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[D] The secret to High level play - Page 3

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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JohannesH
Profile Joined September 2009
Finland1364 Posts
May 08 2010 14:29 GMT
#41
On May 08 2010 20:34 Duelist wrote:
As a fomer top Age of Empires player and then Urban Terror i can tell you the best thing you can do to improve is to think for yourself. Watching replays is good if you're too dumb and can't figure out a good strategy by yourself, but i hope thats not the case because at least you seem smart enough to ask for help.

If you know math, you can easily calculate several perfect strategies for early game, with perfect economy based on resources/min, and the cost of units and buildings. Also think big, think of the overall strategy of the game, not just the build order. Adapting to different situations of the game should also become second nature to you, and that'll come with thinking and experience. If you lost a game, go watch your replay, and think what you could have done at the moment you lost. If you can't figure it out, maybe the error was made before that moment. So don't go watch how a pro would do it. Watch yourself, and THINK how you could have done it. Logic is the same everywhere, and being a progamer or a newbie won't change it. Use your brain. Don't be afraid to sit quietly for an hour and study what you can do aggainst x, different kinds of strategies and adaptations to what the oponent is doing/did.

Also use all the game has to offer, hotkeys, all the little tricks, etc. Every little thing helps. Finding some mates with equal mentality like you and with whom you can have fun in the game will help tons too. You'll help and motivate each other. Don't underestimate this

If you watch pros replays watch them faster than usual, so you get the global idea of the strategy. Because many times his specific actions are related to that global strategy, and by watching it slowly you might wrongly attribute certain action to something else. Don't get too much stopped on the details of what he is doing, at least untill you have a very good knowledge of the game. Most times something happens on purpose but some it's just random, others are mistakes, and until you don't have that game knowledge it'll be hard to be able to distinguish between those. I don't like when people start analyzing pros replays saying "why did he do x, why such angle, why at y time". Well go play yourself and study your replays getting a better game knowledge and you'll probably end up doing like him or better, have some confidence in yourself Still watching other ppl's replays is useful for the reasons mentioned above and to help you think out of the box. And if there are games with commentary like it seems day 9 does a good job, that can definitely speed up the process of learning.

Anyway, if you're really comited to being best of the best you should know some math, at least for these begining moments, where strategies are still flourishing. Make yourself good strategies. Many pros just pratice over and over until repetition tells them what build order seems best. By doing some calculus you'll know the perfect build orders, even pros will have to copy it from you. I know because i've been copied and seen some of my strategies become mainstream. lol

And last but not least, practice. After all the thinking, go put your new strategies to the test, go lose more games so you can improve even more - even the ones you win, what you could've done to make that win a stronger one. Make micro intensive games, where you focus almost only on micro, then macro intensive games, this will push you to new limits on each of these, so you'll get to know things which weren't apparent at lower levels of skill. Same for practicing in just one map. Later when you change to other maps, many times you'll be able to use the indepth knowledge you gained from playing the other to exaustion and apply it to the new one. Also by playing just one map you'll have one less thing to worry about, and will be able to focus on fewer things at each time, which for learning is definitely helpful.

So in conclusion, know the game, which units counter what, the income of gatherers/min, how many you need for specific units, buildings, etc etc, so that these infos become second nature to you, get with (a) friend(s) to share, have fun, concentrate on few things at each time, and finally think for yourself. You can get better like this much faster than just mindlessly practicing and watching pros replays.

Good luck

Good post.

Its not just practice that makes you good... Not everybody who practices, gets good.

Most important thing is to have an understanding to the game, from there you know how you should improve your micro and macro. The player with better understanding might not win vs a player with better mechanics but he's in a better position to improve. This might not be as true for SCBW, since it's so mapped out game, but definitely for a new game like SC2.

I'll also link to a good overall RTS guide written by my friend... It's got little parts of specifics of another game, smaller parts of SC reference, but 99% it applies to any RTS. Really basic stuff that a good player understands already but for beginners it should be helpful.
http://www.smuggoat.com/blog/?page_id=148
If you have to ask, you don't know.
oaax
Profile Joined March 2010
Norway38 Posts
May 08 2010 15:33 GMT
#42
Adapt. Analyze. Be stubborn in what you are going to Achieve. Learn how to control the flow of the game by beeing the one who decides what you (and you opponent) are going to do. Get better at playing mind games on your opponent. Deceive him. I'll continue this later.
ironchef
Profile Blog Joined August 2004
Canada1350 Posts
May 08 2010 21:23 GMT
#43
in short: actively figure out what youre weak at, and consciously try to improve it next time you play. Do so in manageable chunks, and do so as often as you can handle :D.
This can range from: micro, macro, strategy, speed, knowledge of your race/their race tactics . etc
How to improve on the specific areas is more complex, but theres a ton of resources, esp on TL :D The first step is diagnosing it.

In addition, you can get someone else to assess it for you, by uploading your replay. Your mileage may vary with arbitrary public critiques, but glaring holes people will typically come to a consensus.

Lastly it could be helpful to watch replays, but think a lot about the decisions and activity levels etc. Maybe check it out on your race's view, FP mode to kind of 'be there'. Also, as mentioned,some of the podcasts and commentary are fantastic to give insight, especially on your opponent race's tactics.
“Because your own strength is unequal to the task, do not assume that it is beyond the powers of man; but if anything is within the powers and province of man, believe that it is within your own compass also.” - Marcus Aurelius
ROOTFayth
Profile Joined January 2004
Canada3351 Posts
May 08 2010 21:56 GMT
#44
Just gotta use your head and think about what build you can come up with that counters a previous build you've lost to.... most importantly, volume, volume, volume, practice makes perfect ;o
bodysnatcher21
Profile Joined June 2009
Australia147 Posts
May 09 2010 15:08 GMT
#45
On May 08 2010 11:09 InternetNinja wrote:
I've been around RTS's for awhile, but never enough to get seriously competitive. Now that I'm getting curb stomped 80% of the time in SC2, I want to try and hone my skill.

What would you say is the most important element to high level play? Is it having a specific build order (I find myself throwing buildings down without any real timing)? Is it unit micro? Is it macro? When is the best time to scout (too early and you get nothing and maybe lose a worker, too late and you get nothing)?

I play as much as I can, and I watch videos of high level play, but sometimes I feel that isn't helping me much. The pros don't waste cash on tons of static def because they can micro their units around much more easily than me. They have different build orders because they can make their units count much more than I can.

I know I may be asking a lot, but if anyone could just give me their personal opinion of what I should focus on to get better, I would greatly appreciate it!


The main thing is; you need to play about 5 hours a day, preferably more.

Mass gaming is going to do more to improve your game than anything else.
Serinus
Profile Joined May 2010
United States8 Posts
May 09 2010 17:37 GMT
#46
Well, if I wanted to follow where this thread has been headed, I'd say "You've gotta have heart."

But really, no. Don't build the whole tech tree. Know what units to build to counter other units. This can be somewhat found on the help menu, but it's also helpful to understand why these units are a counter and makes it easier to remember. This is one of the primary reasons you scout. Know what buildings it takes to make what units. When you see a toss with two robotics facilities, you know immortals and colossi are likely. Immortals will not take more than 10 damage before their shields are down, so the counter to that is going to be units that are cheap, easy to mass, and do a low amount of damage. You also have to beware of colossi, which are expensive units that do lines of aoe damage, but can be hit by air attacks. So know the build that counters immortals and colossi and run it. (I'd suggest it here, but I'm bad. Banshees and more banshees?) Ideally, if you can see his actual army, you can know exactly what mix of units he's going with.

Some purposes of scouting:
1. To know their army and tech tree, as mentioned above.
2. To know their expansions/income. If they've just expanded and you had the same income before, that means they've spent 4-600 on economy that you haven't, right? So all else being equal, you should have a larger army and be able to take out their expansion. If you can't, you know you need to expand yourself soon or fall behind.
3. To know what attacks are coming and decide where you want to fight. If you see void rays coming along the right side of the map, then you know where your vikings/marines need to be to intercept them. You want to meet those void rays before they get charged up and/or have taken out a command center. Alternatively, if there's just 1-2 sitting in a vulnerable spot and waiting, you may be able to take it out before more can rally to that spot.
4. To deny your opponent this same information.
1 & 3 together help you counter a rush. You need to know they're rushing, and being closer to your base than they are, you should have the advantage in how many units you can have available for the fight by the time they get there.

Also, know the "cheese" strats and how to counter them. Against toss, always scout around your base early for a proxy pylon/gateways. Watch for an overseer that my be scouting for a nydus tunnel, etc. As toss against terran, you just always have to be ready for reapers.
wonksaggin
Profile Joined March 2010
United States73 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-05-15 13:35:23
May 15 2010 13:11 GMT
#47
When practicing have key points that you want to work on in every game you play:

- Basic mechanics. (Binding/hotkeying for army units and every structure you build. As well as strategic rally points. Awareness of food count (supply). Map awareness (scouting your opponent)

- Multitasking. (Massing (macro) and Micro-Managing your units in battle.)

- Mastering specific opening builds and timings in relation to the match-up and how to transition from early to mid to late game with those builds. (For example: specific openings against XvT XvP XvZ)

- Developing overall game sense until it becomes natural. (Watch replays of your loses and look out for key sticking points. Work on these key sticking points until they're no longer of habit.)
InternetNinja
Profile Joined May 2010
9 Posts
May 20 2010 22:25 GMT
#48
The advice given in this thread has been hugely helpful to me. I'm overjoyed at the huge response I got, especially with such a vague question. I would like to suggest that this thread be stickied in some form? That would prevent new members from asking this same basic general question over and over. There's so much good advice here, and so many in-depth posts, that I'd hate to see it drop off the front page and have someone else ask the same thing two days later.
Why use a big word when a miniscule one will do?
GUN.gun
Profile Joined April 2010
United States11 Posts
May 20 2010 23:04 GMT
#49
A good thing to remember is that it is optimal to have 3 workers per gas vein and approximately 5 drones per 2 crystals.
BigDatez
Profile Joined April 2010
Canada434 Posts
May 20 2010 23:13 GMT
#50
On May 08 2010 11:45 Rodiel wrote:
[image loading]


Now i wish this was FB where i could like that post...

Either way, I never played any RTS past the custom maps or UMS maps, etc until SC2, and now i'm in high plat. One thing you must know to do is based on your race mostly.

For Terran and Protoss: CONSTANTLY be producing probes / SCVs all game (that way once you expo, you'll have saturation there as well)

For Zerg: The big thing is to properly know when to produce drones over units. Alot of good players go through the mindset of thinking to themselves to Drone up, making the occasional combat units until they see that the enemy army is moving out, and then to unitspam.

Also, seeing when they are ABOUT to move out is useful too IE, when you see they have a critical amount of units, etc, which is then the best time to start making more units (but still some drones) until they attack.

It's really biased on the race you are IMO.
Video games > sex (Proven fact)
Hyperion2010
Profile Joined April 2010
United States122 Posts
May 20 2010 23:43 GMT
#51
I think the fastest way to improve is to just take a build and optimize it against the very easy AI, getting all the timings right down to the second. Then take that any just play against people preferably friends who can do builds against you so you can tweak your build but then play it on the ladder. Do that with a couple of builds and I think your macro will improve immensely since it will just be second nature, then you can improve your micro by actually having the units to play against. The main thing I think you need is just pure reps in a controlled setting where you can focus on one thing at a time.
My waifu for aiur!
Chriamon
Profile Joined April 2010
United States886 Posts
May 20 2010 23:49 GMT
#52
What level are you (leaguewise)? I don't know if you've done it yet, but listen to the Weapon of Choice podcasts (www.djwheat.tv). Do the "challenges" that Chill suggests. I feel that these exercises are fantastic for beginners and/or anyone who doesn't completely have the concept down.
http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/profile/274906/1/Blaze/
AeroGear
Profile Joined July 2009
Canada652 Posts
May 21 2010 00:11 GMT
#53
High level play as in making a career out of it....?

Or just enjoying top-ish rank in ladder/Random tourneys?

I would say just play ladder, and reflect upon why/how you lost. Most of the mistakes account to weaker economy, weaker macro, lack of scouting/countering your opponment. Game has very little depth once you manage those 3 aspects of it. Hotkeys will help you improve on all these, as it gives you more time to maneuver your army, think about what your opponment is doing, etc.

Playing the AI is silly, its one thing to perfect a build, its another to pull it off under pressure. Watching replays or streams, aside from entertainment is a WASTE of time. Its one thing to listen to commentaries/watch other players, its another to figure it out on your own.

This is a recurring topic.
Driven by hate, fueled by rage
Piy
Profile Blog Joined January 2008
Scotland3152 Posts
May 21 2010 00:20 GMT
#54
Always make workers, never mess up macro, never make stupid decisions, have solid build orders.

gogo
My. Copy. Is. Here.
Marou
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Germany1371 Posts
May 21 2010 00:31 GMT
#55

Direction and purpose in your strategy breeds focus, and focus is the foundation to victory.


Having good macro/micro is pretty obvious but this advice is gold
twitter@RickyMarou
PROJECTILE
Profile Joined April 2010
United States226 Posts
May 21 2010 00:32 GMT
#56
On May 21 2010 09:11 AeroGear wrote:
High level play as in making a career out of it....?

Or just enjoying top-ish rank in ladder/Random tourneys?

I would say just play ladder, and reflect upon why/how you lost. Most of the mistakes account to weaker economy, weaker macro, lack of scouting/countering your opponment. Game has very little depth once you manage those 3 aspects of it. Hotkeys will help you improve on all these, as it gives you more time to maneuver your army, think about what your opponment is doing, etc.

Playing the AI is silly, its one thing to perfect a build, its another to pull it off under pressure. Watching replays or streams, aside from entertainment is a WASTE of time. Its one thing to listen to commentaries/watch other players, its another to figure it out on your own.

This is a recurring topic.

watching replays/streams is incredibly important for becoming better. You can't become better by performing in a bubble. My terran play has drastically improved watching the korean terrans' replays.
AeroGear
Profile Joined July 2009
Canada652 Posts
May 21 2010 01:10 GMT
#57
You cant, I certainly did in WC3/TFT and still do in SC2. My terran play has improved by playing games, ladder will give you tougher opponments the higher you get.

Playing in a bubble would mean facing the same opponment or strategy every time.

I have 15 years of RTS gaming experience to draw from.
Driven by hate, fueled by rage
Whalecore
Profile Joined March 2009
Norway1110 Posts
May 21 2010 01:12 GMT
#58
Three basics that will allow you to beat 80% of the players in the world:
- Solid build orders
- Reacting to your opponents build
- Good macro
Playgu
TheMaster42
Profile Joined February 2010
United States25 Posts
May 21 2010 02:39 GMT
#59
On May 08 2010 11:09 InternetNinja wrote:
I've been around RTS's for awhile, but never enough to get seriously competitive. Now that I'm getting curb stomped 80% of the time in SC2, I want to try and hone my skill.

What would you say is the most important element to high level play? ...


Practice, practice, practice. Just play the game hours and hours, and challenge yourself as much as you can. Don't shy away from playing good players. You only become as good as the best players you're currently playing against.

And having the bare minimum of outside knowledge to know what to practice at when you lose, so that next time you face the same challenge you have a chance of overcoming it. This is where watching replays and learning strategy comes in.
WAAA
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
New Zealand291 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-05-21 02:48:54
May 21 2010 02:48 GMT
#60
playing playing playing, getting sharper and sharper. Applies to sc2!

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