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I was playing 2v2 Plat with my brother (we're both protoss), and we got cheesed by two randoms. I have no idea how to beat this cheese other than turtling up with cannons, which is kind of stupid.
Anyways, here it is. If anyone has any tips on how to avoid this (other than stop playing 2's), I'd love to hear them.
http://www.sc2rc.com/index.php/replay/show/6600
To those who watch, thanks for your time.
Edit:
Blargh, its the wrong replay. Stupid beta version.
Anyways, in a PPvPT, Terran went 7 rax behind our shared naturals and reaper rushed, which isn't a big deal, and Protoss went 7 pylon and build 2 gates, and zealot rushed as well (His pylon and gates were next to the rax).
After the game, my brother and I stopped playing 2s because this strat seemed impossible to beat.
Here's the ACTUAL replay this time.
http://www.sc2rc.com/index.php/replay/show/6623
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Err wrong replay dawg, this only shows two protoss facerolling with toss AoE.
EDIT: or uh, maybe you are confusing the game terms? that replay is nothing like "all-in cheese".
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It can be very difficult to handle cheese in any bracket outside of 1v1.
Says its 2v2 and you are protoss up against terran and protoss. If the terran goes for a fast reaper and the protoss does some kind of 2 gate (proxy or otherwise) then its not possible as a protoss player to defend against both.
In those kind of situations, some static defense or a counter attack are your biggest tools. If both of them go for cheese, then they will have a weak economy and can be countered pretty easily.
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Yeah, I don't really think this is cheese.
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in 2v2 my #1 rule is to scout on 8 or 9. Find out if they are 6-10 pooling. If they have early gas, or if they are just missing shit in there base. If you see anything strange, de up or 2 gate.
If not, play as normal.
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Bump since he updated the post with the correct replay. I'm pretty bad at dealing with early cheese too, interested to know others advice.
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I'll give some of my experience with these situations, unfortunately I can't watch the replay at the moment, so I don't know how much of this might apply, but since you guys are talking mass reapers it sounds to me like there's enough time for some of the below:
As a first rule with any race: SCOUT If you don't know what your opponent is doing you're going to fail 9 times out of 10. I'll give my scout timings for each race that I seem to do ok with.
As Protoss
Agsinst Terran I build my pylon at 9 and immediately send that probe to scout. If I see a Techlab or can't get into their base (due to extremely early wall off) I assume reapers and immediately drop a second gateway to block my ramp (I always build my first gateway at my ramp), build a zealot outside my ramp, get a core up quick and spit out 4 stalkers inside my base. (I can always get blink to get them out later or simply kill my own gateway. This covers from any reaper cheese and gives a nice early ground army which is never a bad thing. As the game goes on I'll continue my build but every minute or so I add another pair of stalkers. It's never a bad idea to have extra units.
Against Zerg I'm a bit more cautious. As a mainly Zerg player I know how devastating my 8 pool build can be if it goes unscouted. I usually send my 8th probe immediately when it's built. That is early enough to see any 8 pool. If there is an 8 pool I build a 2nd gateway, pump zealots until I have 4-6, build a sentry or two, then continue onto my gameplan as usual. I know it may sound like a lot, but really the only thing out of the norm for my builds is getting the 2nd gateway so soon, and even that's not too big a deal. If they're going rush I'll more than be able to make it up when I defend it. As a side note, if I get there and there is no 8 pool I sometimes seriously consider double gas steal. Zerg has a very hard time with air and my main Protoss build is Phoenixes, so denying them early gas really plays well into my favorite build.
Against Protoss it's pretty easy to gauge the response. I send my 9th probe after building my pylon, as normal, and I just see what he has. If he has 4 gateways I build the same. Usually when you see 4 gateways early you can be sure it's zealots (no one can support 4 gateway stalker production early, the gas/core just isn't in place). So I either work to get the same amount of zealots or I get zealot, zealot, sentry, stalker, stalker (and continue building stalkers as needed. My game plan here is I make my 2 gateways have a single 'tunnel' between them on my ramp to get into my base at my ramp. I set my zealots to hold position in the tunnel to block it, and I let the zealots run up and throw a forcefield behind them to pin them in place. Now they're singlefile, fighting my zealots one on one, and I have my stalkers shooting at them while the forcefield ensures that can't run away; easily picking them off.
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Going PP in 2v2 is just asking to get abused by all kinds of terran/zerg openings. Reapers and speedlings are really dominant in 2v2.
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a terrible gameplay, you didnt scout, if you did you would easily see whats going on and didnt go 1gate cybernetics with no army, also your timing is off on many occasions (bombers gateway was way tooooo late)
its generally not a good idea for both player to go fast tech with absolutely no army and without scounting
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I've beaten stuff like this before, and I'm not some top-level macro god.
Usually players cheese like this because they are afraid they can't keep pace in the later game, or because they want to ring up a bunch of fast wins. Either way, they're not mentally prepared for their opening to be handled.
It's like if you go for the four move checkmate (Scholar's Mate) in chess. If the person knows how to handle it, you will auto-lose (assuming they have reasonable skill level)
Ok... so.
1 - Scout early vs Terran. You can tell if they're rushing reapers or if they don't have a full wall in started there may be a proxy. If a protoss base seems light, they have a proxy somewhere. (or cannon push)
2 - Forge first with 2 cannons at the nexus points parallel to the probe lines. Then getting Stalkers, works pretty well at defending if they come in fairly early. But you are on the defensive.
3 - If you have zealots or whatnot, and they all-in proxy rushed, you can take all your probes and zealots and attack their main and you should be able to take one of them out.
4 - Even IF you get taken out, but you hang in there as long as possible and funnel extra gas to your partner, he can turtle-tech to mutas or void rays and hit them over the top while defending. Shared units means that one of you can control the group of air units, microing them perfectly to keep them alive. (pull back the one getting hit, micro each battle precisely) While your partner has FULL attention on his main.
It's quite possible for one player to beat two players if they put SO much into early forces and not economy or gas or tech.
Of all the times I've been cheesed and one of us knocked out of a game, about 50% of the time, the other guy wins the 1-2.
If you're playing Diamond level players who are doing this cheese, they're actually hurting themselves by denying their stronger macro to kick in. If they'd be so good as to recover from this opening they were probably much better than you to begin with and they'd have won however they wanted to win.
Against even skill level, I find these cheese rushes are not reliable wins against players who are aware of it and how to counter.
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i feel so bad for these answers being suggested... I know i might not have a gosu post count, but its merely due to laziness to sign up. I hope you will take my advice for its thick content and not judge me based on forums posts. I'm going to help you the best i can. 95% of the suggestions so far all fail and would lose to any competent timing pushes or macro rushes.
First off from what I read:
1. If your losing to reapers anywhere past the 5 minute mark you just aren't scouting correctly.
2. Don't ever forge to open. Ever. Not ever. Or even when you think you should, don't/ Basically what that means you is have some sort of defense, but the opposing teammates can just spend their resources on movable forces. And 2v1 your teammate. No matter how gosu your teammate may be, in an early game its mathematically impossible to hold of with any race vs 2 of any race. Open gate/ling/rax first. NO STATIC D!.
Now for the cheese replay.
You and your teammate scouted at the right time. Good job there. The second you see no pylon and no rax/depot. You can waste time scouting but 99% of the time its going to be cheese, and most likely u wont be able to stop it from starting. Focus your attention on a nice tight bo. you instantly have to wall off. Here is the thought process you should have:
"ok the t is proxying, what is it going to be? Reapers duh!" the counter is to have a super early and chrono boosted stalker."
but wait, what about the 2 gate?
"Well i in return can't also 2 gate or i fail to the reaper. So i wall off COMPLETELY with my core and gateway." Sounds odd but here me out.
Here is what is going to happen. you get that sexy stalker out super fast and lost a few probes. While this is happening you have 2-3 zealots banging away at your core or gateway. Basically a failed cheese. Now ideally you can get your 2nd stalker out to ward that off. Worst case scenario is they power down your gateway and get 3-4 zealots in your base. Don't worry though by this point you should have at least 2 stalkers and maybe a zealot. Again losing a few probes sucks, but isn't a game changer. And remember enemy zealot you kill is 100 min, your gateway which saved your ass only cost 150. Plus you should have a backup one morphing in at this point anways.
Your goal is to survive with minimal losses. Once the reaper is properly defended you can out macro the p that 2 gated. Move out(make sure you rally to the outside of your base as soon as its safe, and again dont be afraid to kill off your own gateway, just be sure to rebuild it. Remember they just failed a cheese and lost the equal amount in their building proxy lost too) Kill the proxy and they go earn a gg. The opponents will have nothing to defend.
In summary,
Don't be afraid to completely wall off. That is the soft counter to hold off a 2gate rush.
Get your first stalker out asap, this will nullify the reaper rush.
USE chronoboost(in the rep the top p never used it the entire game)
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So, since 90% of what I said overlapped zomgtossrush I'm going to assume his comments about feeling bad for the answers you got were more directed at the one to two sentence variety ones.  But, he made an excellent point that I didn't emphasize enough so I wanted to echo what he said:
On May 27 2010 23:32 zomgtossrush wrote:
Don't ever forge to open. Ever. Not ever. Or even when you think you should, don't/ Basically what that means you is have some sort of defense, but the opposing teammates can just spend their resources on movable forces. And 2v1 your teammate. No matter how gosu your teammate may be, in an early game its mathematically impossible to hold of with any race vs 2 of any race. Open gate/ling/rax first. NO STATIC D!.
He is 100% correct. Opening with static defense, especially as Toss, is pretty much you saying 'Go kill my partner.' Immobile cannons will keep you safe long enough for any intelligent team to go slaughter your partner first and then come at you 2v1. And as zomgtossrush said, it doesn't matter how good you are, you can't win an early 2v1.
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Okay, uh, I appreciate this advice, but I feel that several of you have not watched the replay. None of the advice addresses specifically what my brother and I faced.
I am familiar with typical anti-cheese tactics; scout early, and look for anything suspicious. With Terran, for example, if there's no rax in their base, then you can bet on a proxy rax and a reaper rush. In this case, I go fast stalker. This always works for me.
Against zerg, I build my gate and pylon at the top of my ramp, forcing a narrow choke point, and place a zealot on hold position. This forces 1 on 1 engagements against zergling, where the zealot excells.
And against protoss, I just scout for an early forge, because the only real threatening protoss cheese, in my experience, is the cannon rush.
HOWEVER; this is not about any of those 1v1 scenarios. This is about a combined zealot and reaper rush.
@YourRoleModel
The cannons would be a bad idea, as Norseman and zomgtossrush said. That would leave my teammate out in the cold. Furthermore, the cannons and forge would have been the other team's cue to take the high yields. I do appreciate your advice though.
@zomgtossrush
Uh, first off, your name is hilarious.
Second, I will not judge you by your forum posts, as this is my first one lol. I'm a super forum lurker.
Now, as far as your advice, you are absolutely right, I should have blocked off my entrance and went with the fast stalkers, instead of raging about how impossible the cheese was (that's why I never chrono'd). Thanks for restoring my motivation to play 2v2 and looking at the replay.
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thanks. Yeah just relize if that ever happens again, your first goal is to stop the zealots from flooding your base, 2nd goal is to get a fast stalker. once that is done you should have a gg.
I was thinking about asking my partner if he wanted to do a 2v2 livestream. Anyone think they would be interested?
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i'd suggest rerolling terran so you can wall urself in and not have to worry about any type of all-in cheese rushes since you can just repair ur wall-in til u got 1 rine out
anyways obviously cannons are a bad idea inless you can cover ur nat with em and expo eventually. Of course if you find the proxy build a pylon at the rax's tech lab so it has to liftoff .. i don't wana say well just go 10 gate everygame and you'll be fine but its probably true. If they are gona both 7 rax? and shit.. its soo all in its not even funny so as soon as u scout it build 2 gates and pump zlots til you got ur cybercore and stop building probes completely.. use ur probes to help fight.. if you get a stalker out go straight for the reapers
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dont listen to a sinlge think the last guy said. EVERYTHING he said will help u lose.
Again never make cannons on any map, it doesnt matter if u can cover your nat, the fact remains you cant help a teammate. Dont build a pylon to stop a rax becuase all that does is cause the rax to lift for about 2 seconds and u lose that in mining time. Dont go 2 gate vs reapers cuz then ur just going to have zealots get sniped and micro untill u start losing probes. and at all means dont use ur probes to fight, 1 gate core and save probes.
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Against proxy reaper rush: put a probe on the right of his barracks.
So easy.
If he lift off, you just do not let it land. You can delay it until zealot is out at least (which is super super delay for him.)
If you fail to scout the proxy barrack, you really deserve to lose.
Without the reaper, you and your teammate can handle the proxy gate zealots no problem.
Also, you NEVER block off your ramp completely as a P, that is the same as building cannons: you cannot help your teammate.
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Wouldn't 10 gate cyber stalker kill this? Idk how to toss so well but it doesn't really matter if you lose some probes as long as you get the stalker out. I'm not sure if it's optimal for you both to do this or for one person to 2 gate zeal but once you have the stalker out you can backstab terran or toss. I'd prob go for terran. His econ is going to be crippled going 7rax reaper. I'm not sure how the minerals work out for going two gate zeal but if one person could go two gate and mine gas at the same time to trade to the person with stalkers that would help a lot. Then you save the money and time you would have spent on the cyber core.
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if u watched the replay you would understand thats(complete wall off) the only way to fend of a 2gate and reaper rush. and both were p so they had to do that.
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EPT
