossi and stalkers deal DPS to the ground force. If you try to micro colossi away, you're doing the Zerg a favour. A colossus cannot out-ran a corruptor, and all you are doing is lowering your damage output by having a colossus run around aimlessly with out the slightest chance of getting away.
Void rays can be used to deal with corruptors, and they are useful for a few reasons. Reason one is that a corruptor will auto-target a void ray over a colossi. So if you Zerg foe is not manually targeting the colossi, they will attack void-rays, which is ineffective because the colossi are the highest damage dealing units, but they also do not do their bonus-damage in this case, and are thus lowering their own DPS as well. Four void-rays are all you will ever need versus the Zerg's corruptors, as once they are charged, they do massive damage to corruptors, taking out a full-hp one is about four seconds.
After expanding, dealing the Zerg's next moves and adding two robotics facilities, the timing for your main attack will come when you have four colossi. Four colossi are exponentially better than two colossi, four just seems to be that magic number where the opposing army melts, where anything under this isn't as effective as it needs to be. You will not being able to deal with the corruptors on your first attack, if the Zerg is good, they will wind up killing your colossi, but not before you have dealt with the ground army. This next part is critical however, you have to quickly do whatever damage you can and then retreat.
It is also critical that your first resource spending after the robotics support bay will be the thermal lance. Four colossi with out the thermal lance upgrade are about as useful as zero colossi. Unless you need a colossi immediately to assist with some sort of quick all-in bust, always upgrade thermal lance, which increases the colossi range of attack to nine. It takes a long time to finish, but will be done by the time you have three to four colossi, I wind up chronoboosting the upgrade once at most, and spending the rest of colossi, it makes your first attack come quicker and is thus more effective.
Protip: Make sure that you take an expansion as you move out for your first attack. The Zerg doesn't have the forces to dedicate another squad of units to stopping an expansion attempt, so make sure that as you move out you clear a nearby base of units or overlords and take that expansion.
Method of Attacking: By far the most important piece of knowledge when attacking is the never move straight at the Zerg. Be unpredictable with your movements, attacking one direction, then moving back a bit and switching directions. Never let the opponent know exactly which way you will attack from. This serves two purposes: Firstly, you will be able to pick off a lot of stray overlords this way, which adds up for the Zerg. Secondly, it's critical not to be flanked by the Zerg. Colossi will be at the back of your army dealing damage safely with their nine-range. If you allow a Zerg to flank you, they will be focused down and killed relatively quickly, and that will probably end the game for you immediately. Be unpredictable.
The reason why it is critical to deal your damage with your remaining colossi-less ground force and then retreat is that a tier one Protoss ground army is incredibly weak versus roach/hydralisk. With inject larvae, a Zerg can regroup and replenish their lost army very quickly, so it isn't long before a healthy group of Zerg units will be fighting a colossi-less army, and if that happens, you will lose every thing while dealing very little damage. It is sometimes best to retreat right away, but if you are near a Zerg expansion, it can be worth it in move in and focus on the hatchery and then taking off.
Keep pumping colossi from your two robotics facilities and then adding more stalkers. If you didn't lose your remaining ground force, you will be in a good position. It is at this point that I find adding a stargate and making void-rays to be useful. If you didn't happen to thin out the opposing players corruptor numbers much, you are going to need some sort of way to deal with them. However if you were able to snipe most of them off after dealing the ground force, you can get away with doing a similar void ray-less attack.
Upgrades: Upgrades can be very useful, especially once you get to +2 attack. Colossi at this point will one-shot zerglings and that can dramatically increase your overall army damage output if your opponent is using a lot of zerglings. Other than that, there are no significant points where an upgrade will result in a vastly superior army. Colossi get +4 every upgrade and thus it's well worth it be upgrading. I like to make a forge when I am making my first robotics facility, and this ensures that by your second attack, your +2 weapons will easily be finished.
Late Game
You are now at the point of late-game. You will have three bases, and the opposing Zerg will have any where from three to five. The battle will continue to play out very similarly to mid-game, with very little difference in terms of army composition. It's possible for drops to be included, as well as the bane of Protoss; brood-lords.
Like in any match-up, when the Protoss begins to spread themselves out over a bigger area of space, drops and sneak attacks become increasingly harder to deal with. A protoss army isn't very mobile, and it can take a while to get from one area to another. Colossi's wall-walking ability can help this slightly, but when you are dealing with a big army, it isn't helpful when your colossi arrive early and the rest of your army is still lagging behind. The best way to avoid this type of attack is to continually apply pressure. It's only when you give the Zerg time to breathe that they deviate and begin to apply different modes of attacking. Applying pressure doesn't ensure that you avoid sneak attacks, but it helps a lot.
What also helps a lot are warp-gates. You can pump out units almost any where on the map, and if you use chronoboost, the cool-down time is very short. Often you can warp in some units to keep an army busy while you main force makes their way over there. The addition of cannons to your main or key expansions can also be useful in buying time, but you don't want to cut in to your main armies force too much, or else you're buffing one area of your game and weakening another. There really isn't a good way to deal with this, you just have to take in stride and do your best.
Brood-lords are the most annoying unit to deal with. Broodlings do quite a bit of damage if you let them pile up, and often your colossi will waste their damage killing these continuously spawning units rather than the hydralisks, with your stalkers doing the same. Some Protoss' find relief in blinking stalkers or high templar, but personally the void-rays do the best job. This isn't to say that void-rays will take care of a brood-lord problem quickly, but they are the most efficient counter. The good side is that brood-lords are fragile to a degree, and cost a lot, so it's rare to have to deal with more than five or six of them at a time. If you do get in to a situation where there are many of them, chances are that the game was probably over at this point and you need to fix your early and mid-game.
Ultralisks are sometimes transitioned into, but with the Patch 13 HP nerf, they die fairly quickly to any sustained damage from stalkers and colossi. Like any unit, they can do a lot of damage if you let them, but they are an ineffective choice of tech when considering the pain-in-the-ass which is called the brood-lord.
Overall, late game is very similar to mid game. There are some new annoying units to deal with, and some new Zerg tactics can cause problems, but if you are having a lot of trouble late-game, it's most likely a problem with your mid-game. Remember that a Zerg that is left alone for long periods of time are most dangerous, inject larvae allows them to mass drones very, very quickly, to the point where even flawless mid-game play can be countered easily by their superior economy.
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Awesome guide, I found it very helpful, thanks for making this!
I also feel that a one stargate voidray transition is very strong in the mid-late game no matter what the opponent does. Its versatile and has good dps. I sometimes get the +1 air up to go with this do you think its useless considering I make 4-5 void rays at most?
Can we have one for PvT as well please? 
P.S. OMG I hate Broodlords so very much!
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This is an excellent overview of the matchup. Currently this is how the matchup works and quite frankly it's not too difficult for protoss. I think getting blink early with stalkers is important (about the time you're getting those colossi started). Infestors are useless when you have blink. Blink also gives you mobility you need to fight zerg, and it's the best counter to broodlords (voidrays are nice but blink stalkers are out in advance by a longshot).
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Very nice guide, I'm gonna stick to your strategy in my next PvZ and see how well it works out 
For the sake of your awesomeness please make us an PvT guide as well <3
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Void Rays/Psi Storm work the best on Broodlords. Most Zerg players will have a ground army along with their broodlords rendering blink stalkers useless.
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Very well written, thanks.
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On May 31 2010 06:53 stet_tcl wrote:
I also feel that a one stargate voidray transition is very strong in the mid-late game no matter what the opponent does. Its versatile and has good dps. I sometimes get the +1 air up to go with this do you think its useless considering I make 4-5 void rays at most?
I feel that if you're going to spend the money on an upgrade, it should be one for your ground army, or spend that money on an additional stargate. The additional damage from +1 air weapons upgrade is probably negligible, but I haven't personally tried it so I cannot say for sure. I also agree that adding void rays after your first push is probably going to be worth it regardless. At the very least you could snipe some overlords and potentially focus down some key buildings in a Zerg's base or expansions.
On May 31 2010 07:16 Floophead_III wrote:
This is an excellent overview of the matchup. Currently this is how the matchup works and quite frankly it's not too difficult for protoss. I think getting blink early with stalkers is important (about the time you're getting those colossi started). Infestors are useless when you have blink. Blink also gives you mobility you need to fight zerg, and it's the best counter to broodlords (voidrays are nice but blink stalkers are out in advance by a longshot).
I almost never get blink personally, I'm not comfortable moving a substantial portion of my stalkers away from colossi, I can see them being focused down too easily in that case. I will give your suggestion a try however, as it may have other uses as well, and I am a fan of Protoss versatility
Thanks for the all the nice comments
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Really enjoyable guide. The idea I found most useful and surprising is to not micro away from corruptors. I always try desperately to save my Collosi from them, and it always feels extremely futile... because it is. Wonder how many battles I've lost without that advice. I'm guessing similar logic will usually apply to Vikings?
I usually have a decent cannon wall on some maps if I'm on the defensive because they are very effective against almost all zerg forces, especially compared to zealots as a mineral sink, and I find that if I force them to engage here, microing Collosi away will be very effective, as the Corrupters are forced into range of them.
Have also been trying to integrate a semi-fast expand into my play after watching white-ras excellent games in HDH. Protoss really benefits from making it to mid-game versus Zerg.
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On May 31 2010 07:57 Ndugu wrote:
Really enjoyable guide. The idea I found most useful and surprising is to not micro away from corruptors. I always try desperately to save my Collosi from them, and it always feels extremely futile... because it is. Wonder how many battles I've lost without that advice. I'm guessing similar logic will usually apply to Vikings?
Yes, I would say so. The only micro you should do with your colossi is to make sure they are not focused upon by ground forces. If an opponent moves in hydralisk or marauders to try to get in range, it's perfectly acceptable to move the colossi away, but when you're under attack from anti-air units, it's best to ignore them. By microing away from anti-air units, you aren't accomplishing anything. You colossi is no longer dealing damage, but you aren't refraining from taking damage, the AA units will just follow the colossi and shoot. Microing against ground targets work because the chasing ground units won't be able to get past your stalkers, and thus by microing in that situation, you will be doing good.
If you want to personally test this, use QXC's unit tester and try a few scenarios. One of the scenarios you can try is to have one battle of stalker/colossi vs corruptor/hydralisk. Try a scenario where you simply attack move, and then try targeting the corruptors with your stalkers, you will lose more units in the latter scenario. In fact, I tested multiple scenarios to come up with good counters to corruptors, I tried high templar, archons, focus fire, etc. The top two ways I found to deal with them is to either ignore them completely (fine for mid-game where they only have five or six), or to use void rays (which is most likely to be in the later game after having a third).
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Salv, yesterday I was in an ums and a guy was named "Salvatore" so I /f add him and say hello, but it wasn't you. There are impostors....
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Thanks a lot. I really had no idea how to PvZ or ZvP during my games as random D: until now :D
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Atm im a fan of the blink stalkers over the void rays for taking down the brood lords but shall give the void ray a go. Anyway great guide thanks!
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I haven't read the whole thing yet, but it looks really good. I'd really love a PvT guide because I hate that matchup. I think I've just gotten so completely crushed by some Terrans in the past and it's psyched me out so I just randomly mess myself up. It'd be nice to have a better frame of reference.
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Great read. I'm now trying out Protoss and all my matchups are weak so this will really help. I'd love a PvT guide as well.
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Great guide, I will be implementing much of it into my game, have one question though:
You have little on early game fast expand by zerg, given that 80% of zerg I play (diamond) now do late pool and fast expand, maybe you should talk more about that. It's usually fairly easy to deny or break the hatchery which slows zerg down (though maybe thats what you mean by early pressure). But you g2 be careful to not over commit, which i have done a few times=(
Do you prefer to proceed with 1 base fe anyway?
Edit: for people that are fairly new to the MU, it will be helpful to add more info on early game reaction to scouting. i.e. you scout a 2 player map with your 1st pylon probe, see no pool or w/e zerg gas is called, you can pretty much assume f.e. and react by chronoing lots
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Hallucinated phoenix luring queens away and making them hard to find = T_T
Sweet guide, now I will destroy you easily... >:D
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Great pvz guide! Just broke into diamond league last night (hooray!)... and went 0-4 vs zerg. (boo) Hopefully I can implement some of your ideas and strategies into my play so I'm not scared of this matchup.
Do you have any thoughts on a 1 gate -> robo -> gate play? Allows for faster immortal/colossi play as well as obs for scouting.
Would also love to see a pvt guide
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On May 31 2010 09:29 iokke wrote:
Great guide, I will be implementing much of it into my game, have one question though:
You have little on early game fast expand by zerg, given that 80% of zerg I play (diamond) now do late pool and fast expand, maybe you should talk more about that. It's usually fairly easy to deny or break the hatchery which slows zerg down (though maybe thats what you mean by early pressure). But you g2 be careful to not over commit, which i have done a few times=(
Do you prefer to proceed with 1 base fe anyway?
Edit: for people that are fairly new to the MU, it will be helpful to add more info on early game reaction to scouting. i.e. you scout a 2 player map with your 1st pylon probe, see no pool or w/e zerg gas is called, you can pretty much assume f.e. and react by chronoing lots
Personally, I never pressure with gateways. The most common opening is 10 gate pressure at the natural, and then you expand behind this. I don't do this however because at midgame it's very hard to scout effectively. An observer will be out too late to see mutalisks, and overall it's just difficult to find out what they are doing. The build I use allows pressure, a quick expansion, and hallucination for easy scouting. In the example that you gave, I would do my build as normal. If they fast expand, that is fine, when you scout with your first hallucinated phoenix, you can see if they have massed zerglings. If they haven't, you can push them and try to kill them, at the very least by going outside of their natural you will force him to spend larvae on units and/or spine crawlers.
The build I do is nice because there isn't much you need to react to. The opening itself is safe versus everything (except maybe a six pool or something, but nothing is 'safe' versus that), and you only need to react to what you see from your first phoenix, which I included in the guide. If no zerglings, pressure, if a lot of zerglings, they did the job for you and weren't droning, you can just sit back and expand.
On May 31 2010 11:03 foxyboxing wrote:Great pvz guide! Just broke into diamond league last night (hooray!)... and went 0-4 vs zerg. (boo) Hopefully I can implement some of your ideas and strategies into my play so I'm not scared of this matchup. Do you have any thoughts on a 1 gate -> robo -> gate play? Allows for faster immortal/colossi play as well as obs for scouting. Would also love to see a pvt guide
I used to play with a quick robotics build for the observer, but I stopped using that build for a few reasons. If you leave a Zerg alone, they can make far too many drones and their economy will become exponentially better than yours. You need to pressure them no matter what, which means you have to have units. A robotics build is great for scouting, but if you see that they don't have much to defend with, you don't really have much of an army to do anything. You will see that you need to pressure, but you don't have the resources to do so.
The problem I had when pressuring with 10 gate was that I couldn't scout effectively afterward, so I looked to make a build where I could effectively pressure, but at the same time be safe in case of a cheesy play (mass zerglings), and make sure that after the harass I could still scout easily (hallucinated phoenix).
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letting him expo this early unpunished seems like it will give him eco advantage and by the time you pressure he will have time to drone up/build few crawlers and lings. But I have not tried your build so not sure.
You are right on the spot with the scouting however, this is exactly the problem I ran into after taking out f.e. Lost to muta when I expected hydra or vice versa, though you can continue to pressure with lots into his base very carefully and use that to buy time before better scout options.
p.s. between not trying to argue vs you, judging by your post you are a better P player than I am, just thinking of possible problems
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congrats for your guide its very pro!! In this awful times of noobish post in strat section, your guide bring light to the darkness =)
waiting for pvt and pvp advices.
gl
ps: why no fast starport instead of hallucination? the cost its not so different, and timing similar, but u can do damage or just mass phoenix and win using nony's style.
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enjoyed the guide. thanks!
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Well written. I think you should add something in about the 2gate for the early game. Tester and I think White-Ra use it to such great effect and it seems to be a pretty stable opening. Either because my macro isn't fantastic or some screwing other factor, I seem to get my cyber and robo up in plenty of time and even if I don't push with my initial zealots, my first push is quite strong.
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Upgrades can be very useful, especially once you get to +2 attack. Colossi at this point will one-shot zerglings and that can dramatically increase your overall army damage output if your opponent is using a lot of zerglings. Other than that, there are no significant points where an upgrade will result in a vastly superior army.
Super disagree. Being just one upgrade ahead makes it so that your zealots kill hydras in 5 hits instead of 6 and zerglings in 2 instead of 3. It also lets your stalkers kill hydras in 8 hits instead of 9. (+2 lets Stalkers kill hydras in 7 and lings in 3).
Also, I am moderately disappointed that you never once mention one base fast stargate for phoenixes, which can work very, very well versus Zerg who don't scout it or get hydras quickly enough.
Other than that, I loove it.
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On May 31 2010 13:08 Kpyolysis32 wrote:Show nested quote +Upgrades can be very useful, especially once you get to +2 attack. Colossi at this point will one-shot zerglings and that can dramatically increase your overall army damage output if your opponent is using a lot of zerglings. Other than that, there are no significant points where an upgrade will result in a vastly superior army. Super disagree. Being just one upgrade ahead makes it so that your zealots kill hydras in 5 hits instead of 6 and zerglings in 2 instead of 3. It also lets your stalkers kill hydras in 8 hits instead of 9. (+2 lets Stalkers kill hydras in 7 and lings in 3). Also, I am moderately disappointed that you never once mention one base fast stargate for phoenixes, which can work very, very well versus Zerg who don't scout it or get hydras quickly enough. Other than that, I loove it.
I should probably address this. What I meant by significant difference is that although the zealot will kill a zergling in two hits, zerglings are not widely used at that point the game, and zealots are not a big part of your army either, they are both resource sinks. The stalkers killing hydralisks in less hits is interesting, but considering it's the colossi that kill hydralisk, not stalkers, I am not sure that's a significant difference either. Either way, there is nothing I read here that would make me inclined to rush upgrades, which was the overall point.
I never mentioned a lot of builds for a few reasons:
- I don't use those builds
- Because I don't use them, I am not entirely comfortable explaining them thoroughly, I am more likely to make a mistake and give wrong advice
- Personally I view those builds as inferior
This was more of a PvZ Guide on how I play, and where I find success. It would be nice if I had the knowledge to include phoenix and void ray builds as well, but I have found success with the hallucination build and never looked back.
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On May 31 2010 13:08 Kpyolysis32 wrote:Show nested quote +Upgrades can be very useful, especially once you get to +2 attack. Colossi at this point will one-shot zerglings and that can dramatically increase your overall army damage output if your opponent is using a lot of zerglings. Other than that, there are no significant points where an upgrade will result in a vastly superior army. Super disagree. Being just one upgrade ahead makes it so that your zealots kill hydras in 5 hits instead of 6 and zerglings in 2 instead of 3. It also lets your stalkers kill hydras in 8 hits instead of 9. (+2 lets Stalkers kill hydras in 7 and lings in 3). Also, I am moderately disappointed that you never once mention one base fast stargate for phoenixes, which can work very, very well versus Zerg who don't scout it or get hydras quickly enough. Other than that, I loove it.
I mildly disagree with this, as I believe that having a single damage upgrade can give you a much greater chance, with zealots, against early units like zerglings as well as mid and, after a couple more upgrades, high-tier units as well. Often times a single damage upgrade can change the direction a particular battle is going in. Nevertheless, I just wanted to say that this guide has provided me with some great ideas! Thanks a lot for making this, Salv.
EDIT: Salv commented on Kpyolysis's comment
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If possible could you go into some more detail on the fast expand opening? I understand the timing on something like the nexus or first cannon depends on your opponent, but around what supplies do you usually end up placing those buildings, and how many zealots are out at that point?
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On May 31 2010 13:47 moose162 wrote:
If possible could you go into some more detail on the fast expand opening? I understand the timing on something like the nexus or first cannon depends on your opponent, but around what supplies do you usually end up placing those buildings, and how many zealots are out at that point?
By fast expansion build do you mean the build where you place a 10 gate at your natural? I briefly discuss this build, but I purposely do not go in to much detail because I find the build to be less safe and overall inferior to three gate hallucination build that I use. If you are referring to the build I cover in the guide (3 gate + hallucination) here are two example replays:
http://www.mediafire.com/?omjgjzmdnnm
That replay is versus GDR from team vT. It was a friendly game.
http://www.mediafire.com/?ezztnwjntnw
This replay is versus my friend SuperiorWolf, AKA The Wolf. Also a friendly game.
While I add buildings in a specific order, I don't have every thing timed, and I don't always add everything at exactly the same time. For example, in my game versus GDR, I make colossi much quicker than I do versus SuperiorWolf, and thus the actual game changes a bit overall. The actual beginnings are quite similar and show what to do versus a Zerg player that is making a lot of zerglings in anticipation of your push.
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Amazing guide, skimmed through it due to the late hour and will read/download later.
Appreciate the time and effort that you have put into this!
I personally agree with your opening statements about PvP and another amazing guide about PvT (even though i can barely remember the last time i lost against a T, about a week ago lol) would be awesome to see in the future.
Given PvZ is my worst matchup this is a great guide, thanks!
Edit: I couldnt stand not to read and watch the replays even despite the time, who needs sleep anyway?
Just to add on, loved the replays, showed some great play from both players and showing how protoss can come out on top (i have something like a 30% win against zerg when they go the similar builds that your showing). Will definitely put this to work, thanks alot again!
Would love to see a replay where muta harass comes into play. Do you usually only see that during early parts of the game (Spire pre-hydra den?) and able to act accordingly based on what you see with your phoenix? Personally i can never move fast enough to stop the harass and before i can get my cannons up tons of damage is already done.
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Thanks for the great guide Slav, confirms a lot of the things I've been doing in my limited experience.
I personally agree with your opening statements about PvP and another amazing guide about PvT (even though i can barely remember the last time i lost against a T, about a week ago lol) would be awesome to see in the future.
Given PvZ is my worst matchup this is a great guide, thanks!
I'm the exact opposite. Never had trouble with Zerg but I'm not consistent against Terran.
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@ salv.
This guide really is great. For all protoss players that want to improve their game with this is really does wonders. I play diamond and im about 70% win against zerg. I tried this strat and have only lost once so far. I think you need to address the all in roach rush. It can be held off but it did catch me by suprise. Other than that, yes, this truely is a King of all trades build order/strat. Well done.
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Nice guide man, it's no ultimate zerg guide, but its a good guide nevertheless!
:D lol
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On May 31 2010 19:55 Ahzz wrote:
Nice guide man, it's no ultimate zerg guide, but its a good guide nevertheless!
:D lol
Well, we can't all write Ultimate Zerg guides haha.
On May 31 2010 14:45 justinsroy wrote:
Would love to see a replay where muta harass comes into play. Do you usually only see that during early parts of the game (Spire pre-hydra den?) and able to act accordingly based on what you see with your phoenix? Personally i can never move fast enough to stop the harass and before i can get my cannons up tons of damage is already done.
If you open with the build I describe, you will be able to consistently scout with your phoenix. There should never be a time where you lose to surprise mutalisks, as there is no excuse for not seeing the spire due to the very easy scouting. If you open with 10 gate pressure from your natural, surprise mutalisks can be a problem, and it's not a sure-thing that you will be able to see them coming and prepare to defense in time to take no damage. However with the 3 gate hallucination opening, you will be able to always scout, and thus you can add cannons beforehand.
If you have a replay where you open with this build and you die to quick mutalisks, just post the replay and I'll take a look at it to see where your mistake was. The entire reason I use this build is because of the consistent information I always have on the Zerg.
On May 31 2010 15:52 FaTLiP wrote:
@ salv.
This guide really is great. For all protoss players that want to improve their game with this is really does wonders. I play diamond and im about 70% win against zerg. I tried this strat and have only lost once so far. I think you need to address the all in roach rush. It can be held off but it did catch me by suprise. Other than that, yes, this truely is a King of all trades build order/strat. Well done.
I don't think I have played more than two or three people who have done an all-in roach rush, that would be off of one hatchery, right? I would probably change what I am doing in a situation like that, because I can clearly see their extractor and roach warren with my probe. Also, in a situation such as that, it's not necessary to play a long game, as long as you can hold off the rush on your ramp you will not lose any probes. I would most likely consider making a robotics facility with warp-tech instead of hallucination, and I would make sentry/stalker instead of zealot/sentry. You can always buy time with the sentry until you have an immortal out, and then it's just a matter of pushing and winning.
Post a replay of this build however, I don't think I have ran across it ever since they changed the roaches supply from 1 to 2.
Thanks for all the comments every one!
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Weren't you the one supposed to get a present today? Thank you very much and have a great birthday!!!!
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It seems to me that this build is vulnerable to early burrowed roaches, how would you counter them effectively in time?
I know you could keep forcefielding your ramp, but if you use that energy on hallucination you will become vulnerable eventually. You will have to waste more gas on sentries and then the zerg can expand/tech more quickly than your plan might suggest.
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On June 01 2010 01:05 Asobitai wrote:
It seems to me that this build is vulnerable to early burrowed roaches, how would you counter them effectively in time?
I know you could keep forcefielding your ramp, but if you use that energy on hallucination you will become vulnerable eventually. You will have to waste more gas on sentries and then the zerg can expand/tech more quickly than your plan might suggest.
Burrow is a lair tech, if your opponent was teching lair with only a roach warren, it's clear that this the strategy being used. In fact, if you scout a roach warren with no other tech, I would go straight for immortals and an observer. I don't see where the timing is that an opponent could effectively hurt you with burrowed roaches is what I am saying.
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Cheers for the post.
The hallucinating collossi got me thinking, there should be an achievement/would love a rep - of bluffing someone into surrendering through a hallucinated force of collosi .
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On June 01 2010 03:00 Immersion_ wrote:Cheers for the post. The hallucinating collossi got me thinking, there should be an achievement/would love a rep - of bluffing someone into surrendering through a hallucinated force of collosi .
Or just bluffing someone into buying lots of corruptors when you're not building colossi, or just bluffing someone into hitting your eight fake colossi instead of your two real ones
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As a zerg player I've been loosing to this quite often.
Would it be effective if the zerg gets like 10-15 coruptors to just 1 shot colossi?
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On May 31 2010 13:47 moose162 wrote:
If possible could you go into some more detail on the fast expand opening? I understand the timing on something like the nexus or first cannon depends on your opponent, but around what supplies do you usually end up placing those buildings, and how many zealots are out at that point?
Watch day9 episode 124, its a very in depth look at whiteRa doing this FE build.
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On June 01 2010 03:27 Ksyper wrote:
As a zerg player I've been loosing to this quite often.
Would it be effective if the zerg gets like 10-15 coruptors to just 1 shot colossi?
Sorry, I'm not inclined to help Zerg players beat my strategy. Just kidding! Getting a lot of corruptors can be useful as long as you have the economy to do so. You're not accomplishing anything by just destroying his colossus and having very little to deal with his remaining ground force. If you have enough money to make that many corruptors, you're probably best off just getting broodlords, which are great versus every thing.
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This guide did a great job of explaining the state of the PvZ MU. Great contribution to the community. Good job man, as a fellow tosser I'm looking forward to any advice you may have in the future regarding other MUs!
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i normally go for gate+forge expand builds, but i can't always rely on them and when i can't i feel clueless as to how to operate on one base, this was really insightful and im gonna try these things out right now! ^^ thanks much for the contribution, will be looking forward to a pvt!
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I'd just like to say a hearty thanks for writing this whole guide up, and I for one would very much appreciate a PvT guide as well if you have the time.
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Thanks a lot for the comments!
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Finally a way to play reactive against zerg! Awesome guide salv, hope you do something similar for terran
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Cool guide, very well written, it could use some extra formatting to make it look pretty. The simplest thing you could do is just bold your 'Introduction', 'Early Game', 'Mid Game', and 'Late Game' titles.
I'm surprised you can handle a growing muta ball mid-game with stalker/sentry/cannons. In my experience, if toss makes cannons at his main + nat, I take that opportunity to take a 3rd (usually high-yield) and end up way ahead with 3base 3/4/5hatch + 3queen macro.
Usually I only end up losing to a protoss that counters my mutas by using either phoenix or archons. I can usually beat a colossus + ground army by using muta/roach + just enough corruptors to counter the colossus (usually 2-3 per colossus does the trick). From a supply cost standpoint I can maintain a 3:1 corruptor:colossus ratio (always comes out in my favor), and I usually have the econ to support it by having a 3rd base up and running before 4 colossus + thermal lance are ready.
Anyway it's possible I haven't played any really good protoss colossus users.
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On May 31 2010 07:57 Ndugu wrote:
Really enjoyable guide. The idea I found most useful and surprising is to not micro away from corruptors. I always try desperately to save my Collosi from them, and it always feels extremely futile... because it is. Wonder how many battles I've lost without that advice. I'm guessing similar logic will usually apply to Vikings?
I usually have a decent cannon wall on some maps if I'm on the defensive because they are very effective against almost all zerg forces, especially compared to zealots as a mineral sink, and I find that if I force them to engage here, microing Collosi away will be very effective, as the Corrupters are forced into range of them.
Have also been trying to integrate a semi-fast expand into my play after watching white-ras excellent games in HDH. Protoss really benefits from making it to mid-game versus Zerg.
Trying to run the colossi away from air to air units is almost never a good strategy. Colossi are meant to be dps units, low health and high damage. The only time you want to run from air units with colossi is if you are running towards something that can kill the air.
Cannon walls are better at stopping zerg rushes, but zealots can be carried over to midgame to pad your army and colossi.
Sentries are your best friend if you try to expand against a zerg opponent.
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On June 02 2010 05:31 bobcat wrote:
Colossi are meant to be dps units, low health and high damage.
haha, if colossus are meant to be low health units blizzard fucked up royally
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Two quotes that stood out for me:
On May 31 2010 06:17 Salv wrote:
That being said, the same potential drawbacks to the Protoss race remain. Often times you will be the defender, or will be forced to play patiently. A lot of games can revolve around your opponents' tactics and your skill at stopping their attempts, some times it can feel that you're not in control of the game and are only reacting to what your opponent does, this is something that you must get used to.
Amen. This is why I love the Protoss playstyle. Its very exciting to not have that control, and very rewarding when you pull off the right counter-strategy.
On May 31 2010 06:17 Salv wrote:
Overall, late game is very similar to mid game. There are some new annoying units to deal with, and some new Zerg tactics can cause problems, but if you are having a lot of trouble late-game, it's most likely a problem with your mid-game. Remember that a Zerg that is left alone for long periods of time are most dangerous, inject larvae allows them to mass drones very, very quickly, to the point where even flawless mid-game play can be countered easily by their superior economy.
Amen 2.0. Fuck Desert Oasis. That map is so totally bullshit if the Zerg chooses not to fast expand. If he fast expands, great. Charge into either base with a Warp-Gate push and collect your win. If he goes for fast Hydras or Mutas? Consider yourself screwed. I hate winning or losing a game based on a single early decision from my opponent. The bigger the map gets, the harder it is to apply pressure to an opponent that is going to utterly rape you without pressure.
Very well-written guide, thanks. I prefer getting an early Observer for a scout, rather than Hallucinations, since that Sentry energy is so crucially important in the early game.
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On June 02 2010 02:37 BlasiuS wrote:
Usually I only end up losing to a protoss that counters my mutas by using either phoenix or archons. I can usually beat a colossus + ground army by using muta/roach + just enough corruptors to counter the colossus (usually 2-3 per colossus does the trick). From a supply cost standpoint I can maintain a 3:1 corruptor:colossus ratio (always comes out in my favor), and I usually have the econ to support it by having a 3rd base up and running before 4 colossus + thermal lance are ready.
I agree, if you don't make phoenix when they make mutalisks you're going to have a rough time. Maybe you missed this part, but I did address this:
If the opponent makes mutalisk, the key will be to see how many they make. If they continually make more mutalisk or are reinforcing their group, it's best to add a stargate. Phoenix's (non-hallucinated of course) are very effective versus mutalisk and can still be useful to you later in the game.
I learned very quickly that the best way to counter air harass is to get air units yourself. Trying to defend with ground units is a bad idea. The cannons are to hold off the mutalisks until you can get phoenix's of your own.
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WOW thanks so much for this, I play Terran and had no idea whatsoever how to play PvZ untill now, thanks man
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Very, very nice guide.
You hit the nail on the head with the positioning. I play zerg and random, and when I'm zerg vs. toss, once he has a set of colossi, my entire game-plan centers around using my creep highway to catch him in a surround. If we fight straight up, the zerg just die horribly.
It's not even just that the colossi are exposed, but if I catch him in a surround, his FF and AOE are dramatically weakened, and my infestors are WAY harder to micro against (I love infestors for how they drive the micro requirements way up in fights).
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TBH. ZvP is my best MU, as i can end it pretty mid-game usually, but when it goes to lategame and the P goes for HT over collosus, i'm usually messed over. I think its because a 200 stalker/HT army can take on most anything, including ultras..
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Nice strat I'll defiantly check it out. Although after watching the 2 replays you really didn't do much scouting with the phoenix at all, especially after how much hallucination is involved in the description.
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On June 03 2010 11:26 Stormzors wrote:
Nice strat I'll defiantly check it out. Although after watching the 2 replays you really didn't do much scouting with the phoenix at all, especially after how much hallucination is involved in the description.
Hallucination plays a limited, but critical role. The 10 gate expansion has a hard time gaining scout information, and a three gateway push is fine, but if they mass lings you will lose automatically. Probe scouting is too slow, and I needed to figure out a way to effectively scout in a way that couldn't be denied, and phoenix hallucination was perfect. After I find out their tech, I don't need to scout them any more. I might send out a phoenix to check expansions every once in a while, but I don't feel it's necessary to use hallucination past it's intended purpose. I suppose if you really wanted to you could hallucinate colossi when you battle, it's up to you to use the hallucination for further creative uses.
In actuality, you should been relieved that the hallucination is only needed for a small, but critical period, because that means any further creative uses will just add to your advantage, and aren't necessary for winning.
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Kinda like corsair in BW eh
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only read a short piece so far as im in work, looks a really good guide!! Id love a PvT as well!!! Im ofree tonight so im going to try read this before I get home so I can try some of these ideas and helpfull hints.
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EPT
